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If the changes change everything all at once, then all relative
power levels change. Some of the gross infantry models are
being reduced, stuff like Mulg, but it's the entire environment
is changing. It's not like I have to play new style Fennblades into
old style op Bane Thralls. I'm sad about many of the power
downs (Mulg) but one thing still puzzles me.

I think I heard Fire Eaters are mostly the same???

It really looks like the power level of everything is pretty reduced. With the exception of jacks, which are largely the same, but cheaper and more efficient.

As for destroying playstyles, I'm pretty much onboard even though it hurts. The changes to recursion kinda suck for cryx, especially since our units are designed to be used with debuffs and terrible (but reusable) stats. But it destroys the outliers where you steamroll a game because you models you just brought back not only killed the stuff capable of blending infantry, but possibly adding more corpses/souls to further your advantage.

I kinda enjoy reading people complaining about the gaspy2 changes. Mainly because their complaint is that while he still does the same thing as before, it's all not as effective. He literally had game into most any matchup due to his abilities, and could easily trounce unwary/inexperienced players. Now he's a decent caster who can be used without warping the game.

So yeah, some changes invalidated signature playstyles, but I think that the changes are better for the game.

From what little I've seen so far, I'm cautiously optimistic and looking forward to the new edition, even if I do have to buy new faction decks/Warroom stuff. I'm liking that there seems to be a bigger emphasis on warjacks/beasts, and that the "infantry spam" seems lessened to some extent. How everything will play out remains to be seen, since we obviously haven't seen the full rules yet, just the spoiled cards.

I'm a little upset at the product shortage, but if it comes down to it, I'll grab my Khador deck through War Room, and buy the physical cards when they're available again.

I don't think that Mk3 is intended as a "cash grab". Wh40k 7th edition was a cash grab, coming just two years after 6th. Supposedly Mk3 has been in development for three years now, and Mk2 is now what, 6 years old? That's edition change I can get behind, especially since the rules will be free online and I don't have to buy a $75 rulebook plus $50 codex to use my army.

 RiTides wrote:
Wehrkind is a Circle player and likes the changes so far

Same here. Male Tharn units got a nice boost, Skinwalkers became tough as nuts, Ferals look to have retaken their place as *the* armour crackers, LoTF got a needed points reduction. The only thin I'm puzzle about is the nerf to the Satyrs. They got a decent points reduction too, but it's not like they were OP to begin with. But hey hoy, I still like the models, so I'll still use them.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.

You do realize that mandating 6-7 pieces of terrain in the middle of the board is going to take care of that problem, right?

The Doom and Gloom cycle has never cycled so strong.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.

You do realize that mandating 6-7 pieces of terrain in the middle of the board is going to take care of that problem, right?

The Doom and Gloom cycle has never cycled so strong.

You do realize that taking control away from players and 'mandating we play with forests' wasn't a good design choice and shouldn't be defended, right?

I've been pretty skeptical about PP's moves, but I'd actually say that there's nothing wrong with a game specifying the amount of terrain it's optimally played with. I mean, what's so different between that and saying what point size works best?

Yeah, when there are different abilities that interact with terrain in different ways (Eyeless Sight, for one), the amount and type of terrain has huge balance implications. Setting a baseline as to how much should be expected in tournaments is important for that reason.

Baldur1 got better in a lot of subtle ways I think. Forest walk being tougher is irksome, and sort of confusing, although the various Fertilizer guns can help a little. Otherwise though, Stone Skin no longer prevents charges, so that's nice. A CTRL area spell that stops all the new AOEs, with or without High Explosive, is very nice for keeping stuff alive. There is a bit less Pathfinder and stuff that ignores Cover, so the feat is a bit nicer. Earth Spikes is the exception that ignores everything, including the new cover, so that's handy esp with a caster better at taking Geomancers. Sadly, Woldwardens/Megs can't put Stone Skin on themselves (grumble) but they do charge for free still with 3 Fury, which is actually not really below average anymore, which feels strange.
Compared to where Baldur1 was in Mk2, I think he has actually become pretty good. Forest walking was always a Sword of Damocles when you got down to it, all threat and no real use other than against new people. Sucks to make the threat that much more difficult, but if there is more terrain these days, or a Wold Theme allows bringing some of your own, he should have something to sit in before popping out his own wood. Woods. His own woods.

Away with your reasonable and thoughtful response Wehrkind.

Just line up all your now useless miniatures and burn them, it's the only way to be sure.

For the record, I am not quite so sanguine about Mohsar, who didn't really get better near as I can tell, other than Crevasse being easier to aim from the initial target, and maybe Geomancers being a little better (although at lower Magic Ability). The Kaya's I am not 100% impressed with either, but then I never really clicked with them so there might be some awesome tech there I am not seeing.
Grayle, pMorv, Baldur1/2 (oh my god armor stacking, even on Woldwrath), the Kromacs, and Krueger1 I think all come out better by a fair bit. Wurmwood, eMorv and Krueger2 seem to be at least about as good as they were, but different. Wurmwood really looks kind of fantastic, but Cassius and him were already so good it is hard to tell if it is really a ton better yet; getting Cass killed and not being able to move outside of stones is exactly the sort of crap I can see myself doing.

Shame about Mohsar if true, he's my favourite Circle caster along with eMorv. I've also heard not great things about Kraye who is my favourite Cygnar caster.

Yea, I don't know what to think about Kraye. His spell list is less impressive than before, but everything having Cavalry (boosted charge attacks) and Reposition 5? Considering Sprint is now Self only, I would LOVE to have a caster like that in Circle. Like... so hard. Kaya3 doing that sort of trick would be amazing.
But yes, people are going back and forth about that. I only theory-machined Kraye and Kara (I REALLY wanted to build a totally custom army for both but never got around to it), but with Power up and the new cav/reposition rules Kraye seems at least about as good. Kara looks nuts, like... I think she might be the scariest 1st turn caster ever nuts. Will people run her with 11 Hunters feating shots 3" into your deployment zone first turn? Probably not, but it actually doesn't seem like the worst idea vs a battle group heavy army when you have the next 2-3 turns to finish killing them before it matters.

Please stop judging models purely on their cards and with 0 games played. Just don't.

We aren't judging them properly, just early first impressions is all.

Yea, seriously man. If you don't want to talk about the changes that are coming, don't come into a thread about the new edition.

I am a little torn myself on the new griffon chassis, particularly the Scarsfell. Getting Argus movement and defensive stats is pretty nice really on a flying model, and being able to charge in, kill something and auto cast the screamy animus is going to be really mean to gun lines. I had fun putting Def 15 argus into RiTides Croaks and seeing them struggle to extract themselves. Getting to pop 2-3 a turn with screams is a really nice addition to that.
I am sad that Acceleration went away though, as that was just super fun and allowed for lots of weird jank that never worked as well as it should but was super fun to dream up and try to execute. I totally get why it went, but I will miss it!

I'm a little bummed on Asphyxious2 for his cloud becoming an Upkeep, and thus only having one of them out, and for his Feat being d6+3 models which is an annoying large swing for a once per game ability. The Excarnate/Purge thing was a necessary change. but I wish his Feat had been d3+6 instead. I suppose it doesn't effect me too much though since I've not played him in years. More of a Goreshade and Asphyxious1 guy myself, and those guys got Nice.

Otherwise PP is apparently doing Something right since they've reported over 200 new retailers have signed up to carry their stuff. I suppose that Would have an effect on your allocated product.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I've been pretty skeptical about PP's moves, but I'd actually say that there's nothing wrong with a game specifying the amount of terrain it's optimally played with. I mean, what's so different between that and saying what point size works best?

And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards, so this really seems like a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Making water less of a pure advantage for Hordes and forests less of a pure advantage for Legion also removes a lot of the tension in that department.

 novaspike wrote:
It really looks like the power level of everything is pretty reduced. With the exception of jacks, which are largely the same, but cheaper and more efficient.

My impression is that there's been a push to eliminate the extreme power, defence and armour values. Large stretches of Mk2 felt like they were defined by how you deal with the huge numbers in certain skew lists--DEF 19 Kayazy Assassins, POW 16 / ARM 20 Bane Knights, DEF 16 / ARM 23 Mulg, ARM 23 Warders, ARM 22 (+2 vs shooting) Stormwalls, MAT 13 / POW 24 Wold Guardians, and whatever the numbers were on the Blightbringer / Warspear lists right at the end. A lot of things just fell out of favour because they just didn't have game against those skews.

 novaspike wrote:
So yeah, some changes invalidated signature playstyles, but I think that the changes are better for the game.

And a lot of them weren't really playstyles so much as just things that were overly favoured by the rules. If you can remember a time before the Standard Lylyth2 List of MK2, she was an infantry warlock in first edition! The notion that Legion didn't do infantry only came about because the fury support was so stupidly good that the supposed downside to running nothing but beasts was entirely eliminated. By the same token, I've been pretty confused to hear people say that Circle's entire faction identity is based around Lightning Strike.

 Elemental wrote:


And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards...

I know that's one of my impressions of the game at times.

I'm hoping MK3 addresses this in a way that makes sense?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Elemental wrote:


And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards...

I know that's one of my impressions of the game at times.

I'm hoping MK3 addresses this in a way that makes sense?

Supposedly Age of Cygnar has you adding one more piece of terrain to the board, removing the restriction about walls and obstructions being in zones, and pushing terrain 6" from the sides of the boards. I do know I will selectively ignore that last one because I like to funnel people sometimes and I don't want all the boards to reverse the previous stereotype and look like random clumps in the middle of the board.

Mohsar at least has a bit of a feat vs Warmachine factions now?

Neronoxx wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.

You do realize that mandating 6-7 pieces of terrain in the middle of the board is going to take care of that problem, right?

The Doom and Gloom cycle has never cycled so strong.

You do realize that taking control away from players and 'mandating we play with forests' wasn't a good design choice and shouldn't be defended, right?

There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move. With the new placement system you can acheive virtually the same effect, except that it now demands that you plan ahead of deployment, invest actions in the form of movement, then invest ressources, when before it was just a higher requirement of ressources. I've never had to face Baldur much, so I can't speak as to wether or not that was warranted, but a lot of the dilution of power in other factions I play, I see as a good thing. I'm excited about the new Choir. On a Marshall it's potentially just as broken as before, and now I want to play Marshalls.

And, as always, we should wait until we see the Theme Forces.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Elemental wrote:


And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards...

I know that's one of my impressions of the game at times.

I'm hoping MK3 addresses this in a way that makes sense?

Supposedly Age of Cygnar has you adding one more piece of terrain to the board, removing the restriction about walls and obstructions being in zones, and pushing terrain 6" from the sides of the boards. I do know I will selectively ignore that last one because I like to funnel people sometimes and I don't want all the boards to reverse the previous stereotype and look like random clumps in the middle of the board.

But that last part is the best!

I remember playing MkI Sorscha on a heavy board full of obstructions and buildings. It was awesome. Sadly MkI Sorscha is still a long gone memory.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Mohsar at least has a bit of a feat vs Warmachine factions now?

"While in Mohsar’s control range, enemy models cannot
leech fury, enemy warbeasts cannot have fury leeched
from them, and enemy warjacks cannot power up.
Disjunction lasts for one round."

Not entirely sure what 'power up' means. I'm guessing it's the free Focus point thing.

Yeah power up is the free focus each turn.

Coolio. So at least it does something to WM now. Not massively, but it will atleast slow WM battlegroups down a bit.

It does seem that WM or Hordes only Feats now seem to have all been rewritten to effect factions from both games.

I approve of the increased terrain rules as well. It always seemed to me that PP designed the game with certain levels of terrain in mind, but never really got around to telling us what that level was. Especially with many factions having rules that specifically call out certain types of terrain it seemed a little strange not to at least have guide lines for what should be on the table to make it work. One can hope that Gators were not paying any points for Amphibious, a rule they got use of maybe 1 game out of 50 if not playing a list that brought its own water. Units do pay a lot for Pathfinder, so no difficult terrain makes that a total waste. That isn't to say the table needs to be filled, but when terrain can make such a huge impact on balance the designers should be telling you what they are balancing around, and if players want to deviate from that one way or the other that's their call.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Mohsar at least has a bit of a feat vs Warmachine factions now?

Oh, and it's just been pointed out to me that Mohsar's Pillars of Salt have been rewritten so they're no longer structures, and can be charged now.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move.

I'm sure beatstick players are thrilled every time a control faction becomes less control and more just a worse version of beatstick.

I remember back when having Open Fists everywhere was a defining trait and a big enough deal that it made up for the -4 or so POW that Cryx and Circle had compared to other factions. Those were good times.

I hated how the mk 2 meta shaked out (I stopped playing the game with any regularity about a year ago) so while I'm okay with the idea of a different subset of things becoming what is good, I'd much rather see such a wide subset of things that are equally good that the minority becomes the bad stuff rather than the good stuff.

I want to see a Merc player actually play Sam and Devil Dogs. I'd like to see more Khador Heavies. I'd like to see Trenchers. Maybe some Freebooters and Sea Dog Deck Guns. Anyone remember the Teraph? I think that was the name of a beast.

Blackfang, Cryx has done just fine without that lol . Let's see how things shake out for the factions, but everyone knew change was coming to Cryx... they were borderline OP as a faction for years now.