Breotan wrote: Wow. Are you aware of how cynical your statement is? No wonder GW doesn't see PP as real competition.
People were willing to buy 150 DPI files of a top-down view of some of their level maps for $10 during PP's video game KS for you to print yourself to use as a game map. Not crappy prints, not standard print res files, not crappy files ass freebies, certainly not nice prints for more money, but low res files with no markup for actual practical use, and fans very actively defended PP as a company that needs to make money like they were some sort of charity that deserved and needed their fans' money.
No, I don't put it past them to charge the most for the least, if they can get away with it, because of their die-hards.
edit: Oh, and for the record, no, I don't have a specific vendetta against PP. I think GW's practices are equally absurdly priced (such as their new 30th anniversary tactical marine with free super weapon) but usually around poor quantity rather than poor quality, and I think that GW's consumers' willingness to pay too much is just as bad. There are a lot of companies that charge a ton for luxury toys, I just think that those two, with large die-hard fanbases, are most able/willing to exploit them.
Please, there are plenty of other windmills to tilt at than this one.
I can tilt at more than one windmill at a time.
And please yourslef. Look at this:
Spoiler:
Brightly colored plastic figures, a flat paper mat with pre-printed terrain, folded paper cardboard wall, a bunch of tokens, they aren't shown but there's cards too - That's a board game. It's the Undercity/Widower's Woods version of Warmachine. When you remove the pageantry from a miniatures game, what's left is Ameritrash.
Heck, take PP's recent online policy. Didn't Asmodee/FFG do something very similar because their intentions were to sell outside of FLGS and get their products into big box stores? Who's to say that's not PP's plan also?
And that's okay. If that's the direction PP wants to go with Warmachine, I honestly think MOST Warmachine players would welcome it with open arms. Just like people still paint their Super Dungeon Explore and Imperial Assault figures, the pageantry can still be had. It is not lost to those who want it. It just stops being the standard. But since many Warmachine players weren't taking advantage of the pageantry in the first place, the boardgame standard is an improvement. My FLGS carries only a handful of miniatures, but carries the whole line of Imperial Assault/Descent. They don't hold 40k tournaments in town, but they do hold Magic tournaments. You can buy X-Wing miniatures in the local big box store. By distancing themselves from the pageantry (expensive, time consuming, requires additional tools and skills) and going slightly more mainstream in presentation and expectations (ready to play, easily expandable, more streamlined rules, looks good at minimum effort), PP could make some bank.
My experience really doesn't match that Warmachine players don't paint.
Last year we went to Warmachine Weekend and of the hundreds of gamers there I can barely remember any unpainted armies.
And some of these new models/resculpts are visually really good looking. Hell, I started collecting mercenaries (which was probably gonna happen eventually anyway) because I love the new Fiona the Black and Cephelyx sculpts.
Please, there are plenty of other windmills to tilt at than this one.
I can tilt at more than one windmill at a time.
And please yourslef. Look at this:
Spoiler:
Brightly colored plastic figures, a flat paper mat with pre-printed terrain, folded paper cardboard wall, a bunch of tokens, they aren't shown but there's cards too - That's a board game. It's the Undercity/Widower's Woods version of Warmachine. When you remove the pageantry from a miniatures game, what's left is Ameritrash.
Heck, take PP's recent online policy. Didn't Asmodee/FFG do something very similar because their intentions were to sell outside of FLGS and get their products into big box stores? Who's to say that's not PP's plan also?
And that's okay. If that's the direction PP wants to go with Warmachine, I honestly think MOST Warmachine players would welcome it with open arms. Just like people still paint their Super Dungeon Explore and Imperial Assault figures, the pageantry can still be had. It is not lost to those who want it. It just stops being the standard. But since many Warmachine players weren't taking advantage of the pageantry in the first place, the boardgame standard is an improvement. My FLGS carries only a handful of miniatures, but carries the whole line of Imperial Assault/Descent. They don't hold 40k tournaments in town, but they do hold Magic tournaments. You can buy X-Wing miniatures in the local big box store. By distancing themselves from the pageantry (expensive, time consuming, requires additional tools and skills) and going slightly more mainstream in presentation and expectations (ready to play, easily expandable, more streamlined rules, looks good at minimum effort), PP could make some bank.
What on earth are you on about?
This is how a starter set is supposed to be. Everything you need to play the game in the box.
Many modern wargames use cards for models. Most modern wargames use tokens. Its an eminently sensible solution to managing complicated rules and affects in games. Most of the 40k group I play with have made up their own tokens and cards for models to make playing easier.
Carboard terrain and paper mats? It gets you playing. Also worth noting is other wargames that are universally praised for coming with terrain and mats, like the Infinity and Dropzone Commander starters. Especially in Warmachine where terrain is a) well defined and b) extremely influential on games, its important that when people start out there is a minimum standard.
Coloured plastic? Who does it hurt? It means that you can have better games more quickly. If you were not going to paint models, your force looks a little better. If you were going to paint them, then it makes no difference.
Compare to GW's starter boxes. Thankfully they've begun the 'Start Collecting' line in the last few months which at least let you put a legal army on the table, but those still require you to buy a hundred dollars worth of rules.
Sqorgar wrote: When you remove the pageantry from a miniatures game, what's left is Ameritrash.
What does this even mean?
The new starters look pretty much perfect as starters, to me. The only (reasonable) thing that would improve them would be including actual terrain instead of the mat and folding wall... a decision I would assume was made for cost reasons, and still better than playing on a bare table.
OK, and maybe a couple of different-coloured base inserts, so players who haven't painted their blue models can distinguish them from the other guy's unpainted blue models.
Using a paper terrain mat no more makes it a boardgame than using a terrain mat made out of any other material.
All I'm really seeing here is the post-hoc justifications of someone clearly heavily invested elsewhere, characterized by some sort of faux superiority that the things they unfairly generalize in the player base don't happen in their game.
What we have here, folks, is a clear case of game envy!
insaniak wrote: OK, and maybe a couple of different-coloured base inserts, so players who haven't painted their blue models can distinguish them from the other guy's unpainted blue models.
Not a problem if the other guy has the unpainted red models
insaniak wrote: The new starters look pretty much perfect as starters, to me. The only (reasonable) thing that would improve them would be including actual terrain instead of the mat and folding wall... a decision I would assume was made for cost reasons, and still better than playing on a bare table.
I think a few reasons would be
1) Cost. Card is obviously cheaper
2) Space. A wall is ok, anything beyond that starts to get pretty bulky, making the boxes bigger and logistics harder
3) Playability. Something that a lot of 40k players don't seem to get, but in WMH terrain has a HUGE impact on the game (possibly too much) and very rigid rules defining how it works - so well defined, play-friendly pieces work much better than the more nebulous, pretty but difficult to work with pieces that 40k uses.
4) Re-use. These boxes aren't just for first-time players - every player will pick one up when they start the faction too. So PP probably doesn't want to over-invest in the more disposable items because they'll be completely wasted time players reach their 3rd faction box.
I don't think you guys quite get it. A wargame isn't a wargame unless you have to buy a $500 plastic skull gameboard, a $1200 plastic skull fortress, $30 plastic skull trees and $50 skull ruins to play. I thought that was obvious to everyone.
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't think you guys quite get it. A wargame isn't a wargame unless you have to buy a $500 plastic skull gameboard, a $1200 plastic skull fortress, $30 plastic skull trees and $50 skull ruins to play. I thought that was obvious to everyone.
Do Steam Trees count? I feel like Warmachine should have steampowered trees.
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't think you guys quite get it. A wargame isn't a wargame unless you have to buy a $500 plastic skull gameboard, a $1200 plastic skull fortress, $30 plastic skull trees and $50 skull ruins to play. I thought that was obvious to everyone.
Do Steam Trees count? I feel like Warmachine should have steampowered trees.
As long it's cluttered with detail, made in HIPS and costs $65 USD ($599 AUS) then yes. Otherwise it's just ameritrash crap.
With tastefully dug skull pits in the base so covered in sculpted rocks and vines your models may as well be riding a unicycle on a ice rink for how well they'll stand up. Nothing says "epic" like some random looney who beheaded a bunch of people, cleaned off their skulls and just chucked said skulls in some out of the way hole in the ground for no discernable reason.
Getting back on topic, I disagree with the notion that 2-D terrain makes something a board game. Or even colored plastic models do. They're conveniences for a player new to the game and are entirely optional. If colored plastic offends you so much just spray them grey or something.
Hell, some 40K players (and historical gamers) have been using pieces of coloured felt for terrain for longer than half the people on this board have probably been alive...
While it doesn't look quite as spiffy, 2d terrain does have its uses. And it's certainly easier to maneouvre around.
Sqorgar wrote: When you remove the pageantry from a miniatures game, what's left is Ameritrash.
What does this even mean?
Board games tend to be broken into two genres: Eurogames and Ameritrash. Eurogames tend to be abstract, minimal conflict, little randomness, and a theme which is largely unrelated to the gameplay. Ameritrash (a semi-insulting term coined by eurogame fans) is the exact opposite. Big on conflict, randomness, overproduced, and highly themed to the point where the theme drives the gameplay and not the other way around. While miniature games can't seem to abide the existence of games they don't like, board gamers have happily settled into two major camps the peacefully coexist (that snidely think the other one is wrong). Settlers of Catan and Puerto Rico are eurogames, while Arkham Horror and Talisman are Ameritrash.
Due to the rise in 3D printing and kickstarter, not to mention copious expansions, Ameritrash games have been moving ever so steadily towards miniature games, to the point where the division between board game and miniature war game is pretty arbitrary. There are some games you can look at and say, "This is definitely a miniature game" and others you can look at and say, "This is definitely a board game", but some straddle the line quite finely. Why is X-Wing Miniatures a miniature game while Wings of War, the game XWM took its gameplay from, considered a board game? Largely, it is whatever preexisting community decides to adopt it first, with some of those line straddlers working as a gateway game to those communities.
But I think there is one major distinction between the two: one is just a game while the other is a game and a hobby. There's no doubt that the hobby element is important to miniature games, which is why some of the line straddlers like HeroClix and Monsterpocalypse have not been claimed by the miniature gaming community, despite being miniature games in all other respects. It's why Blood Bowl is a miniatures game while Ninja All Stars (perhaps a distant cousin of Blood Bowl) is a board game.
So, following this logic, if you remove the pageantry - the hobby - from the miniature game, what you have is a board game.
And, of course, all of this is just my opinion - my interpretation of the various hobbies from someone who is heavily invested in all of them. I follow all of gaming, and if I spend a lot of time in the Age of Sigmar forum, it's because I find the discussion ideological rather than qualitative, and I love ideological debates about the nature of gaming. I'm not saying THIS IS HOW IT IS and that anybody who disagrees with me can go play in traffic. Everybody is welcome to their own opinions, and I quite enjoy reading the opinions of people who disagree.
TheCustomLime wrote:
Getting back on topic, I disagree with the notion that 2-D terrain makes something a board game. Or even colored plastic models do. They're conveniences for a player new to the game and are entirely optional. If colored plastic offends you so much just spray them grey or something.
It's not that the 2D terrain by itself makes it a board game, or that the colored plastic by itself makes it a board game, but that the coordinated effort to remove the hobby aspects makes it a board game. And it doesn't offend me in the slightest. In fact, I think it is perfect for Warmachine. It lets the players ignore the hobby aspects they don't care about and focus on the competitive game rules that they do. I've already seen what happens when board games try to be miniature games (it's great), and I'm eager to see what happens when miniature games try to be board games.
Please, there are plenty of other windmills to tilt at than this one.
I can tilt at more than one windmill at a time.
And please yourslef. Look at this:
Spoiler:
Brightly colored plastic figures, a flat paper mat with pre-printed terrain, folded paper cardboard wall, a bunch of tokens, they aren't shown but there's cards too - That's a board game. It's the Undercity/Widower's Woods version of Warmachine. When you remove the pageantry from a miniatures game, what's left is Ameritrash.
Come again? If anything, its Warmahordes that is the Eurogame, with it's tightly balanced rules, and AOS that is Ameritrash, with its herpaderp roll a hat full of dice, +5 dice if you fart, no point values, forge your narrative "gameplay".
Come again? If anything, its Warmahordes that is the Eurogame, with it's tightly balanced rules, and AOS that is Ameritrash, with its herpaderp roll a hat full of dice, +5 dice if you fart, no point values, forge your narrative "gameplay".
I'm not sure you are using the Eurogame and Ameritrash terms correctly there. They are both Ameritrash.
Sqorgar wrote: There's no doubt that the hobby element is important to miniature games, which is why some of the line straddlers like HeroClix and Monsterpocalypse have not been claimed by the miniature gaming community, despite being miniature games in all other respects.
I suspect that this may depend on your local community. I've never heard anyone describe Heroclix or Monsterpocalypse as anything other than a miniatures game. Likewise with Mechwarrior, which along with Mageknight was at one time huge amongst miniatures gamers.
The hobby aspect isn't intrinsic to miniature gaming. I tend to view it as a separate (but related) hobby to the actual gaming. Painting and modeling is a hobby. Gaming is another.
It's not that the 2D terrain by itself makes it a board game, or that the colored plastic by itself makes it a board game, but that the coordinated effort to remove the hobby aspects makes it a board game.
I don't feel that having a game mat and using coloured plastic constitute a 'co-ordinated effort to remove the hobby aspects'. I would take them more as an effort to make the game more accessible. Making the miniatures blue, red or green instead of all grey makes the game experience slightly better for those with no interest in the modeling aspect of the hobby, while having absolutely zero impact on those who want to paint the miniatures.
Perhaps because 'Ameritrash' is an obviously unhelpful term that's going to stifle any conversation it's used it?
I guess you're seeing what you want to see... your bias is pretty obvious by the terms you're using. I don't see any 'coordinated effort to remove the hobby aspects' from Warmachine. I see a coordinated effort to lower the barrier of entry - which is a good thing! Games that take hundreds of dollars and days/months of preparation to even try out are bad games!
Having colored minis isn't going to remove the hobby aspect from the game unless you believe there is a significant portion of people who's sole engagement in the hobby is to spraypaint their grey plastic to faction colors.
Sqorgar wrote: There's no doubt that the hobby element is important to miniature games, which is why some of the line straddlers like HeroClix and Monsterpocalypse have not been claimed by the miniature gaming community, despite being miniature games in all other respects.
I suspect that this may depend on your local community. I've never heard anyone describe Heroclix or Monsterpocalypse as anything other than a miniatures game. Likewise with Mechwarrior, which along with Mageknight was at one time huge amongst miniatures gamers.
The hobby aspect isn't intrinsic to miniature gaming. I tend to view it as a separate (but related) hobby to the actual gaming. Painting and modeling is a hobby. Gaming is another.
Agreed.
I don't think Miniatures Games are an opposed category to Board Games. You have board games with minis, and games without.
The big difference in categorisation IMO is the movement type. Are you constrained to a grid / node system of movement? Then its a board game. Is movement free-form and limited by real distance travelled? Then its a war game.
(Although there are those who consider games like Risk or Smallworld to be a war game because you're 'fighting' enemies. Meh. I think the term is more generally applied to free-movement style games though)
Please, there are plenty of other windmills to tilt at than this one.
I can tilt at more than one windmill at a time.
And please yourslef. Look at this:
Spoiler:
Brightly colored plastic figures, a flat paper mat with pre-printed terrain, folded paper cardboard wall, a bunch of tokens, they aren't shown but there's cards too - That's a board game. It's the Undercity/Widower's Woods version of Warmachine. When you remove the pageantry from a miniatures game, what's left is Ameritrash.
Come again? If anything, its Warmahordes that is the Eurogame, with it's tightly balanced rules, and AOS that is Ameritrash, with its herpaderp roll a hat full of dice, +5 dice if you fart, no point values, forge your narrative "gameplay".
Its non of these it is a wargame, it can be a boardgame or a miniature game, the main think with board games is that the plastic figure is just a game token while in a wargame it is an active play piece. The eurogame/Ameritrash point is completely irrelevant.
I guess this also just a board game
Boy this thread has gotten off the rails. Pfffttt Euros and Ameritrash are for babies, real games use hex and counters, everything is just baby stuff obviously. Now let me pull out my giant ASL rulebook and push up my glasses.
Seriously though the new starters are a great bit of marketing honestly. And they may actually draw in new players who have never done any type of miniature gaming. Whether we like to admit it or not, assembling and painting minis can be a huge limiting factor for customers. Why do you think X-Wing comes preassembled and prepainted, because that's the best way to make a game about such a mainstream IP. It wouldn't be half as successful if you had to assemble and paint those ships. So going back to the new starters, I think they strike a great balance, and that balance may help previously non miniature gaming folk get past that daunting feeling when they look at a beautiful table with custom terrain and lovely painted miniatures.
spiralingcadaver wrote: If it turns out that people don't give a crap about PP's minis other than tokens to push around the table, then maybe it doesn't make sense for PP to cater to people who like their models to be above-average.
Wow. Are you aware of how cynical your statement is? No wonder GW doesn't see PP as real competition.
That assumes "game is focus, miniatures are just tokens" is somehow inheritently bad. If not then that's not cynical. People have different preferences and that's why there's different companies. If everybody wanted same thing there wouldn't be room for more than 1 company in the first place!
Ameritrash has an intrinsic lack of choice (not 40k, definitely not PP) that is often based on experienced players knowing there are objectively best options (both do suffer a lot from imbalance), but I wouldn't call either ameritrash, because i think they do have choice, regardless of whether it's list design or actual play.
And IDK about AOS... it's just such an anomaly that I'm not even sure I'd call it a game by conventional standards, it's like a semi-competitive pastime, at least how GW frames it.
Eldarain wrote: Taking stock of my collection/accessories this might be very expensive. Might be switching over to Modcube tokens if there is a lot of change there.
Aren't PP tokens completely generic and made to use with dry erase markers?
Eldarain wrote: Taking stock of my collection/accessories this might be very expensive. Might be switching over to Modcube tokens if there is a lot of change there.
Aren't PP tokens completely generic and made to use with dry erase markers?
Only the spell tokens are generic (so you can write the name of the spell or effect). All other tokens IIRC have their specific uses.
Regardless of the board game/ameritrash debate which is mainly semantic, I do think it would be very interesting if PP started moving WMH more towards the gaming end of the spectrum and de-emphasizing the hobby aspects, with pre-assembled, pre-colored miniatures for example. No one would play 40k without the model design and fluff, whereas I think you would have to look around a bit to find a WMH player who got into the game because of those aspects. After all, aren't many (most?) WMH players disenfranchised GW players who want a more robust game and less focus on "forging the narrative" with fluffy armies and custom paint schemes, random is fun and fairness is secondary mentality? I can completely understand that, even though I am the complete opposite (the game is secondary to me, I don't care about testing my skills, getting better etc). Going in that direction doesn't even have to mean you de-emphasize the story and the world, just look at X-Wing. You're just catering to gamers rather than hobbyists.
Eldarain wrote: Taking stock of my collection/accessories this might be very expensive. Might be switching over to Modcube tokens if there is a lot of change there.
Aren't PP tokens completely generic and made to use with dry erase markers?
Only the spell tokens are generic (so you can write the name of the spell or effect). All other tokens IIRC have their specific uses.
Context is important. My question was in relation to the tokens needing to be upgraded because of the edition switch. I'm guessing not unless they introduce a bunch of new continuous effects.
I am guessing the custom tokens would need expansion packs but I doubt there is going to be a lot of spell musical chairs and name changes. The PP tokens are of course generic.
Regarding the discussion last page, this is a second warning to get back on topic - if you want a broader discussion of board games / Euro / American games in general, start a thread in Dakka Discussions and link to it here.
So please, take general discussion elsewhere, and only discuss Warmachine Mk 3 (rules, new models / sets, etc) here. Dakka Discussions is there for a reason, and is very popular - make use of it!
Speaking of tokens, I saw pre-orders on Doc's not only for MkIII faction tokens but universal token sets for conditions and a set for corpse and soul tokens. Looks like they'll be put shortly after rules release. I for one have been waiting some time for that.
Ah that sounds great! I always end up using my fury tokens for these, which is bad when I've got beasts, a Bokor collecting corpses and a Sacral Vault collecting souls in the same list!
Regarding the discussion last page, this is a second warning to get back on topic - if you want a broader discussion of board games / Euro / American games in general, start a thread in Dakka Discussions and link to it here.
Excellent, thanks Sqorgar - please direct any general discussion comparing wargames to board games (and where the line is) over there!
---
With all the news on Mk3 the local warmahordes groups have spiked up in activity - I'm really excited to start playing in a more organized fashion again . Reminds me of when I started playing near the beginning of Mk2, which similarly did away with some mechanics that had become broken over time in Mk1, streamlined things and made jacks more viable. This is the next logical step and while probably a bit overdue, late is much better than never
I was a PG for 13 years for PP. I was also an external play test group leader. Despite all that, I'm not a PP fanboy, as to me that implies that PP's faults cannot be perceived. With that disclaimer out of the way, the trend of theme forces and some rules imbalance lead me to the decision that I was not good PG material anymore and I resigned. No game is perfect and the meta in my area had stagnated. I didn't feel the drive to even try and revive it. This single announcement has brought players out of the woodwork, generated discussion and revived the meta far better than I ever could have short of hostage taking. I've taken a break from playing, but I'm really excited too, as a player. MK II made the game better and I expect MK III to do the same. PP has shown that they can learn from their mistakes (fairly frequent errata, design updates, combining SKUs) so I expect this edition to be better than the last.
I've no doubts that there will be an amount of rage quitting but I'm sure that this edition will bring in fresh blood too.
Mymearan wrote: Regardless of the board game/ameritrash debate which is mainly semantic, I do think it would be very interesting if PP started moving WMH more towards the gaming end of the spectrum and de-emphasizing the hobby aspects, with pre-assembled, pre-colored miniatures for example. No one would play 40k without the model design and fluff, whereas I think you would have to look around a bit to find a WMH player who got into the game because of those aspects. After all, aren't many (most?) WMH players disenfranchised GW players who want a more robust game and less focus on "forging the narrative" with fluffy armies and custom paint schemes, random is fun and fairness is secondary mentality? I can completely understand that, even though I am the complete opposite (the game is secondary to me, I don't care about testing my skills, getting better etc). Going in that direction doesn't even have to mean you de-emphasize the story and the world, just look at X-Wing. You're just catering to gamers rather than hobbyists.
Ok. So let me get this straight. YOU don't like the model design, so that automatically means no one else likes the model design. You assume that everyone who plays Warmachine or Hordes is a disenfranchised GW player, so it must be true. You don't like the new online policy, so it must be a vast conspiracy that PP is somehow making money off of, even though they don't have an online store that sells anything other than online exclusives, bits, and pins. Why don't you get a clue before assuming what other people think and/or why they play a particular gamer over another. I've personally introduced Warmachine and Hordes to more non GW gamers than GW gamers over the last decade, and it seems, from your comments, far more likely that I know a lot more Warmachine and Hordes players than you do.
I think most people get int WM/H because the aesthetic does speak for them. The rules are cool and all, but if someone doesn't like the look of the jacks and beasts, they're probably not going to even try a demo game.
I think the competitive game/rules first (and only?) crowd are actually a minority of PP's customers. They might make up the majority of the attendance at tournaments and the store gaming nights that they basically treat as tournament practice*, but I think the majority of PP's customers are like GW's customers. People who buy, paint and play with a small circle of friends in private.
I rag on PVC, but people I talk to who are painted only players who play at home seem mostly fine with it. Maybe they are used to the prep or are lucky in terms of having avoided the worst offenders, but I'm not sure the material is as big of a turn off for most of PP's customers as it is for people like me on DakkaDakka.
My real feelings on the materials are that if you can inspect a kit before purchase (open it up and look at the parts through the baggies) you can get good miniatures that require very little work to look great. So the real issue with these MK3 boxes is whether or not they are going to be inconsistent and rushed like the Convergence plastics or totally fine like the Retribution Sentinels/Invictors plastics.
The worst case scenario is that they are inconsistent in their own run and you can get horrible mold lines and gate tears on one box but the one next to it is fine. And then if they are shrink wrapped closed, you'll be playing the poo lottery. I won't be pre-ordering any of the new battle boxes because not only will I not know if the run as a whole is a good PVC run, but I won't be able to inspect and decline a pre-order without grief from local stores (they just love it when you special order or pre-order something and then refuse it when it shows up). I can't see myself buying the rules because they'll be free and my tablet is awesome. I can't see myself buying cards because I'm hoping either War Room or Warmachine & Hordes Army Creator (an android app) will be a better way to go. Right now WHAC is way better than either War Room or physical cards.
*Best news I got all month was that two guys who travel to all the big events are not going to do so any more (X-Wing has taken over their competitive gaming) so the tone of the local stores might be changing to be less about constant tournament practice. Warmachine/Hordes is such a good game when you don't play it to win as quickly as possible with only the best things in a list. When you take the stuff that looks and sounds cool to you and play to see what happens, the game just sings.
In my personal experience of a few WM/Hgaming circles, they've all been very competitive, and the only difference being attitude (pleasantly competitive vs. trash talking).
And right there with you on PVC, think it's a horrible material, but if people are fine paying for it, it's their money. I also think first run movie theaters are a ripoff, but that's not going to stop anyone from going.
Mymearan wrote: Regardless of the board game/ameritrash debate which is mainly semantic, I do think it would be very interesting if PP started moving WMH more towards the gaming end of the spectrum and de-emphasizing the hobby aspects, with pre-assembled, pre-colored miniatures for example. No one would play 40k without the model design and fluff, whereas I think you would have to look around a bit to find a WMH player who got into the game because of those aspects. After all, aren't many (most?) WMH players disenfranchised GW players who want a more robust game and less focus on "forging the narrative" with fluffy armies and custom paint schemes, random is fun and fairness is secondary mentality? I can completely understand that, even though I am the complete opposite (the game is secondary to me, I don't care about testing my skills, getting better etc). Going in that direction doesn't even have to mean you de-emphasize the story and the world, just look at X-Wing. You're just catering to gamers rather than hobbyists.
Ok. So let me get this straight. YOU don't like the model design, so that automatically means no one else likes the model design. You assume that everyone who plays Warmachine or Hordes is a disenfranchised GW player, so it must be true. You don't like the new online policy, so it must be a vast conspiracy that PP is somehow making money off of, even though they don't have an online store that sells anything other than online exclusives, bits, and pins. Why don't you get a clue before assuming what other people think and/or why they play a particular gamer over another. I've personally introduced Warmachine and Hordes to more non GW gamers than GW gamers over the last decade, and it seems, from your comments, far more likely that I know a lot more Warmachine and Hordes players than you do.
Knight
I didn't say anything about the model design, or the new online policy, and this is my first post in this thread... did you quote the wrong person?
I haven't seen this posted yet, skill checks are gone, wreck markers are gone, and frenzy has been simplified to charge the nearest model with your strongest attack.
Wreck markers were interesting, but they did muck with things in weird ways.
That said, you can still use wreck markers as terrain... Assuming warmachine players will actually want to use terrain in Mk3. If I start playing again, I might do just that.
I like the direction things are going so far if this is what they meant by streamlining. No more command checks, no more skill checks, frenzy is just shake, charge & attack closest model.
Interesting that skill checks were removed for what seems like adding utility to often ignored support models. As someone who hangs out on the bad side of the dice bell curve I like that change.
Also, the removal of the wreck markers is technically the first instance of PP invalidating a WM model, right? I know wreck markers don't have stats or really function in the game except as an obstacle, but it is a type of model PP sells (or sold if wreck markers are actually being cut from production).
Maybe the wreck markers will get bundled into some kind of terrain pack? Seems a waste to let those model molds go unused.
And the disappointment with PP's writing arm continues. "Let's just wrap up this multi-book story line with a novella" "Sure, let's charge 5 bucks for it" "Sure, no one would possibly be annoyed with us constantly putting out novellas rather than any actual book with actual meat to it". It drives me spare, I'd read the hell out of actual books but they release one in a blue moon, and fritter away any good will I hold their writing arm by just pumping out novellas hoping people pay up for a few pages of writing. Ugh.
I mean... they are like 100 pages, that's a lot more than we would get in an anthology book. Plus we are getting two novels to link the before and after of the time skip that are getting print releases so...
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Interesting that skill checks were removed for what seems like adding utility to often ignored support models. As someone who hangs out on the bad side of the dice bell curve I like that change.
If they get rid of skill checks wonder how far they will go? Maybe in MK4 they will get rid of to hit and damage rolls and it's simply fixed damage based on skill, strength of attack, defence and armour?-)
Zatsuku wrote: I mean... they are like 100 pages, that's a lot more than we would get in an anthology book. Plus we are getting two novels to link the before and after of the time skip that are getting print releases so...
$5 for 100 digital pages is embarrassingly expensive.
Zatsuku wrote: I mean... they are like 100 pages, that's a lot more than we would get in an anthology book. Plus we are getting two novels to link the before and after of the time skip that are getting print releases so...
$5 for 100 digital pages is embarrassingly expensive.
Is it really? I see $15 ebooks all the time that are 300 or even less pages.
Zatsuku wrote: I mean... they are like 100 pages, that's a lot more than we would get in an anthology book. Plus we are getting two novels to link the before and after of the time skip that are getting print releases so...
I'd hardly call having more than one of PP's pathetic analogy books a strong showing. I dunno, I just really enjoy the fluff, but I want them to put the effort in to making books rather than anthologies, short stories, novellas and the like. So they're bringing out two books before and after, good. That'll make I think 7 books out of 50 something things. So more than 1 in 5 releases overpriced for their content (to me), not a great place to be. And for a company that prices their ebooks well (in my opinion), they must know they're gouging on the short dodgy ones.
Zatsuku wrote: I mean... they are like 100 pages, that's a lot more than we would get in an anthology book. Plus we are getting two novels to link the before and after of the time skip that are getting print releases so...
$5 for 100 digital pages is embarrassingly expensive.
It might just be that I'm used to GWs prices, but $5 (what's that, like 3 quid?) doesn't seem expensive for a novella. And for what its worth the feedback I've seen so far for this one in particular has been positive.
.Mikes. wrote: They said elsewhere that instead of rolling to succeed in skill checks you'll eb rolling to see how well you succeeded.
Only for repair skill checks afaik
Nope, on the latest insider it said 'Perhaps one of the most noticeable cuts that added a huge amount to the games was the removal of skill checks from both games. The removal of this random element created a huge shift in some very underutilized models, as they were now guaranteed to be able to do what they were meant to do without having to worry about a random die roll to determine success. Of course, this cut did not come without some serious retooling and testing of former skill check abilities to account for the now guaranteed success.'
ImAGeek wrote: Nope, on the latest insider it said 'Perhaps one of the most noticeable cuts that added a huge amount to the games was the removal of skill checks from both games. The removal of this random element created a huge shift in some very underutilized models, as they were now guaranteed to be able to do what they were meant to do without having to worry about a random die roll to determine success. Of course, this cut did not come without some serious retooling and testing of former skill check abilities to account for the now guaranteed success.'
Don't see where it says they roll for anything regarding those skills rather than "mechanic fixes X points" automatically.
If they replace the X with dice roll it's replacing one random dice roll with another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Melee weapons have a range now; MK has 2" on the fists, Slayer and Trenchers have 1" range and Eiryss has 0.5" still.
Looks promising. If they really doubled the costs more or less than the Slayer is less than double the points and got tusks in addition. I consider that a decent buff! I also like the different reach ranges.
No, that's HIPS. That isn't for the battlebox stuff it's a separate kit.
In other news, with the cards shown Trenchers gained a point of RAT, one inch reach, brutal charge, tough AND seem to be cheaper points wise. People might actually play them now!
EDIT: Soles over at the PP forums has given some more info on ROF in the new edition. ROF is now the number of initial attacks you make with the gun, so ROF3 means 3 ranged attacks for free (Manticores now have ROF = d3). You cannot buy more ranged attacks with focus or fury normally, only if you have the RELOAD[X] rule where X is the maximum number of additional ranged attacks you can buy.
I am rather curious what will they do with Sword Knights, Sentinel and Cyclone. I do like changes to the Trenchers, they needed some love coming their way.
I don't think the Sentinel needs too much love, honestly. Maybe round down on the points cost, but it's already a pretty decent troop shredder and bodyguard. Sword Knights could definitely use some love to avoid just being cheap bodies.
In today’s twofer Insider, I want to expand on the changes to unit attachments and also dive into a change that’s seen a great deal of speculation in the community: the reevaluation of point costs in the new editions.
In addition to turning a critical eye on models or units that the theme force changes from Mk II to the new editions (more on that tomorrow!), we also took the opportunity to do a complete re-examination and rebalancing of every model in WARMACHINE and HORDES to look at FA and its impact on the game as a whole. One of the most exciting revelations we came to was concerning unit attachments.
Between the changes to theme forces and the immense rebalancing, we realized we no longer needed to limit the FA of unit attachments like the Trencher Infantry Officer and Sniper or the Praetorian Swordsmen Officer and Standard, which in the new editions are now identified as Command Attachments.
Instead, we were able to balance them from the ground up to have an FA equal to the unit to which they could attach. No longer did a unit of Stormblades need to go to battle without an officer, nor did a unit of Druids of Orboros lack the stern oversight of their Druid Overseer.
Another extremely exciting result from our look at unit attachments was the decision we came to about how weapon attachments would interact with units. Specifically, units can now take a maximum of three weapon attachments from any valid weapon attachment options they have. So, in the future, units with multiple weapon attachment options will be able to mix and match between their various options, so long as they do not contain more than three total weapon attachments.
In the end, all of this added up to creating strong tactical and strategic decisions when building an army. And speaking of building an army…
The adjustment of the point costing system in WARMACHINE and HORDES was one of the first things we knew we wanted to implement in the new editions. After compiling years of data from both internal testing and, more important, from our global community of players, we knew we needed to introduce a points system that allowed for greater granularity. We settled on the foundation of doubling the current point system; however, this initial determination was little more than the first step on what would be a long, arduous, yet infinitely rewarding journey toward the new points system.
With a greater range in which to play, we began examining and testing every model in the game. The new points system was instrumental in helping shape the complete rebalancing of the game. While we certainly tweaked and changed stats and abilities, being able to more granularly assign point costs between the myriad different models within the game was monumental in shaping the total rebalancing of the new editions. It gave us a greater dial with which to finely tune each and every model.
So, the theory sounds all well and good, but what does it mean in practice?
Let’s take a look at a range of stat cards for different model types so you can see the new points system (combined with a bit of rebalancing) in action.
Click the image for a larger view
*Can you spot the new icons for Assault , Disruption, and Blessed?
Of course, this is just the barest tip of the iceberg, but hopefully it gives you an idea on just how the new points system has helped to reshape the landscape of the game in an exciting way.
Stay tuned for more sneak peeks under the supercharged hood and get ready for an all-new war!
.Mikes. wrote: Holy crap - Trencher's are getting Tough?!?!
They're getting the MK III version of tough - which I think everyone is expecting to get toned down quite a bit.
I'm more excited that the cards all say version 1 - this strongly seems to imply yearly update decks to get errata'd cards and whatnot into the game. That is an excellent idea.
.Mikes. wrote: Holy crap - Trencher's are getting Tough?!?!
They're getting the MK III version of tough - which I think everyone is expecting to get toned down quite a bit.
Ah, OK. Still, even if it's tough only on a six that's still a 17% of not dying when they would otherwise. Plus the RAT boost. I WON'T LET YOU TAKE AWAY MY NEW TRENCHER BUZZ!
.Mikes. wrote: Ah, OK. Still, even if it's tough only on a six that's still a 17% of not dying when they would otherwise. Plus the RAT boost. I WON'T LET YOU TAKE AWAY MY NEW TRENCHER BUZZ!
I love the new trencher rules. They've got a point reduction, a RAT boost, faster cloud rules (even if they're technically weaker) and tough (whatever that ends up meaning). 1 inch reach on their melee weapons is also pretty cool.
.Mikes. wrote: Holy crap - Trencher's are getting Tough?!?!
They're getting the MK III version of tough - which I think everyone is expecting to get toned down quite a bit.
I'm more excited that the cards all say version 1 - this strongly seems to imply yearly update decks to get errata'd cards and whatnot into the game. That is an excellent idea.
Yearly is a bit much. Lets say if this version lasts for 6 years we can get version 2 on the 3rd year
lord_blackfang wrote: What a sad little article, trying to sell greater granularity of points as a fantastic upgrade when Mk2 sold the exact reverse as a fantastic upgrade.
Both can exist at the same time, when they went from really really granular in MkI (750pts or something) to 50pts in MkII and now its in between. MkI was too granular, and obviously they feel MkII wasn't granular enough. Its not like they're reverting to MkI points.
lord_blackfang wrote: What a sad little article, trying to sell greater granularity of points as a fantastic upgrade when Mk2 sold the exact reverse as a fantastic upgrade.
Both can exist at the same time, when they went from really really granular in MkI (750pts or something) to 50pts in MkII and now its in between. MkI was too granular, and obviously they feel MkII wasn't granular enough. Its not like they're reverting to MkI points.
The theory in MK II was that the rules would be better balanced at each point value, and it wasn't too far off. The strain really showed up in 2pt solos, which are extremely common, and ranged in effectiveness from Kovnik Joe (probably almost a three point piece) to the Gunmage Captain Adept (almost a one point piece). Making them five and three point pieces, respectively, makes them better choices.
Now theme forces can be taken by any caster and the options in them are more open. Plus you can mix and match Gators and Pigs now which makes my minion pact choice much easier!
lord_blackfang wrote: What a sad little article, trying to sell greater granularity of points as a fantastic upgrade when Mk2 sold the exact reverse as a fantastic upgrade.
Almost as if someone's opinion of something changes when presented with more data.
Tell me, what did you think was a fantastic idea 6 years ago?
.Mikes. wrote: Holy crap - Trencher's are getting Tough?!?!
They're getting the MK III version of tough - which I think everyone is expecting to get toned down quite a bit.
I'm more excited that the cards all say version 1 - this strongly seems to imply yearly update decks to get errata'd cards and whatnot into the game. That is an excellent idea.
Yearly is a bit much. Lets say if this version lasts for 6 years we can get version 2 on the 3rd year
I didn't mean to imply that ALL the cards or the rules or anything would be updated yearly - just cards that come with mistakes on them or units they decide to tweak. I think once a year is a pretty good pace for those sorts of things - gets everyone back on the same page and wouldn't be too expensive.
** - and having read the insider - I like the idea of the new theme forces - I know when I look at an army in WM/Hordes - I always see it in terms of like "ooh - and all Tharn Circle army would be cool." That said - I don't like the mixing and matching of Mercs and Minions. I'm glad to see Merc contracts gone, as those were confusing and unnecessary. But I would have rather it moved to a minion like package of basically being mini-factions (where the units could be taken by other armies). Again - I'm a fluffer-nutter though.
There's a lot of live tweeting going on from the Chain Attack fellas about the latest Primecast episode which touches on each of the factions- a variety of background and gameplay updates.
lord_blackfang wrote: What a sad little article, trying to sell greater granularity of points as a fantastic upgrade when Mk2 sold the exact reverse as a fantastic upgrade.
Almost as if someone's opinion of something changes when presented with more data.
Tell me, what did you think was a fantastic idea 6 years ago?
Also - it's no where near the EXACT reverse - in MK 1 - a single heavy Warjack was 100+ pts alone. In MK 3 100 points will be the size of a standard army.
So they went from WAAAY too much granularity - overcorrected to not enough (which made balancing low point things pretty impossible) and now have settled into (hopefully) a sweet spot in between.
There's a practical upside as well, in that it's pretty obvious when a person is using cards from another edition. Honestly, that's probably reason enough to recalculate the points every edition.
I'm feeling more positive after the latest round of updates and the images of the inflictor/seether sprues.
Power booster being changed to Empower and being able to use it on jacks that have focus is pretty cool. Now a cryx siren can top up a jack that was allocated 1, gained 1 from being in control for a total of 3 focus with the caster only giving up 1.
lord_blackfang wrote: What a sad little article, trying to sell greater granularity of points as a fantastic upgrade when Mk2 sold the exact reverse as a fantastic upgrade.
Almost as if someone's opinion of something changes when presented with more data.
Tell me, what did you think was a fantastic idea 6 years ago?
Well, I figured out what will determine if I start playing this regularly again, buy a new starter, cards for my existing factions, etc., or if I'm going to sell my existing collection.
No more trap choices, especially when we're talking about the central theme of the game (jacks and beasts). If they can't figure out how to make the difference in power level between units in a given faction smaller, I'm just done. If they fail to make jacks and beasts good and we end up with people just spending their jack points because they have to, I'm just done.
Pretty much everyone I know who used to play but has faded has a shelf full of crap. Marauders and Assault Kommandos and Man O Wars. Crusaders and Knights Exemplar and Guardians. Trenchers and Iron Clads and Hammersmiths. Every fething faction seems to have a good portion of their models look awesome and have cool rules but they just suck next to their obviously stronger brethren.
I'm okay with a slightly worse unit here and a slightly better unit there, but the model pool has become so large that you can effectively build an army with only the good models and it's like you're playing a massive points advantage. And if you just happen to take what seems cool to you and sounds like it would work well together, but it's not the best stuff, your army will just suck compared to the good stuff lists.
I don't know if a company has ever made their points system actually work (Bolt Action and Antares seem close so far) but for me, this is PP's last chance.
MattofWar wrote: Well, I figured out what will determine if I start playing this regularly again, buy a new starter, cards for my existing factions, etc., or if I'm going to sell my existing collection.
No more trap choices, especially when we're talking about the central theme of the game (jacks and beasts). If they can't figure out how to make the difference in power level between units in a given faction smaller, I'm just done. If they fail to make jacks and beasts good and we end up with people just spending their jack points because they have to, I'm just done.
Pretty much everyone I know who used to play but has faded has a shelf full of crap. Marauders and Assault Kommandos and Man O Wars. Crusaders and Knights Exemplar and Guardians. Trenchers and Iron Clads and Hammersmiths. Every fething faction seems to have a good portion of their models look awesome and have cool rules but they just suck next to their obviously stronger brethren.
I'm okay with a slightly worse unit here and a slightly better unit there, but the model pool has become so large that you can effectively build an army with only the good models and it's like you're playing a massive points advantage. And if you just happen to take what seems cool to you and sounds like it would work well together, but it's not the best stuff, your army will just suck compared to the good stuff lists.
I don't know if a company has ever made their points system actually work (Bolt Action and Antares seem close so far) but for me, this is PP's last chance.
I advise you to listen to episode 31 of their podcast called Primecast.
Most of these fears will be nixed hopefully. Whilst we don't know about them in the context of other units (I thought I'd point you to this as you called them out specifically and said units are also called out on this podcast), but Man o Wars, Trenchers, Ironclads and Guardians all got given a massive shot in the arm for this edition.
ROF doesn't require you to spend focus for extra shots anymore,
so a Redeemer with ROF 3 gets 3 shots a turn.
Fun!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Archangel spoiler :
"The Archangel is now SPD 7 and is the first gargantuan or colossal to have a rule that allows it to move outside of its normal movement in Deceptively Mobile (I argued really hard that it should be called Insanely Fast, but I was overruled). Deceptively Mobile simply says that at the end of an activation this model did not run or fail a charge it can advance up to 3", then its activation ends. This rule replaced the Archangel's Ride By Attack but I think in the end you'll quickly see it was well worth the trade as this nimble gargantuan effectively gained 4" of potential movement.
Oh and its RAT went up to 6. So it's way more accurate with those d3+1 AOE 3 POW 14 dragon fire shots!
Its animus matches the one it has now post errata. Cost 1 set everything not friendly within 2" on fire."
Automatically Appended Next Post: Per Will Shick:
Morghoul2's feat:
Feat: Blackout
Enemy models currently in Morghoul’s control range and LOS suffer Blind for one round. (A model suffering Blind cannot make ranged or magic attacks, suffers –4 MAT and DEF, and cannot run, charge, or make slam or trample power attacks. It must forfeit either its Normal Movement or Combat Action during its next activation. Blind can be shaken.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will on Primecast Post on Forums Because it's Friday (and totally not because the glowering shadow of our forum overlord PPS_Simon is hovering over me with one of Reznik's wracks at the ready) let's talk some numbers!
Much like the Slayer I previewed in Wednesday's Insider, the tried and true Crusader is pretty much the same warjack Protectorate players know and love. Albeit it now has that sweet RNG 1 on its melee weapons. The big thing to consider in the new edition is that this jack comes in at a bargain 10 PC. As many have postulated 10 PC puts it at a cost less than several light warjacks. I don't care how "basic" you may consider the Crusader, when your opponent throws down 3 of them for free with each getting a guaranteed focus a turn they are a force to be reckoned with!
But what about another example I hear you (and not the deep menacing growl of PPS_Simon) say! Well let's look at the Templar. In the new edition the Templar's shield gained a point of POW and, more importantly the Templar now has Shield Guard! And at a PC of 15 it's even slightly cheaper than it was in Mk II.
And for a final point of comparison, the Redeemer is now 11 points (so again slightly cheaper) and, are you ready for it, thanks to the change in how ROF works in the new edition just flat out gets to make three skyhammer shots per activation, no focus required (nevermind that you still have one for free).
The super low cost on the very basic jacks is quite good. As is the 15 point Templar with Shield Guard. The Guardian gets a MAT increase and hopefully will get cheaper as well. And the Redeemer just getting all three shots means it can finally do its job without taking half your casters resources for a relatively poor output.
Now theme forces can be taken by any caster and the options in them are more open. Plus you can mix and match Gators and Pigs now which makes my minion pact choice much easier!
Wow that's actually pretty cool. Won't be gaming until the summer but that explanation of how they are developing theme forces is intriguing; always found the current theme force rules unnecessarily restrictive. Really looking forward to picking up the new edition.
I've always like the concept of warmachine but had problems with some of the rules not letting me bring the army I wanted. I'm hoping that MK3 will help fix that issue. There are some things from various posts that have me hopeful. So hopeful, in fact, that I traded an Eldar army I had for a Menoth army.
Casters getting a lot more free jack points
This has me really excited, and was the biggest problem for me. Jacks are amazingly cool in concept, and is iconic in the imagery of the game.
I bought an army specifically with the idea of running lots of jacks and discovered that it was f'ing awful. I was told that in order to be competitive I had to buy a ton of infantry that was out of stock. It was a big turn off for me that made me trade away my warmachine for more warhammer.
point scale has been doubles
This is another good idea.
pre-measure is a go
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
Colored Plastic
GW has better plastics. GW's has done things with plastics that I never thought was possible and made amazing models. Without a huge investment PP cannot match that.
But changing the color of the factions base plastic kit is a great idea, as it helps those people who don't like to paint and model.
3D Terrain
One of my favorite things about 40k is the boards we play on, covered in ruined buildings, forests, lava, or swamps. When combined with something like the F.A.T. Mats, you can get some amazing board displays. I wish that PP would have contacted Frontline gaming to incorporate their mats, as they are the best gaming mats I've ever seen.
That said, rules and encouragement for terrain would be awesome. In every game I've seen the woods have been a felt pad dropped on the table, and the whole table was usually flat. I would love to see more in debth terrain added and encouraged.
Caster Kills Win
One of the things I've really liked about 40k are the tournament missions produced by events like Nova, Adepticon or the ITC. In these missions you are encouraged to do things like hold objectives, earn kill points, or move into specific areas. It greatly adds to the tactical area of the game.
It would be nice if PP were to add more of this to the game.
Great Start Kids
I'm really impressed with the starter kit. It's hands down the best starter kit I've seen thus far for any miniature game.
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
The pseudo pre-measuring in WM/H was a distinct element that put several of our club off the game.
I wonder if they will ever go down the generic casters that you can customise route?
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
The pseudo pre-measuring in WM/H was a distinct element that put several of our club off the game.
I wonder if they will ever go down the generic casters that you can customise route?
Warmachine/Hordes has always been fairly balanced between factions, and I think that generic, customizable casters have far to big a risk of being incredibly unbalanced and game-breaking.
pre-measure is a go
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
I really, really hope that PP doesn't ever add random charge ranges. I think that, and random run distances, are two of the most ridiculous things about the current 40K rules. Nobody should ever fail a 3" charge because they were unfortunate enough to roll snakeeyes on the charge distance.
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
The pseudo pre-measuring in WM/H was a distinct element that put several of our club off the game.
I wonder if they will ever go down the generic casters that you can customise route?
They were on a video the other day (BoW weekender I think) and they mentioned that character customisation was something in the works. There wasn't much info apart from that though, so whether it's a league thing or something I'm not sure.
Maybe I missed it, but I wonder what they will do with the unreleased models from the current books? If they are released after Mk3, would they still come with a Mk2 card?
Thinking specifically the latest Colossals and Gargantuans, but I'm sure there's more.
labmouse42 wrote: 3D Terrain
That said, rules and encouragement for terrain would be awesome. In every game I've seen the woods have been a felt pad dropped on the table, and the whole table was usually flat. I would love to see more in debth terrain added and encouraged.
I heartily agree with this. The best games for me are densely terrained (it's a word) and uneven. I hate sparse tables which each side is a miror of each other where everhting becomes of a mosh pit int he centre or around two objectives, I'm hopin the changes to Jack/Beats rules will allow for smaller pitched battlea across the board.
I am not sue I like what I see. The cynic in me says that PP are just gouging everyone for a new set of rulebooks, and the video intro is just a way of masking that.
I host Warmachine, so I have no need to replace any of what I have as I provide all the armies and rules for play for myself and my gaming buddies. So I am likely to be playing Mk2 for a while to come, especially as I really cant afford to upgrade.
I never brought any of the MKII books! Everything I needed was on the cards and Warroom. Though I'm pretty sure the core rulebook will be free to download anyway so it doesn't have to cost you a single penny.
Orlanth wrote: I am not sue I like what I see. The cynic in me says that PP are just gouging everyone for a new set of rulebooks, and the video intro is just a way of masking that.
I host Warmachine, so I have no need to replace any of what I have as I provide all the armies and rules for play for myself and my gaming buddies. So I am likely to be playing Mk2 for a while to come, especially as I really cant afford to upgrade.
Orlanth wrote: I am not sue I like what I see. The cynic in me says that PP are just gouging everyone for a new set of rulebooks, and the video intro is just a way of masking that.
I host Warmachine, so I have no need to replace any of what I have as I provide all the armies and rules for play for myself and my gaming buddies. So I am likely to be playing Mk2 for a while to come, especially as I really cant afford to upgrade.
Prime and Primal books are free as PDFs by the way, and will continue to be in the new edition.
For the cards, I don't think the probably ~$60-80ish for all the factions is a huge outlay to pay for literally all the cards in the game over the life of the edition, especially considering the last edition lasted 6 years. That's less than what it costs for a BRB in 40k alone. Of course, that's if you're going the War Room route, which I am, as all indications are the new War Room is very good, and a lot more stable than the last one was at release. Cards will probably be a a bit more if you have a lot of factions, but still cheaper than a codex by a mile.
If they wanted to gouge people for rules money, they wouldn't be making their core rules free, and would update way more often.
Though for yourself, if you're hosting all the games anywaythere's really no reason to change editions if you end up not liking the changes
They will likely sell card decks for each faction. The main outlay will be for the faction army books, though the decks werent cheap last time and will need to be bigger again.
The good news is that I feasted on Mk1 blisters at half price sale for 2010-11. The same is likely to happen again.
I host large armies of Khador and Menoth, with some Cygnar and a small spoiler/taster force of Cryx. The change over might make it worthwhile buying Mk2 boxsets to boost my Cryxians.
It might also get me to buy Orborosas a fifth faction, which was the only Hordes faction I actually liked.
Once all this is done I might look for deals and if I find them transfer to Mk3. I dont have any troubl;e with what I see with Mk3 rules, but if it is a cost outlay I can avoid, I will likely do so, because I have so many other things my limited hobby budget can go on, Warmachine had a purchase phase three years ago while I made a collection.
Mk2 rules Mk3 sucks doesn't come into it, in fact I am confident the rules will be tight, though frankly they already are tight enough, and hosting has a strong element of self policing so thag wouldnt come to be anyway. My motives are all financial, though I am keeping a weather eye on PP's marketing plans because they smell increasingly GWesque.
Hosting involves a host mentality. Guest players choose factions first, my pleasure is owning the models and getting to play from a collection as opposed to a faction of pieces for a game. Yes regular gamers collect, but I am a collector first and a gamer second not the other way around. This effects what I buy and what lists I can field.
Normally what I do, and this goes for all the games I host. I make several pre-designed army lists, I agree a game with my opponent and points vlaue as appropriate, then offer a small stack of pre-typed army lists, the opponent can choose a list and takes an army. Given more time they are free to have the faction army book a list of all available miniatures and to make their own list. The guest also chooses which faction I play, or lets me choose. If they want to tailor their own list or bring their own army, I always choose. Otherwise they choose the faction. Most point balances have three or four lists for them, but larger lists only have one, which i refer to as a master list. A master list for DZC or either Warhammer is 3000pts (though my High Elves is larger). Master lists mainly exist to make sure my purchases don't get out of control, though characters are not fully included in this so I have more characters and swap them about.
For mega games you take the master list and play with the character allowance from the models I have available, for other smaller lists I will roll a d3 or d4 and take an army at random (I made all the lists so this works out ok).
All in all this means that I have large collections of models, but with a purchase cap, I am primarily a collector as are most host players. Most units in most armies are 0-1 for this reason, but this is not in any way a rule. My opponent and I can take 'off the peg' armies complete with characters item allowance etc and put them straight onto the battlefield (which I also provide),or can custom up their own army. Play one of my lists and I will face your force with a random army from a faction of your choice, build a list and I build will choose mine, again from this lists.
This system works for almost all the games I host and have several factions for which means: 40K, WHFB, Confrontation, AT-43 and BFG.
Warmachine funnily enough is the sole exception, though Frostgrave will also be an exception also once my warbands are up and ready. Because list tailoring is intentional and metagaming is intentional then I simply present the opponent with list of available models and ask them to choose two factions. However all my infantry units are 0-1 so you can't spam winter guard even if you wanted to, but I can provide a guest with a caster of their choice, a fair selection of jacks and units. It will be difficult to make a special formation list for Warmachine from my hosted units, but if a player can they are welcome to do so.
I don't mind my Warmachine is more collection than play and doesn't see a lot of table time.
The only miniatures game my group plays where we all have our own armies is Dropzone Commander, and even then I have two factions and can host. Though we are collectively looking at Infinity, I wont host that due to lack of personal interest in collecting for it, and we flirt with Flames of War.
So, new "Rumble" format play on 30"x30" mats with a turn 1 "reserve" like 40k : only advance deploy units are deployed before the game, everything else (including the Caster) comes in during 1st turn.
Also they bumped up by one the terrain requirement for competitive events, changed the rules for terrain placement to allow overlapping elements, and all terrains must be put a certain distance away from the board sides, all changes making terrain and set-up much more relevant. You can put obstructions right beside those flags now!
Orlanth wrote: They will likely sell card decks for each faction. The main outlay will be for the faction army books, though the decks werent cheap last time and will need to be bigger again.
You know you don't need the faction books right? Not sure you can call optional purchases gouging.
It's kinda' lame when you consider that's where you get theme lists and not much else other than pretty bland fiction and the model rules you already have from a deck/digital deck
With the books, you're basically paying for pretty pictures.
Re: custom casters. I listened to that show too (how the
heck does anyone get anything done listening to such long
shows? Note that I'm not a podcast man.) and the reasonable
guess is that they're either making these custom casters
weaker in some way, or they're developing them for casual
league play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the books, you're basically paying for pretty pictures.
Re: custom casters. I listened to that show too (how the
heck does anyone get anything done listening to such long
shows? Note that I'm not a podcast man.) and the reasonable
guess is that they're either making these custom casters
weaker in some way, or they're developing them for casual
league play.
I liked in Warmachine Tactics how in the campaign Jakes received new abilities or spells after each mission. Maybe it would be a random table for league play or something?
Hmm, new format looks interesting, and means we can get two games to a 6x4 with ease. Its going to be interesting to be sure, and the "ambush" rule will suddenly mean a hell of a lot.
Meanwhile, it's been spoiled in the forums that terrain bonuses will now only apply to models "completely within" terrain, so no more toeing the edge of a hill awkwardly to get a bonus. Same goes for cloud effects as well.
Excellent change, and along with what they said in the insider, seems they're wanting terrain to be a lot more integrated with the game again. I'll bet a dollar that difficult terrain penalties also change significantly as well, as the half movement thing was always a pain to measure, so perhaps a flat -mv when moving across terrain will happen?
Maddermax wrote: I'll bet a dollar that difficult terrain penalties also change significantly as well, as the half movement thing was always a pain to measure, so perhaps a flat -mv when moving across terrain will happen?
I doubt it would happen, but I would definitly get behing a flat 3" move in difficult terrain. That would help mitigate the effect that difficult terrain areas have on sluggish armies.
I'm curious to see if the new format means that they'll be more liberal with the Advance Deploy rule? Or if they'll keep it as is and we'll see a huge shift in the meta toward lighter infantry?
Gotta way that PP manged to pull me back in with this one.
pre-measure is a go
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
I really, really hope that PP doesn't ever add random charge ranges. I think that, and random run distances, are two of the most ridiculous things about the current 40K rules. Nobody should ever fail a 3" charge because they were unfortunate enough to roll snakeeyes on the charge distance.
I don't mind random charges in principle. IMO, maneuvering needs element of risk, whether it is due to not knowing exact distance now, or not knowing exact distance you're going to get. However, 2d6 inch charge distance is bit much, it would be better if it was d6+3 or something.
pre-measure is a go
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
I really, really hope that PP doesn't ever add random charge ranges. I think that, and random run distances, are two of the most ridiculous things about the current 40K rules. Nobody should ever fail a 3" charge because they were unfortunate enough to roll snakeeyes on the charge distance.
I don't mind random charges in principle. IMO, maneuvering needs element of risk, whether it is due to not knowing exact distance now, or not knowing exact distance you're going to get. However, 2d6 inch charge distance is bit much, it would be better if it was d6+3 or something.
PP have said they are removing fear and changing tough because those two things were too random and unpredictable. I am entirely confident random charges wont be a thing, and I am glad about that.
Yeah, but people hated it because it was way to random. I've won games solely because a model made three straight 4+ tough checks. In a game that normally gives plenty of ways to adjust odds, tough nearly always just came down to dumb luck.
pre-measure is a go
When 40k went to premeasure there was a lot of pushback, but I've now began to find it's a good element to the game. I wonder if PP will add things like random charge ranges into the game.
I really, really hope that PP doesn't ever add random charge ranges. I think that, and random run distances, are two of the most ridiculous things about the current 40K rules. Nobody should ever fail a 3" charge because they were unfortunate enough to roll snakeeyes on the charge distance.
I don't mind random charges in principle. IMO, maneuvering needs element of risk, whether it is due to not knowing exact distance now, or not knowing exact distance you're going to get. However, 2d6 inch charge distance is bit much, it would be better if it was d6+3 or something.
PP have said they are removing fear and changing tough because those two things were too random and unpredictable. I am entirely confident random charges wont be a thing, and I am glad about that.
I would be fine with random charges if that was the result of charging a Terrifying model, for example.
Bane Thralls have been removed from the game entirely!
Spoiler:
...to be replaced by Bane Warriors, which are the same, but trade Stealth for Ghostly
Not sure how I feel about most of the Cryx changes, but they do appear to be really balancing things. New Wraith Engine/Machine Wraith combo sounds deadly!
...to be replaced by Bane Warriors, which are the same, but trade Stealth for Ghostly
Not sure how I feel about most of the Cryx changes, but they do appear to be really balancing things. New Wraith Engine/Machine Wraith combo sounds deadly!
Looks mostly good. They needed it, at times it felt like Cryx was playing a different game to everyone else. "Oh, you're playing Warmachine? Too bad, I'm playing Cryx."
Only niggle for me is Scourge is still an utter spell. There (still appears) to be no downside to it. It's just on a hit, not a direct hit; so even if you scatter it still gets you. If you're just clipped by the blast, you're got too. Combined with Denny1's other abilities and spells this just was endgame for so many casters.
*You can intentionally fail charges.
*You can no longer charge friendly models (but you can slam them).
*Speed debuffs no longer prevent charges.
*There's a reduction in the number of upkeep hate abilities and spells outside of Protectorate.
*Venethrax gets "Field Marshal: Counter Charge"
Oh, and spoilers on Revenant crew, Rengrave, and Leviathans.
I love the 6 point arc nodes. With a free focus from that ability everyone is getting, they're like one of the best solo alternatives out there. Losing a point here or there is fine in exchange for that much of a points reduction.
1. heads up. We know about the change and every day more infos are told.
2. This is a refined version of MKII and NOT a totally new thing. Improving your already good idea is the way to go.
3. minion cross pact finally
Hence why I said it is endgame. Who cares if you've just dropped 4 (or 5 to boost) to drop the caster on their arse, as you're about to assassinate them. It's such a no brainer spell compared with the rest of her spells and feat that I thought it would be reigned in a little too.
Hence why I said it is endgame. Who cares if you've just dropped 4 (or 5 to boost) to drop the caster on their arse, as you're about to assassinate them. It's such a no brainer spell compared with the rest of her spells and feat that I thought it would be reigned in a little too.
I played a ton of MK2 except for the last year or so and found Scourge to be one of the least reliable ways to set up an assassination. The game is just full of knock down proof casters and other things that grant immunity to it. I've gotten a good number of kills with it against people who just didn't have that sort of stuff in their army, but at any organized event it was very spotty. Maybe it'll be more viable with 3 (6 in mk3 terms) point arc nodes that get a free focus. The problem is that either the caster can't be knocked down or other unknockdownable models will just block the rest of the assassination.
It's an incredibly powerful spell in casual play though. But it's dealt with in even more ways than Kreos1s' feat.
Hence why I said it is endgame. Who cares if you've just dropped 4 (or 5 to boost) to drop the caster on their arse, as you're about to assassinate them. It's such a no brainer spell compared with the rest of her spells and feat that I thought it would be reigned in a little too.
I played a ton of MK2 except for the last year or so and found Scourge to be one of the least reliable ways to set up an assassination. The game is just full of knock down proof casters and other things that grant immunity to it. I've gotten a good number of kills with it against people who just didn't have that sort of stuff in their army, but at any organized event it was very spotty. Maybe it'll be more viable with 3 (6 in mk3 terms) point arc nodes that get a free focus. The problem is that either the caster can't be knocked down or other unknockdownable models will just block the rest of the assassination.
It's an incredibly powerful spell in casual play though. But it's dealt with in even more ways than Kreos1s' feat.
Funny, because everyone in our meta goes against Denny (all of them) a lot. Scourge is used frequently and to great effect.
See; I love these things as you get players coming in from left and right to tell me why I'm apparently wrong (despite experiencing it on the tabletop. Neither of us is wrong. Different metas experience different things. ) and how I have no right to roll my eyes at this spell. It cuts both ways. People moan when I cast Silence of Death. I don't blame them. So, what anti KD tech is there in Khador? Well we have lash from standing in BTB with the mekanick UA and the same from marshalled pirate heavies there's also being an Iron Fang and standing near a Kovnik (but non of our casters are that). So, yeah...
Don't know what to tell you about Scourge then. If people haven't figured out how to deal with Knockdown after pKreos has been the Menoth battlebox casters for 10+ years, I guess they just won't learn and Scourge will keep being super awesome against them.
MattofWar wrote: Don't know what to tell you about Scourge then. If people haven't figured out how to deal with Knockdown after pKreos has been the Menoth battlebox casters for 10+ years, I guess they just won't learn and Scourge will keep being super awesome against them.
I'm not saying its "overpowered lolz", I'm saying it is an incredibly useful spell and has been used to great effect in our meta; mainly also as it is one of Denny's "backup" spells so people may not know it's full effects (yes, yes, their fault for not reading cards etc.) and are caught with their pants down by it.
My eye rolling was due to it still being on a "hit" and not "directly hit". There is no real downside to this spell. She can throw it out willy nilly (3 especially with all the focus she has to play with) without caring about other things she has loads of other debilitating effects. I know what scourge does, when playing Denny I try to mitigate it as much as possible mainly by killing her arc nodes so she has to come forward if she want to use it.
Different metas experience different things. Something that works for us here might not work elsewhere due to many factors including player experience and familiarity. Talk to our local Trollkin player, and Scourge is nothing against him, Khador however, it is the bane of many a Caster's existence.
I just don't think it's as good as a whole lot of other knock down spells and while it's cool to knock someone down every now and again, I find it's far easier to use Deneghra1's focus on debuffing on her feat turn and getting the assassination regardless of whether or not the caster is knocked down.
Some casters are more vulnerable to knock down than others, but the game has had so many knock down effects for so long, that I don't really take the idea of Scourge being some super strong spell that seriously. With Power Up giving focus all over and the relative cost of a Lancer possibly going down, I think Stryker1's Earthquake spell is going to be a far better knock down threat. And then you have the few casters that just have large control area knock down feats.
.Mikes. wrote: "Eyeless sight no longer penetrates forests."
Hah - yes!
Signed / Circle
Ah man - that kinda sucks... my main opponent is Circle and I was specifically running the Sacral Vault and planning to include a Mist Speaker for that.
Does it at least remove the cover benefit for being in forests, even if you can't "see through them" as it were?
.Mikes. wrote: "Eyeless sight no longer penetrates forests."
Hah - yes!
Signed / Circle
Ah man - that kinda sucks... my main opponent is Circle and I was specifically running the Sacral Vault and planning to include a Mist Speaker for that.
Does it at least remove the cover benefit for being in forests, even if you can't "see through them" as it were?
Forests give concealment not cover, Eyeless Site still ignores concealmen (It never ignored cover, though the carnivean did because sprays don't care)
Oh and as a Circle player, I usually stand behind a forest not in it, Unless I'm playig PBaldur, because who wants to walk ;p
The last time I remember seeing anybody talk about weapon locks was with the Minuteman, and that stopped when they errated weapon locks to only be possible on equal or smaller bases.
I kinda like the idea of them. But they're so situational as ot be pretty much completely overlooked, and the massive block of text in the rulebooks explaining them was imposing when I first started out.
I reckon within a month of Mkiii people won't even remember them.
Pushes got used a lot more, at least in my experience. But one of the main places they got used is probably going to change markedly (Synergy based lists) so hopefully it won't be a big loss.
Weapon lock was really nice vs the Avatar. Lock him in place and get rid of his shield or stop him hitting you back with the sword. Still, it was not often I got to use it.
Big changes the ability to move and shoot, and get the aiming bonus.
I'm liking hwat I'm hearing. I liked the idea of bringing a WW1-esque Trencher wall of artillery, but the cost was prohibitive. but the changes to the Chain Gun and it's not only 5 points? I'll have two.
Sea Dog Deck Guns actually seem pretty good at 1.5 MK2 points with the ability to move and fire (as all artillery have it) as well as moving after activation.
There will be crying for the nerfs to the Bronzeback and Karn, I betcha, but the changes to the Animi are the biggies.
Basically Animi are now counted as spells, always. Also it looks like lots of beasts are going to have changes as factions get a 'flavout' of animi assigned to them which reflect their play style.
Under the new edition rules, unspent focus points on a warcaster no longer add to the warcaster’s ARM. Instead, Overboosting now allows a warcaster to spend up to 1 focus point each time that warcaster takes damage in order to reduce the damage suffered by 5 (to a minimum of 0).
The quoted aim was to differentiate between the squishy yet casty casters from the tanky tough casters. Makes sense, and I like it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given the changes to Focus overboosting, and left over focus being able to be used for upkeeps I'm wondering what's going to happen to the Warlocks' Transfer rule....
Under the new edition rules, unspent focus points on a warcaster no longer add to the warcaster’s ARM. Instead, Overboosting now allows a warcaster to spend up to 1 focus point each time that warcaster takes damage in order to reduce the damage suffered by 5 (to a minimum of 0).
The quoted aim was to differentiate between the squishy yet casty casters from the tanky tough casters. Makes sense, and I like it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given the changes to Focus overboosting, and left over focus being able to be used for upkeeps I'm wondering what's going to happen to the Warlocks' Transfer rule....
Transferring remains unchanged. While it is true that you can potentially transfer far more damage than 5, there are numerous ways to shut down transfers whereas with Reinforcing the Power Field, all you have to have is a focus point.
As far as how this affects warcaster survivability, I feel like it does exactly what was originally intended. It stops lower ARM but high focus casters from being as immune, if not more immune to damage as the in your face front line warcaster (who it should be noted all received bumps to their ARM to make up for the change and keep them able to play aggressive like they are designed to do). Instead now with casters like Nemo or Harbinger or Severius or what have you, they feel much more in line with their intended design. Powerful arcane warcasters who are more vulnerable to being chipped away at by numerous attacks. Whereas high ARM casters like the Butcher or Terminus are able to stride forward into fire unabashedly and only need to really fear high powered hits from the enemy heavy hitters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus the 2 player box contents:
HORDES Two-Player Battlebox
PIP 70002 MSRP: $89.99
August 2016
The HORDES Two-Player Battlebox is designed to be a complete HORDES experience for two players right out of the box.
FEATURES: The HORDES Two-Player Battlebox provides two full battlegroups and two full units, along with a core rules digest, in-depth tutorial guide, dice, ruler, battle map, and a special narrative scenario—everything two players need to jump right into the game at a fantastic price.
1 Ragnor Skysplitter, Runemaster,
1 Troll Axer light warbeast,
1 Troll Bouncer light warbeast,
1 Troll Impaler light warbeast,
1 Trollkin Fennblade unit,
1 Beast Master Xekaar,
1 Cyclops Raider light warbeast,
1 Cyclops Savage light warbeast,
1 Titan Gladiator heavy warbeast,
1 Praetorian Swordsmen unit,
HORDES: Primal Digest Rulebook, Battle Map, Basic Training Tutorial Guide, Trollbloods Introductory Guide, Skorne Introductory Guide, 18” Ruler, 4 dice, 30 Fury tokens, 6 Spell Tokens, and 12 color stat cards
WARMACHINE Two-Player Battlebox 1 Major Beth Maddox,
1 Firefly light warjack,
1 Lancer light warjack,
1 Ironclad heavy warjack,
1 Stormguard unit,
1 Bane Witch Agathia,
1 Deathripper light warjack,
1 Slayer heavy warjack,
1 Reaper heavy warjack
, 1 Bane Warrior unit,
WARMACHINE: Prime Digest Rulebook,
Battle Map, Basic Training Tutorial Guide,
Cygnar Introductory Guide, Cryx Introductory Guide,
18” Ruler, 4 dice, 20 Focus tokens, 6 Spell Tokens, and 12 color stat cards
PIP 25002 MSRP: $89.99
I really like the Cryx birds and the legion... Tentacles. And Ghetorix looks awesome. I didn't think he was that much of an improvement til I looked at the old one as a comparison.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking about it, I dunno if these Khador models were posted here:
HIPS Rager/Mad Dog/Beserker
The Arcane Tempest Rifleman is a new Cygnar solo featured in WARMACHINE: Prime.
FEATURES: A strong ranged combat solo, the Arcane Tempest Rifleman boasts a number of excellent abilities including Arcane Precision, which allows him to ignore Stealth. His Marksman ability to choose the column or branch damaged when attacking a warjack or warbeast can be game-changing when used with the Deadly Shot attack type from his magelock rifle.'
All very cool - love the focus on resculpts lately.
The Ghettorix one was a bit confusing at first though because I could see a "face" in his mane - and it took me a few seconds to see that he just was howling at the moon.
Basically, the plan is to make balance mods when necessary, and release card booster packs once a year with any errata or balance changes, and probably rerelease the full card deck once every few years. Between this and the digital rule book (and War Room), this seems to be their move towards a living rule set, with tweaks to balance and play as necessary.
Yeah I think the sniper is big. Crouching models tend to be scaled up a little (theres examples in Infinity too) to keep their presence on the board (or sometimes probably just by mistake!).
AduroT wrote: They're still child soldiers, or that sniper is a giant among men.
Some comedian has messed with the scale of those renders. If you look at the original leaks of the new B13 their scale now matches the rest of the range.
Man some trolls players on Facebook are pissed about this for whatever reason. All seemed okay to me. Some nerfs but everyone's getting them.
TL;DR version:
- Reiteration of the new Tough rules (it doesn't work when a model is knocked down)
- Reiteration of factions getting a faction-specific pool of animi, and an added note that a lot of these are now range Self
- Mauler gets 1" range (like all heavy beasts/jacks, and will be 15 points
- Blitzer Bomber get MAT 6 boost. Blizter's new animus is Irrestiable Force (grants Bulldoze to caster), Bonber gets Farstrike as its animus (Range Self).
- Earthborn - Fury nerf to 4, costs 15
- Mulg gets a major nerf by the sounds - he's slower without his movement shenanigans, STR lowered to 12 and Fury to 4. His affinity to Doomy replaced with Bond which gives him retaliatory Strike. Keeps 2" range.
- Few changes to Axer, Impaler, Bouncer.
- Pyre Troll bacme slightly more accurate, adn RNG goes up to 10", animus cost down to 1 with RNG Self.
- Mountain and Glacier king boosted hitboxes up to 54, Glacier King also gets a MAT boost to 6
- - Welps get a native boost, as they're unchanged by lots of Fury mitigation gone throughout the game.
- Most heavy infatry down to 5 hit boxes
- Longriders only cav with 8 hit boxes
- Kriel Warriors, Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes, Sons of Bragg (aside from Wrathar, who still has a 2˝ melee range), Trollkin Champions, Trollkin Runeshapers, Fell Caller Hero, Stone Scribe Chronicler, Trollkin Sorcerer, Horgle Ironstrike, Janissa Stonetide, and most warlocks going up to a 1˝ melee range
- Champs get Defensive Line (+2 DEF in B2B)
- Kriel warriors look like they got nerfed, losing their prayers for 1" RNG and Unyeilding (also said in another update they'd be 'cheap')
- Fennblade UA lost In Step for Re-position 3"
- Sluggers lost damage boxes, get a ROF of d3, cost 8/13
- Burrowers lose Point Blank and it sounds as if they're getting hit with higher points to make for their ability to get backstrikes with new rules - 8/13
- Fel Caller Hero and Chronciler little changed
- Trollkin Skinner gets a big boost to damage output, gaining Weapon Master, a point of STR, Ambush and Treewlker, but losing some damage boxes
- Janissa loses ability to place a wall, instead gets an AOE spell to place a hill
- Madrak 1 and 2 trade Feats. There's a pick of Madrak 1's card
- Doomy 1 loses Purification, picks up a spell for Dissolution.
- Doomy 2 and 3 lose Goad, with Doomy 2 picking up Overtake
- Calandra losr Mercy killer, but went up to Fury 8
- Gunnbjorn gets Explosivo
- Explosivo rewritten - "Target friendly Faction model’s ranged weapons gain Damage Type: Magical . If the affected model directly hits and boxes an enemy model with an attack from a ranged weapon, center a 3˝ AOE on the boxed model, then remove that model from play. Models in the AOE are hit and suffer an unboostable POW 8 magical blast damage roll "
AduroT wrote: The Skinner didn't Get Weapon Master, he already Has it. Ambush is sweet though.
Just going off the wording: "The previous maligned Trollkin Skinner is now a stone-cold killer. In addition to picking up Weapon Master on the knife (picked up, not traded for),"
AduroT wrote: The Skinner didn't Get Weapon Master, he already Has it. Ambush is sweet though.
Just going off the wording: "The previous maligned Trollkin Skinner is now a stone-cold killer. In addition to picking up Weapon Master on the knife (picked up, not traded for),"
Biggest news in the discussion thread so far is that there's a
hint that Convergence medium based infantry have retained
8 damage boxes (vs. 5 for most others).
That makes at least some sense. Men of war are the only other unit to keep eight boxes, and they're pretty explicitly power armor, not just big dudes in heavy armor. Convergence stuff are frigging robots.
Man some trolls players on Facebook are pissed about this for whatever reason. All seemed okay to me. Some nerfs but everyone's getting them.
TL;DR version:
- Mulg gets a major nerf by the sounds - he's slower without his movement shenanigans, STR lowered to 12 and Fury to 4. His affinity to Doomy replaced with Bond which gives him retaliatory Strike. Keeps 2" range."
Those changes to Mulg might have a large part to play in some troll players annoyance! Always thought the affinity to Doomshaper was nice and characterful
Maddermax wrote:
Spoiler:
New 2 player Battle Box contents have been spoiled:
PPS_Valerie;3511110 wrote:For the Warmachine Battlebox:
Cryx Cryx Introductory Guide
Warcaster Bane Witch Agathia
Slayer Heavy Warjack
Reaper Heavy Warjack
Deathripper light warjack
Bane Warrior Unit (10 models)
Cygnar Cygnar Introductory Guide
Warcaster Major Beth Maddox
Ironclad Heavy Warjack
Lancer Light Warjack
Firefly Light Warjack
Stormguard Unit (10 models)
I don't see why they'd be limited, the ones last edition weren't. I think I'll probab;y get the Hordes one (have Skorne already, always been interested in Trolls and I love the new Troll caster) and I'd consider the Warmachine one too but I already have Stormguard, Bane Warriors, a Slayer, 2 Deathrippers, and an Ironclad.
They show the design of the new Cryx warcaster. Hopefully
the production models turn out better than they have in the
past. A poorly cast model would turn that haunted skirt with
the faces into a mess.
Also cards are floating around for Madelyn Corbeau and Satyxis
Gun Mages. Check your facebook sources for the pics (I can't
post them from here)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, lots of leaked cards now. Thunderhead, Typhon, Carrion Thrallss, ravagore, Gaspy2...looks like a French leak of some kind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, lots of leaked cards now. Thunderhead, Typhon, Carrion Thrallss, ravagore, Gaspy2...looks like a French leak of some kind.
Changes:
- Only one Jack at a time.
- Some models haave lost Jack Marshal, some have gained it.
- As leadership tests are a thing of the past Drive has changed to a special rule for when the marashalled Jack is in the marashal's Leadership range. Exmaple given - the Iron Lich Overseer gained Drive: Dark Shroud and a spell that could grant Stealth to itself and a warjack it controls.
- Once per turn a marshalled Jack can gain one of these benefits:
• Crush! – The warjack can make one additional melee attack during its activation this turn. Additionally, it gains +2 on all melee damage rolls during its activation this turn.
• Hurry! – The warjack can run, charge, or make a power attack without spending focus during its activation this turn. Additionally, it gains +2 on charge attack rolls and slam attack rolls during its activation this turn.
• Strike True! – The warjack gains +2 on all attack rolls during its activation this turn.
• Take Aim! – The warjack must forfeit its Normal Movement to aim during its activation this turn. Additionally, it gains +2 on all ranged damage rolls during its activation this turn.
Yeah, I would be shocked if it was. The purpose of the decks is to provide MK3 cards for models bought before MK3's release. They're not really meant to facilitate proxying, though I'm sure that will happen.
Those new casters are, well, new. Everyone who gets the model will have a MK3 card, so the update is not needed.
TheWaspinator wrote: The purpose of the decks is to provide MK3 cards for models bought before MK3's release.
Is it though? I mean, the current faction deck is there for anyone who wants it, and people would be rightfully pissed if they bought it to find it missing Stryker because he's in the BB.
Seems like PP missed a trick in terms of not removing the leadership stat completely from the game. As leadership tests are gone, why keep it on every card just for a small number of abilities that could be changed to not use it?
Because CMD is still a big part of how units work.
And at that point it's more consistent to keep it on everyone.
Like models with no guns having RAT, makes the statline look complete.
It's not only necessary for cohesion, but warcasters and models use it for issuing orders, marshals use it for their drives, and a number of other models use it for various special abilities.
The MK2 faction decks have been out of production for awhile now. These decks aren't meant to be an ongoing part of the product line, they're a transitional product meant for prior players.
Very interested in the new Hordes 2 player set. My cousin once bought me some Trollbloods to paint so they're kicking around. Plus I've always loved the invading Skorne and their beasts. Might tempt me into trying a Trollblood infantry, Skorne beast heavy force. To go with my as yet unfinished Legion dragons.
Man, I'm liking all these new sculpts, but damn if I don't like how Privateer wants to institute their new online policies.
Maybe by the time I finish painting my current Privateer stockpile of metal and restic, things will have cooled off and I can start picking up new models again.
The snake Nephilim looks cool, albeit a bit busy from that render.
Ha there is that! I also wanted to do legion. I'm looking forward to see how they have change Thagrosh as I like him the most.
This new edition has got me hype to want to try lots of different factions (I already own a MkII Journeyman legal battegroup for every faction), I must however contain it as I'm getting ready to move into house so I need to save my dollars for a few months. The struggle is real man. Though you bring up a great point with the changes possibly changing play styles for certain models. I think Mk III is a great opportunity to try a new faction you've been wanting to try.
Man those look awesome. Side note, has there been an insider release for Khador yet? I love their look and I'm thinking of getting their starter box when I get into the game.
jreilly89 wrote: Man those look awesome. Side note, has there been an insider release for Khador yet? I love their look and I'm thinking of getting their starter box when I get into the game.
Nope no Khador one yet. Still waiting for Khador, Circle, Cygnar... Think that's it?
jreilly89 wrote: Man those look awesome. Side note, has there been an insider release for Khador yet? I love their look and I'm thinking of getting their starter box when I get into the game.
Nope no Khador one yet. Still waiting for Khador, Circle, Cygnar... Think that's it?
I'm Pretty Sure they are going to be in that order with Khador next, then Circle and Cygnar last
I'm expecting soemthing from the Pureblood, simply because it's the sole heavy in the set. I loved the PB in mkii and thought it had a great niche, so kinda hoping that doesn't change.
I am expecting they'll do something with the Feral. It's almost completely overlooked in favour of the Stalker..... so I suppose the Stalker could be nerfed instead.
We know the Ravagers are getting a damage boost and being made cheaper and that the Skinwalkers are getting a damage nerf in favour of being more of a meat shield (yay!)
Also hoping the Various Argus get a points drop. They have things ot to bring to the table, but their cost was prohibitive.
On a related topic - anyone else notice the dwarfs weren't mentioned the Mercs installment? I'm wondering if they're getting promoted to their own faction.....
Uuuugh. No more Countermagic on the Druids and they lose 1 pt of Magic Ability and they can't pull and knockdown is separated from the push spell into its own spell. UA gives them Sacred Ward.
Official FAT mats for WM/Hordes. I hope this is a sign of PP taking a more active role in terrain-based products for MKIII. There are no shortage of people making Cargo Containers ... but there is very little steam-punky IK appropriate terrain on the market. Some decent official partnered terrain makers would be a boon.
Uuuugh. No more Countermagic on the Druids and they lose 1 pt of Magic Ability and they can't pull and knockdown is separated from the push spell into its own spell. UA gives them Sacred Ward.
Woah, niiiiice on the Feral. And looks like a point reduction on the PB. The loss of leadership on the PB is a bummer but not really a biggie. Now I'm wondering what's going to change with the Gorax.
Nothing in particular is happening with the Gorax. Most Animi appear on more than one beast now (meaning some were lost to the faction to make room for the doubled-up ones - we lost argus's, feral's, gnarlhorn's and shadowhorn's animus altogether from my memory)
Circle seems to have lost a lot of cool stuff, of course, like druid countermagic and bloodweavers' dispel attack. Mannikins can't make forests. Wilder can't copy animi. At least Wurmwood looks playable now?
I'm actually quite cheesed off at some of the Menoth changes that were revealed.
Spoiler:
Cataclysm for Harby no longer auto hits so she got nerfed to hell and got nothing to buff her up. Errants dont even get to keep spellward. It is now a minifeat.
Uuuugh. No more Countermagic on the Druids and they lose 1 pt of Magic Ability and they can't pull and knockdown is separated from the push spell into its own spell. UA gives them Sacred Ward.
Not worth it, I tried so very VERY hard to make Ravagers work in MK1 and MK2, but gave up because the rare times they shined were so vastly outweighed by the sheer amount of times they got stuck sitting on heart tokens they couldn't use, or getting stopped short because of a tough roll, and never surviving the counterstrike. Ravagers have always paid a very high price for the POTENTIAL of doing crazy amounts of destruction, but it so rarely actually plays out that way. And now this already mediocre unit got solidly nerfed for no reason at all. Overtake and vengeance are nifty, but the +1 arm does not offset losing 3 hit points (yes, I know almost all large infantry went to 5 hit points, still a nerf). More importantly they stayed the same MAT but lost Powerful Charge and Brutal Charge and Advance Deploy (with UA), as well as needing to be completely within forests now for the bonus. They even lost the ability to move past models in forests too, the most mediocre of mediocre abilities.
Tough still completely stops them mid activation, a 5+ to stop their entire shtick is something that's happened too often to bother with. Don't matter if the model is now knocked down and no longer tough if they never got that heart token from it to buy another attack. Skinwalkers are better tar pits and even with the nerf to Nuala, Bloodtrackers still do all the infantry-clearing I'd have Ravagers do, only better and safer. Wolves of Orboros were already cheap AND got buffed, so that fills anything left that Ravagers would have been useful for.
And that's my problem with a lot of the MK3 stuff I've seen: a lot of the already good stuff got minor buffs, the crazy OP stuff got solid nerfs (usually), but the mediocre and bad stuff got minor buffs at best and often they got even worse.
TL: DR - Having had a chance to go over the leaked cards It just feels like PP screamed to the world "major changes and rebalance EVERYTHING", but really they just settled for "Tone down the OP, maintain status quo, minor changes so people buy a couple new units"
. Reminds me of when I started playing near the beginning of Mk2, which similarly did away with some mechanics that had become broken over time in Mk1, streamlined things and made jacks more viable. This is the next logical step and while probably a bit overdue, late is much better than never 
