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If this topic has been covered before, please don't kill/hurt/flame/hack/laugh at/etc me for making another one.

Been thinking a bit on the stats of weapons in 40k compared to reality.
IF
A lasgun can kill the average person 50% of the time(not including extra shots or armor saves) he hits, but isn't able to pierce a bush, would it be the same caliber as the average pistol round in today's world? If so, why the change from rifle rounds to pistol?
IF
A .75 cal bolt can kill a man wearing tactical armor in one shot and is considered to be a smaller grenade launcher, while a .50 cal bullet can do the same over a mile away, which is weaker?
IF
The average Human in 40k has S:3, how much can he lift? Remember, not everybody today has muscles like theirs! Compare your arm to theirs and measure from there.
IF
A Missile Launcher can fire Krak or Frag missiles, why doesn't the Krak make an explosion of some sort?

Just a couple things. Later on, I'll get onto Plasma weapons and Ork weapons.

Ok do you know how big a .75 cal shell is it roughly the size of a 20mm to 23mm cannon round that we use today( In40k its a explosive projectice thats is caseless) So its packed with a sort of HE and some armor prenation power too from the books ive read.

*A lasgun can kill the average person 50% of the time(not including extra shots or armor saves) he hits, but isn't able to pierce a bush, would it be the same caliber as the average pistol round in today's world? If so, why the change from rifle rounds to pistol?

Its easier too recharge the power cells then too keep a supply of Ammo coming in from off world supply and demand( lasguns power cells can be recharged in standard fire around camp, If i remember right from a book i read)

*A Missile Launcher can fire Krak or Frag missiles, why doesn't the Krak make an explosion of some sort?

Due to the shape of the charge and if it a sabbot round in side the rocket there wont be that big of a blast raduis ( former Gunnermate and Weapon Tech in the navy) I know my Ordanace

I think the cover save represents, not only physical cover but also the cover obscuring the target.

I've been reading plenty of Gaunts Ghosts and Caiphas Cain novels over winter break, and I'd have to say that the lasgun is portrayed as a formidable weapon, capable of blowing limbs and heads off of human beings.

I'd have to think that Space Marine's strength would be comparable to NFL linemen strength, but probably stronger, somewhere in the range of a 600-700 lb. bench press, and a larger squat. Therefore, I have reason to believe that IG, such as Catachan would be able to bench press roughly 500 lbs., where the "normal" guardsmen would be capable of 300-400 lbs. lifts. This of course is pure speculation.

Posted By Kultofthebonedragons on 01/20/2007 1:01 PM
( former Gunnermate and Weapon Tech in the navy) I know my Ordanace

Oooo! I got a bunch of questions for you, but thats a different topic.

IF
The lasgun can blow off limbs, but has a crap combo Str and AP, I would guess that a mere las from it could be compared to a Desert Eagle .50 cal. That would constitute the lack of AP(for lack of accuracy) and the ability to blow off limbs.
And besides, the normal trooper is like a LineBacker today. They can take a few before dying.

But then theres the outdated Autoguns, which have the same stats as lasguns.

Now then, onto the topic of Ork weaponry
Even though their tech is both crude and random, the average shoota can beat a lasgun. That being said, along with the fact that they use bullets and not lasers, what is the caliber of those bullets?

Little know history about large caliber weapons...back in the day of the american spainish war in the phillipines(sp) the army was having trouble killing off the islanders due to the power of there 38cal pistols.. the bullets were just going thur the targets, so the army asked for a weapn that had knock down power and lower velocity Hence the 45Apc was made it had some pentration power but it had a know down power that could stop any one.

All those movies you see some one getting shot buy a large cal weapon and they get up and keep on fighting(movie special effects).

Just think about it if you were struck by a baseball bat that a line backer was swinging would you get up?? (bolter round)
No same person getting hit by a whiffle battle with the same line backer would you get up??
(lasgun)
thats the know down powers part.
now for armor piercing thats a different story, it has too do with speed and densness of the round( kinda liek the depleted uraimuian(sp) rounds used on the CWIS. Its only a 25mm round but its caplable of going thur 4ft of reinforce steel and concrete....( and thats the size of a bolter round.75 cal)
for a lason gun it would be some thing along the lines of a 38 cal or 9mm for armor piercing(normal ball ammo , which is a copper jacketted round with a soft lead core)

Ork weapons caliber all depends on what ever they find on the battle field, some have looted bolters, others have looted slug throwers that the gaurds use too have, or they just make up there own caliber, its Orkie magik as i like too call it...

Actually for a firearm to disable a human 50% of the time it hits is pretty good. You have to remember, a lasgun shot that grazes an arm or a leg is a shot that hits, but does not wound. In addition watch the history chanel, specifically the "shoot out" series. Plenty of tails about people taking multiple hits to the chest area from battle rifles and still being effective. Remember the most dangerous weapon of WWII was the machine gun, not because they were generally shooting larger caliber bullets, but because if you got hit by one you usually got hit 3-7 times.

Of course i will provide explanation to the mysteries, lets start.

""""A lasgun can kill the average person 50% of the time(not including extra shots or armor saves) he hits, but isn't able to pierce a bush, would it be the same caliber as the average pistol round in today's world? If so, why the change from rifle rounds to pistol?""""

Im sure your right about the precents.. i dont count on those things, anyway, as you state lasguns dont make sense in some aspects, why?
Well GW Balanced out certain spects of the game with 3rd ED, and some weapons got (stupid?) for the sake of balance.
Lets look at the characteristics of both Lasguns and conventional weapons.

LASGUN Info
2nd : Fires a explosive energy blast. Can be recharged with solar energy
3rd : Fires a beam or focused light, short duration high energy change on target makes it vapourise in a explosion.
Stats (2ndED) : 0-24 inch, STR 3, save modifier -1, AP D6+3.

AUTOGUN info
Autoguns are compareable to todays conventional weapons, if we disregard caseless ammunition,  made of diffrent plastics, metals and ceramics.
Stats (2ndED) : 0-24 inch, STR 3, save modifier -, AP D6+3

So basicly lasgun has a greater ability to penetrate personal armour, have greater ability to help troops without the ability to aquire supplies (ammunition)


"""A .75 cal bolt can kill a man wearing tactical armor in one shot and is considered to be a smaller grenade launcher, while a .50 cal bullet can do the same over a mile away, which is weaker?"""

OK lets start with some info here to.

Boltgun info
Boltguns fires a small missile or bolt, considerably larger than todays conventional assault rifles.

This bolt is made up 3 stages.  1. First the armour piercing tip.. (guess what that does?) 2. The reactive mass detonator detonates with sudden change in local mass.
3. Main charge explosives gets ignited by ractive mass detonator and goes BOOM inside the victim.

First i think its stupid to compare a large long range bullet with a short range assault round. Now to the comparison

12,7 (.50) Conventional FMA rounds have the tendancy to enter and exit without much damage (depends on how you se it) Also damage is determinated by how much energy the armour protection was capable to disperse. Bolter rounds however, does not suffer this.

19,05 (.75) The conventional Bolts used in a boltgun, explodes, inside of you!  (its not producted to be used for greater ranges! )

Which one wins.. well decide for yourself .

and to wrap stuff up ive got a last bashing
"Kultofthebonedragons"  Bolter rounds are NOT caseless! Never Ever!

I believe there a few pictures and stats in one of the older marine codex showing bolter rds too be caseless and saying it uses a caseless round....( dont ask me why they have ejection ports on the bolter or why they show casing flowing out of the gun)

altogh this is a very interessting discussion you have to remember that Ork weapons work only with sub-consious triggered psychic powers...

Been playing a bit of both 40k and Mercenaries(and the Punisher and Halo and etc...) and came up with something:

40k isn't designed to be realistic.

First part of my day, I broke out some of my IG(Star Wars) minis and screwed around a bit. Then I put in Mercenaries and let the AI take care of fragging each other. And you know what? It turned out realitivly the same!
In Mercs, when you shoot a dude and he doesn't die, he will probably flinch. This is a Save or a Hit but no Wound situation.
Things started adding up from then on. 40k isn't supposed to be realistic, it supposed to be a game of large and entertaining battles. Similiar to that which we view in video games and movies.

(Speaking of Mercs, I've been working on a Codex for them too. *mischevious grin*)

Yeah, first of all, 40K is far from realistic.

In any way. Fantasy is also unrealistic. They're meant to be fun.

But! Why in the name of Gork and Mork are Orks strength 3? Grab a cadian. Grab an ork boy. Compare muscle mass. Commence WTF-ing. Then, grab a kroot (S4) and an ork boy. Continue WTF-ing.

Seriously.

Fungus based life formes do not have the same volume to strength ratio for muscles as humans.

I beg too differ havent you seen the movie the thing( the original one not the remake)
that fungus creature was tough ..... and strong( but it was a movie too)

they had too cook the darn thing too kill it LOL

Posted By StarGate on 01/31/2007 12:33 PM
I beg too differ havent you seen the movie the thing( the original one not the remake)
that fungus creature was tough ..... and strong( but it was a movie too)

they had too cook the darn thing too kill it LOL

Watch the Sky!

Posted By Da Boss on 01/29/2007 8:34 AM

Yeah, first of all, 40K is far from realistic.

In any way. Fantasy is also unrealistic. They're meant to be fun.

But! Why in the name of Gork and Mork are Orks strength 3? Grab a cadian. Grab an ork boy. Compare muscle mass. Commence WTF-ing. Then, grab a kroot (S4) and an ork boy. Continue WTF-ing.

Seriously.

Yup I was going to say the same, its a game....but ya some stuff like lasguns and boltguns dont really add up but oh well...

40K ranges are compressed to allow you to reach across a table. Think about it. The average Cadian is 1.5 inches tall. Assuming he's 6' nothing, that would make the range of a lasgun 96 feet, or 32 yards. The M16 has a max range around 1.8k feet, a 9x difference. Missile and cannon shots are even more compressed, considering 72 inches is about 288 feet. A 120 smoothbore can shoot over a mile.

Weapon damage is also "averaged". A lasgun has a 50% chance of taking a soldier out of battle. In modern conflicts people can be wounded without being taken out of commision. Lasers could penetrate the lower abdomen and injure a person without killing them immediately. Lasers also would not cause any damage to surrounding tissue outside of the burn area. Note that ork and Space Marine toughness is as much about their bodies reaction to damage as it is ignoring it. They heal from wounds quickly and don't have to worry as much about blood loss and damage to primary organs. Nids are the same way, with few vulnerable organs and excellent damage control mechanisims.

So, a Bolter is a gyroget, shooting a high speed rocket that explodes at impact. That has much more energy and would do more damage to surrounding tissue then a laser hit, assuming that Lasguns don't use extremely short pulses.

Ork Shootas also look like they shoot large, slow projectiles. Soft metals like lead would deform upon impact and spread their energy to a larger tissue area.

In close combat, orks and kroot have differently proportioned limbs. Much like modern gorillias (orks) and sloths (kroot) thier limbs are deceptively strong due to denser mussle tissue and different proportions on the bone, giving them more leverage for the same mass.

Now for a real headscratcher, why do these amazingly accurate sniper rifles use hypodermic needles rather then good old .50 cal or 20mm? The Tau seemed to have figured this out, but nobody else.

But Orks are S3.
Kroot are S4.
So really, it's a case of Orks increased muscle mass having no game effect.
Because he's as strong as a gaurdsman.
Not very accurate if you compare it to "Even the smallest ork packs enough muscle and strength to rip a man's head from his body".
Apparently, Cadians can do this too!
Wowza.

I dont play orks but are the nobs and the bigger orks S4 and warbosses S5? As for the weaker boys who are the same S3 as guardsmen, it makes sence in a way as the gaurds are supposd to be tuff. #however if you move the orks up to S4 then marines would need to be S5 as logically or fluff wise a n ork is stronget than a gaurd and a marine is stronger than an average ork.

I've got it!
Ork Boyz are as strong but TOUGHER than humans, so that extra "muscle" is really fat!

Inquisitor Atkins, we request your assistance.

I'd say that the st3 ork is really a product of game balance. Choppas are mean, but very ork with st4 choppas? That would do a serious number on all MEQs. Its also a question of ratio, nobs are strong and tougher than line boyz. Orks are the only race whose unit champions are very different from the line troops, most acs just get an extra attack and leadership bonus. The thing about lasguns is that unless its a lucky shot and hits something vital the laser cauterizes the damadged flesh sealing the wound. To me thats its real down side, a weapon that stops the wound it makes from bleeding is a bit silly. Bolters are up close weapons. The whole philosphy of mosr marines is too fight as close ass possible where their strength, armour and conditioning give them a huge advantage. What about the caliber of Tau weapons? I don't even want to contemplate that.

There's all that and then there's Tyranid guns!

There is an in canon answer to ork musculature. Its not very efficient, ork flesh is spongey and resilient, its muscle not fat but the muscle is the not the same quality of human muscle. Though it repairs far easier. Remember that orks are in a real way walking mushrooms not rottweilers.

Whatever questions you have you need to direct to the Old ones - they were the ones who made them. Asked them why their body mass doesn't make sense

In the dark days of the ancients (read previous editions) it was explained that the average HUMAN toughness is 2 not 3.  The average trained guardsmen is 3.  This continued to be true in various publications of Chaos Cultists, although I would have to check the most recent.  Same goes for strength.

So comparing a S2 T2 human, to a S3 T3 trained guardsmen, or a S3 T4 Orc, or even an S4 T4 marine makes the difference more obvious.  Also, remember that the game stats are a composite of various real(ish) parameters.  I mean, a guardsmen with a bayonet vs a marine with a chain sword, vs an orc with a choppa. Strength is the sum of all the various abilities to do damage, and toughness the sum of all the bilities to ignore it.  So an S3 ork, using a crudely fasioned, poorly balanced, and proabably dull choppa has the same chance to cause injury (although is better at breaking armor) than a guardsman with monomolecularly edged bayonet using refined skill and training.  

After a fashion, scrawny cadians are the ones who can charge 20 feet and unconciously put their bayonet blade in the target's eye (assuming they aren't parried because of their relatively poor WS) while orcs just smoosh things.

 

 

As for why Lasguns, aside from the logistical concerns, there is no real reason to do use them over autoguns.  If you really want to compare today's guns to 40k era weapons, you to look at heavy stubbers.  They closely resemble modern heavy machine guns, but are still using 40 thousand years of innovation on the propellant, bullet geometry, material, etc.  Assuming only the most minor upgrade in that time, a modern .50 machine gun is probably S3.  So a lasgun (or 40k era autogun) packs roughly the same chance of causing damage as a modern 50, but lacks the cyclic rate.

 

That makes sense. How would you feel if a grot with a knife showed up in your living room? I would give it a 50% chance of at least damaging an average person.

the other 50% of the time there I'm assuming Chuck Norris shows up trying to catch his hors'de'orves (or-derv (sp)), or you pull out the gun you had ready in case yor T.V. "starts floating" you paranoid racist bastard (I apologize if that off-colored joke reference offended someone, I was only parroting a joke I heard some @ss-hole tell, not trying to propogate it, if it went over your head good for you)

As for the Bolters unique rounds, I believe it was born more of the M41 underslung on an M16, using one, then the other in a tight spot and then thinking "damn I wish these were combined! a direct fire high explosive round would make my life so much easier (and longer) right now!!"

Tau weps come from a chronic and genetic "NOT THE FACE!!!!!!!!!!!" reflex

Las is simply a furturistic version of the WWI/WWII basic rifleman philosophy, you get a good balance of killing power and supply conservation rate (no wasted ordanance due to excessive ammo usage, but still plenty of stopping power)

As for the comparisons, ugh, trying to figure it out makes my head spin

When I look at the differences between S values, I really try to take into consideration all of the different things involved. For example the S value of SM's is reflected by- Genetic enhacement, Training, Servo-assisted armor, Weaponry, and good old fashioned brute force. And that is only an increse of 1 over a Guardsman. An Ork on the other hand has to make do with only a big metal choppa, and bludgeoning force. I suppose it's like the Richter scale, values increase exponentially.

Well, since Tau use a particle acelerator to fire a very small peice of plasma that really doesn't do to much damage by istelf, its the shockwave that kills.

Think of it as a mini railgun but without the metal head. Teh round itself does relatively nothing, when shot at a tannk it simply passes right through, but the shockwave sucks the men inside out through that 6-inch hole it just made in the armour. Same thing happens to your insides. It goes straight through but then all your intestines, lungs, heart, and other essentials go flying out after it.

As many have said before me:

A lasgun can kill the average person 50% of the time(not including extra shots or armor saves) he hits, but isn't able to pierce a bush, would it be the same caliber as the average pistol round in today's world? If so, why the change from rifle rounds to pistol?

Las batteries way a LOT less than solid slugs, and are rechargable.

A .75 cal bolt can kill a man wearing tactical armor in one shot and is considered to be a smaller grenade launcher, while a .50 cal bullet can do the same over a mile away, which is weaker?

Depends on what you're doing really. They have completely different uses.

The average Human in 40k has S:3, how much can he lift? Remember, not everybody today has muscles like theirs! Compare your arm to theirs and measure from there.

The average humans in 40k are IG, which have been through training that makes u.s. marine boot camp look like a trip to the potty.

A Missile Launcher can fire Krak or Frag missiles, why doesn't the Krak make an explosion of some sort?

Krak grenades are shaped charges, intended to punch through armor in one direction.

Hope that helps. Didn't bother with the ork, tau, etc questions because I don't know that much about 'em.