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Taking the advice of the people in the tactica thread, I'm splitting this off.
A friend of mine and I have been playing 40K for 2 years now, on and off. I've never beaten him.He uses Tyranids, I use Orks. I've got a respectable win count against every other race in the game, but beating his 'nids seems to be beyond me.
My force has varied wildly over time, I've tried all sorts of different builds- shooty, walker heavy, looted vehichles, even a nobs bodygaurd at one point! (I maintained it wouldn't work, but he figured it would.)
Nothing works. He runs a couple of T7 shootyfexes and sometimes a T7 combat fex, or another shootyfex. He also runs a shooty tyrant. He either uses combat tooled warriors or shooty warriors, depending on whim. Small units of spine gaunts are used as tar pits, or sometimes hourmies, and genestealers do the killing.
In general, I find myself outshot, out manuvered, and slaughtered in hand to hand. There doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot I can do either. We play cityfight on a 4x4 board at the moment. I have access to pretty much every unit in the ork codex.
He's a very good player who makes very few mistakes, and likes to let me act and then react to what I do. I'm alright, I have been known to deploy badly or misjudge the odd charge, but I still have a healthy win record against every other army in the game.
(Once I scored a turn three win on an idiot controlling a nid army.)
So, I'm finally swallowing my pride and throwing the ball in the court of you guys.
What would you do? How do you beat Tyranids? I'm not too interested in theory hammer, if you guys have done it, I'd like to know, but I can theorise with the best of them. Oh, and I'm not gonna quit- been playing orks for 11 years now. Set in my ways.
Thanks.

Well, you can either try to outshoot him, or outfight him.

   If you would like to out assault him, think about suicide squads. Three units of truck boys, all with a nob with a powerclaw. Run them right at the Carnifex's and tyrant. YES, you will most definately loose these units. However, not only will they will kill a carnifex or two, they will keep them from shooting you. This is the best thing you can do. Also consider an army with 9 killa cans. Just like the truck boys you will loose a TON of them, but they will get the job done.

  Rokkit launchers are a joke against nidzilla armies. They are great against MEQ, but with the 2+ save of the big guys they don't do much. Better stick with big shootas. Looted vehicles can be handy. A Demolisher can give you a lot of the AP 2 you need.

  If he is feeding you guants to tarpit you, do the same to him, but better. Use two large grot squads with a slaver with a powerclaw. It is only a 118 point unit for 31 models. That should help you tie up the guant charge. The whole combat will more less be pointless ( each side has its only purpose be to tie eachother up).

First, it may be partly that he is better. If he doesn't make mistakes, and you do; the armies are secondary. (At least, I tend to lose a lot when I make more mistakes. )

He is stacking the deck by going T7 on you. Does he go T7 when he fights others? Or just you?

I would go with 3 full units of Skarboys, shoota and choppa. With S4 you can actually do damage. I think with 18 skarboys on the charge, you can kill one T7 fex in one turn. His 3+ or 2+ save will not help him.

You can run grots in front for the 5+ save, but on a 4x4 board, it may not be necessary.

You can take his stealers, just try and make sure you get the charge, or that you out number him. Your basic troops get 3 CC attacks for only 9 pts, stealers have better WS and will go first, but cost 16 pts for 2 attacks.

Think about using some of your support weaponry for taking out the stealers and gaunts, instead of the fexes.
Also use one unit to CC two units, and allow your other units to go around to hit the fexes. Similarly, either nail his CC fex with a full unit of 20 skarboys, or leave it for last. No fair fights here. And you don't want his mace/scythe tail to come into play.

trukks are cool, but easily penetrated, so of limited use.

Also think about taking 3 units of one war buggy. They can pack a punch, and even if attacked by a full brood, or a fex, it can only take out one buggy at a time.

You can out assault him. Use that. And try and get the charge, or sacrifice a unit to get a powerful counter charge.

Hmmm. In general, I've found that I can't get the charge- fleet of claw, extra dice for difficult terrain and occasional leaping warriors or gaunts pretty much seal that deal. Yeah, I think he is a better player than me, but not that much better. Not so much better that we should rarely even have a close game. I'm his only opponent. (He's not part of the club I generally play in anymore)(By the way, I'm not in any way complaining about my opponent here, he's great to play against, even when he's pounding me into the ground.)
I agree about the rokkits, and I've found scorcha traks do massive amounts of damage to his genestealer and warrior units. I've never managed to out assault him though- Skarboys get targeted by shooting and decimated down to maybe 5 guys (sometimes by a single barbed strangler shot). Or, if I try and use cover to screen then, two units of close combat warriors and some stealers will jump them, probably followed by a carnifex. Two units of trukk boys can indeed mug at T7 carnifex, with a smattering of luck. Of course, they'll get counter assaulted by pretty much his entire army after being shot to death the next turn, and you've just traded 400 points for 200 or so...

About the rokkit launchas, yeah I don't use them. Big shootas aren't really as frightening as anything he can put out, firepower wise, but they might chip a few wounds off here or there.
Grots, yeah, they'd probably help if he didn't know how useful they are and so always dedicate one round of shooting or so to wiping them out completely.

I've found that a squad of maybe 20 sluggas can take out 10 genestealers in combat. On the other hand, 20 shootas can take out the stealers and still be relatively intact to take out another unit. And you can still have a power claw in the unit for fighting bigger nids.

Hmmm. I'm not really seeing anything past "use 9 killa kans" that he couldn't counter fairly easily.
And even 9 killa cans are gonna cost 405 points. Most of his army is fast enough to stay out of the way until he's ready or hard enough to take them down.
Any other ideas?

"Two units of trukk boys can indeed mug at T7 carnifex, with a smattering of luck."

Uh, One unit of trukk boyz can mug 2 or 3 carnifexes.  A shooty-fex has 2 attacks in close-combat, and a low weapon skill.  They might kill one boy/turn.

Your nob can get 5 attacks on the charge and 4 the following turn, with his powerklaw.  Hitting on 3's and killing on 3's (or 2's on the ones he doesn't give toughness upgrades to), you should get 5 wounds in 3 turns.  So, he kills 3 boyz in that time.  You have 7 left to go whack the next fex.

I brought orks to the adepticon gladiator, played against godzilla 'nids, and got a massacre against them.  It's all about putting the powerklaws on the fexes. 

I'm sorry but that's not my experience.
My opponent tends to jump the trukk mob with a unit of genestealers, some gaunts and some warriors if they get tangled in combat for more than a turn. And then they die. Pretty fast. In a vacuum, assuming my opponent isn't smart, and never has a chance to shoot the incoming trukks, 10 trukk boys will reach the carnie. How many will actually reach the second carnie? Not 7. None.
And if I don't kill the carnifex in one round, the trukkers will die in the second. He doesn't play Godzilla nods, he uses warriors, gaunts and stealers to back up an anchor of 3 carnifexes.

Although Burna Boyz are usually a waste of points, it just occurred to me that against Tyranids, this might not be the case. Run one squad of Burnas with your Trukkers, maybe.

They can provide KFF coverage to the Trukks and Boyz (nice against rending), and, more importantly, can hose down the inevitable tide of gaunts or stealers he will counter-attack your Trukk Boyz with to stop them from killing the fex. Basically, you need counter-tactics. You could take down a fex...but he can stop you easily. So you need to stop his counter-attack before it starts, and something like Burnas seems ideal for this.

Another unconventional choice that might help would be Lobba batteries. Attempted pinning and they can sit both out of sight of the Fexes and out of quick assault by leaping gaunts.

The other thought I had was taking a whole squadron of looted Rhinos and using them for Tankshock and moving cover. But that might just be too nuts.

But overall, I see why anyone would have a tough time here.

-Adso

Remember that his opponent is not using the most common Nidzilla build. The shootiest Nidzilla builds don't usually use T7, or Mace Tail for extra close combat attacks, and they don't use Warriors, or the mix of stealers and gaunts Da Boss is describing. It really does sound a bit tailored to killing the orks.

Da Boss, most of this would be a lot easier to deal with without the darn barbed stranglers. The big template really hurts you if you bunch up, but spreading out really hurts your weight of attacks when it comes to the assault.

I do think the Grots are an idea you should keep trying with. Even if he does focus shooting on them, they're so darn cheap that you are mathematically taking less damage than you would be if he was shooting the regular orks.

It is of course tailored to killing my guys. It wouldn't be much fun for my opponent otherwise, so I don't begrudge him his list.
Yeah, the grot mob is something I really should get back into the habit of using, in combination with the other effective tactics. I actually thought (wrongly) that I didn't get cover saves against blast weaponry, but since I do those grot units become more helpful.
I'm currently trying a list that uses a lot of shoota boys, ammo runts, big shootas, the old "flash gitz in a dakkawagon" idea (with spikes and blades, for once), a demolisher, kans and scorcha trakks, aswell as shoota/scorchas on all my nobs. Who also have power claws for the hurting of his big nids. Warboss and Big mek with the shootas providing a little bit of extra close combat oomph and a KFF. Hopefully, this will work.
Or at least work better. It's against the normal tactica, but I think in my circumstances it's warranted to a degree. (I'd probably never use a list like this againt my marine opponents, but my standard list has no trouble with marines so that's okay.)
I must point out that while I relish a challene as much as the next wargamer, it's hard to keep my enthusiasm to play up in the face of so many consequative defeats. Still, i can always come back, as they say, for anuvver go.
What do you guys think of this idea?

Sounds good.  As you say, it’s not something you’d field as a take-all-comers list, but if you’re tailoring lists against one another, it’s absolutely worth a shot.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/16/2007 7:38 AM
It is of course tailored to killing my guys. It wouldn't be much fun for my opponent otherwise, so I don't begrudge him his list.

 

The counterargument to this is, of course, is it more fun for him to beat you over and over and over again because of a power imbalance between two codices, or to actually play a tight, challenging game?

Still, though the balance between the codices is not exactly where it should be, it will make victory all the sweeter when you do pull it off.

He's actually okay with us rewriting the Ork codex to iron out the inequalities. He suggested it, in fact. But it's kinda a point of honour with me at this point.
Which is why I'm a bit embarassed to be asking for help. I'm interested in everyone's opinions on the matter though, and especially those who have triumphed. It seemed to me for a long time the tyranids were a particularly horrible match up for orks. But people on these boards suggest other lists (which I haven't played) as the worst. So I was interested to see how you guys, who are on the whole, decent players, would handle my situation. Against Godzilla nids, I'd imagine the carnifexes would have to be spread out? Then they'd be easier to pounce on with trukks.
(I'm also painfully aware of the fact that this guy is a better 40K gamer than me. I wish I could convince him to play fantasy- I'm much better at that! > )

Well, here is an idea. Have you tried using feral orks? They still have grots with a powerclaw slaver available, plus they have a better BS for when you need to mow down swarms of guants. Add into that that they have cavalry as a more reliable way to get your nobs and warboss with powerclaw into close combat.

  And the best thing they have.....SQUIGOTHS!!!!  Three of the largest ones of these each with three twinlinked big shootas and 10 shootas with BS 3 will whipe the board with any unit short of a monsterous creature. Plus they are relatively cheap.  in a pinch they can also be used for countercharge.They only downside is you need to scratch build them.

  Don't forget the madboys. They can be doped up to strenth 5, all for 8 points per boy. Two madboys with strenth 5 will always beat one genestealer in close combat.

  Basically, you will be able to outshoot him, then when he gets close you can out assault him.

He can't do everything.

Get warbuggies and killer cans for their big shootas, and trash his stealers and HGaunts.

Use skarboys to hit the fexes. They are the *only* unit that can do damage without relying on only the Nob.

And He can't reduce them to only 5 if you run with a full squad.

Are his fex VC/BS or TLDev or something else?

This is a kooky idea, but what about playing kult of speed, throwing the trukkboyz at his fexes and tank shocking the genestealer broods with spike & blade warbuggies?

Em this is kinda embarrassing, I'm the nid player in question ") .

Should probably clear a couple of things up.
First of all the reason the army is the way it is (lots of gaunts/stealers/warriors) is because I think the elite carnifex is retardedly unbalancing. To me Nidzilla is a cheesy army to play and I didn't want to throw 20 T6 and 15 T7 wounds at orks (3 BS shots a turn and 24 S6 dev shots is just nasty). Once I made that decision I was left with the models I have to hand, which is about 50 gaunts, 20 genestealers and 12 warriors. I do take a HT but without any guard, wings, TL devs or warp field. As Hive Tyrants go he is definitely not on the top end of the power spectrum. The carnies are your standard dakkafex (not elite he has the 5th wound), sniperfex and sometimes a ninja fex or another sniperfex. If I have to burn points (due to lack of models/FOC slots) they will get T7 or another wound. Ditto for the warriors. They are usually ninja'd up due to having to sink 100 points somewhere. None of the fexes get mace/scythe tail and none of the warriors get a VC or BS.
I do play a different army against da boss than I would against a marine player but I'm not squeezing every last point out of it. There are a whole pile of things that I just plain don't do (max out on BS's/Devs, nothing but spinegaunts, max out TMCs) mainly because of my second point:
I'm convinced the reason that I keep winning is because orks are just underpowered. I am an RTS nut (Supreme Commander FTW!) but I'm not some ninja pirate (for added effect) strategist/tactician. To consistently beat someone by turn 4/5 with a complete massacre would require you to be playing against an idiot or playing like Rommel incarnate. Da Boss has proven many times against a ton of other players that he is definitely no idiot and I would be winning a lot more ranked games in SC if I was that smart. Even when he has (at my insistence) gone for the hardest cheesiest army he has the models for the results aren't changed that much. Orks just don't have a response for 3 I10, and 12 rending I5 attacks, and that's just one small brood of warriors. Orks can try and shoot but CoD means I can hide behind area terrain and then move/fleet/leap across and then something goes splat.

I've made suggestions like give all boyz 2 wounds and better guns (jeez make the zap gun D6+4 and remove the "it goes pop" rule) and the ability to get a better BS. My only hesitation at this point is giving all boyz the ability to have a 4+Sv, don't think it would have that much effect on other armies but I'm pretty sure it would hose nids.

Anyway point is I don't think it's the Da Bosses fault for this losing streak and please don't think I'm out to pound him. I play to win but I've tried to build a competitive army while staying away from what I thought would just be overkill. Although ironically a lot of the units I've been told many times by experienced nid players to stay away from (40/50 point warriors) are brutally effective.

I have no idea how good you or he is, but your army is so sub-optimal, it is hard to understand why he can't win.

Orks have *lots* of ways to counter that warrior unit. That warrior unit cost what 117 pts for *3* models? with 6 wounds? You are using Bioplasma for crying out loud. You might as well start using Without Number and Spore Cysts next.

For that same 117 pts, he can get enough slugga boys to kill those warriors. Or trukkboys, or some grots to tie up the warriors so he *can* get the charge. Or 3 warbuggies with Big Shootas, or Killer kans with big shootas.

With a vehicle, he has a 21" assault range, that should be enough to get the charge, at least some times. And he should have enough units to have some available for counter charging as well. Your 2 attk model costs 10, 14 or 16 pts. His3 attack model costs 9, and it can shoot too.

What tends to happen is that with the much higher I of the nids they clear or cripple the killzone before he can get a hit in. That's why the warriors are so effective (and bioplasma isn't _that_ bad ).

Hey Da Boss, I think your problem might just be that your opponent is better with his tyranids than you are with your orks. Keep trying and thinking and eventually you'll get it. A skilled opponent beats out a good army every time, assuming the skill is combined with an army that isn't crap.

")
Hmmm. I'm probably not a good player by the standards of this place- my attitude was always kinda to paint what I like the look of and try and fit my tactics around that, until recent times when I've been trying to get better at the list design thing.
Bioplasma works okay for him in general. But on the 117 points thing- I can get a trukk with 9 trukk boys for that, or one with 7 boys,an Nob and a big shoota instead of a rokkit lancha. Drop down to 5 boys and I can give the nob a power claw. I've thought about this idea, trukks as pure power claw delivery systems, but it seems like it wouldn't work too well- the warriors can easily dish out enough damage to kill the squad before the claw can strike. Againt non close combat carnifexes, yeah, it might be a plan. As for the kans, I can get two for 90, 3 for 135. On average, with shooting, they'll do 2 wounds a turn, 1 of which the warriors will save. On the other hand, they're very easy to immobilise, or just plain blow up. So I'm not sure how they compare exactly. Sluggas versus warriors? 117 points gets me 13 sluggas. Umm. 13. With no nob, strength 3 and a 6+ save? Not exactly durable! Three traks are a good investment though, and can be relied upon to kill a couple of warriors if they close quickly.
Am I totally out of whack here?  I just seems to me that warriors are quite good against orks, or at least hard to compare directly in terms of points and killing power because of their status as synapse creatures.
As for the points comparison based on attacks- hormies are faster and have a higher initiative (I assume that's the 10 pointer?), and a better save, stealers are faster, higher I and rending, as well as a better save. What is the 14 pointer? Unit by unit, I can take them out. As a whole army, I have difficulty.
Also, Duke_Sam: Curses!I knew posting my new build up here would mean you'd find it
 

A big unit (30) of grots sent forward to take the initial charge works well. The "grot speedbump" will die horibly, but kept out of 6 inches from the rest of the army will prevent the bugs from massacre rolling into another unit. On your turn, advance 6", shoot like crazy, assault. Your mobs should all have Nobz with power klaws in them. You charging prevents charge bonuses, so those pesky genestealers won't get an extra attack. Let him do his worst, then drag them down. You should have a minimum of 20 models in all your mobs. Against the T7 critters you will lose a few boyz every turn (str3 can't hurt T7) but your nob w/ a PK (which can't be singled out in HTH) will wound mr carnifex on a 3+. Be sure to keep a couple of units back to dump into combat in later turns. It will get nasty, and the bodycount will be high, but you should come out on top. Judging from what you said he had in your original post you should have him out numbered atleast 2 to 1.

Yep, definitely going to go back to using gretchin. I rarely outnumber him though, by too much anyway.
He likes his gaunts.The grots will change that.

Da Boss, You have to outnumber him.

Tyranids big advantage is cheap troops He has given that up by dumping points into models.
THe only armies that are cheaper than NIds, are IG and ORKS.


You do have responses for this. First, the warriors can't fleet. They can have wings, or leaping, both give an 18" assault. But you have a few responses to that.
1) your truck boys have an even larger assault distance, though not through terrain.
2) you have cheap troops. Let one unit (preferably small, or cheap) get charged, and counter charge. Remember, Bio Acid is only good for the first round of CC. After that those warriors are stuck with 3 attacks each. You should have plenty of units to counter charge.
3) In either of the above, *you* win initiative against the warriors.
4) stay farther away, Use those warbuggies and killer kans to spray death from a distance There are a few long range models to worry about, but otherwise...


Buffed CC warriors, if allowed the charge, should get about 6 kills. There really should be more Orks than 6 in the killzone.
And even if there isn't. You pile in, and next next turn, no Bioplasma, and no charge bonus. You take another 4 kills, and then get 30 attacks back at him. Or...
you counter charge with another unit.

Skarboys are the only unit you have that can hurt the T7 fex. Otherwise you are relying on a 'hidden powerfist' with lots of ablative armor. Either should work, they are shooty fexes, not the biggest CC threat to Orks.

Throw big units of CC at the Fexes, shoot the heck out of the gaunts, stealers, warriors; assault the warriors.

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 11:13 AM
 Remember, Bio Acid is only good for the first round of CC.

Not according to my codex - is that some FAQ thing

Posted By puree on 04/22/2007 11:45 AM

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 11:13 AM
 Remember, Bio Acid is only good for the first round of CC.

Not according to my codex - is that some FAQ thing

Ah -think I realise what happened, you've confused bio-plasma, which gives an extra attack every assault phase, and acid-maw which is first round only (but isn't extra attacks).

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 11:13 AM
Da Boss, You have to outnumber him.

Tyranids big advantage is cheap troops He has given that up by dumping points into models.
THe only armies that are cheaper than NIds, are IG and ORKS.

Orks just don't have a response for 3 I10, and 12 rending I5 attacks, and that's just one small brood of warriors. Orks can try and shoot but CoD means I can hide behind area terrain and then move/fleet/leap across and then something goes splat.

You do have responses for this. First, the warriors can't fleet. They can have wings, or leaping, both give an 18" assault. But you have a few responses to that.
1) your truck boys have an even larger assault distance, though not through terrain.
2) you have cheap troops. Let one unit (preferably small, or cheap) get charged, and counter charge. Remember, Bio Acid is only good for the first round of CC. After that those warriors are stuck with 3 attacks each. You should have plenty of units to counter charge.
3) In either of the above, *you* win initiative against the warriors.
4) stay farther away, Use those warbuggies and killer kans to spray death from a distance There are a few long range models to worry about, but otherwise...

What tends to happen is that with the much higher I of the nids they clear or cripple the killzone before he can get a hit in. That's why the warriors are so effective

Buffed CC warriors, if allowed the charge, should get about 6 kills. There really should be more Orks than 6 in the killzone.
And even if there isn't. You pile in, and next next turn, no Bioplasma, and no charge bonus. You take another 4 kills, and then get 30 attacks back at him. Or...
you counter charge with another unit.

Skarboys are the only unit you have that can hurt the T7 fex. Otherwise you are relying on a 'hidden powerfist' with lots of ablative armor. Either should work, they are shooty fexes, not the biggest CC threat to Orks.

Throw big units of CC at the Fexes, shoot the heck out of the gaunts, stealers, warriors; assault the warriors.

I would say Tyranids biggest advantage is adaptibility.

Spinegaunts are cheaper than ork boyz.Usually, I'm facing 4 units of 8 spineys and two units of 6-8 genestealers.
I've pointed out the failings of Trukk boys versus Warriors- orks, on the charge, assuming they pass their Waaagh test, are I4. Warriors are I5. 6 kills equals most of the squad. I attack back with 12 normal attacks- 6 hit, 2 wound, he saves one, 1 wound off a warrior. Nob swings with his powerclaw, assuming he wasn't killed in the kill zone, and hits twice, killing one more if I have a bit of luck. Then, I get to take my break test! Yay!

Also, on the charge/counter charge thing, this relies on Duke_Sam being stupid. He can see a counter charge as easily as I can. He's likely to just shoot the lure unit out of existence or tar pit it with fearless spine gaunts.

Again, in a vaccuum, skarboyz and hidden claws are great against carnifexes, but my opponent is rarely stupid enough to leave them on their own for long enough for me to down them- counter assault usually leads to my rapid demise.

You say shoot the heck out of the other units, and that is effective, yes. Problem is, his shooting is more effective. Barbed strangler and devourer shots can easily gut my  6+ save close combat units. Venom cannons can cripple my trukks with penetrating hits or just plain explosions. Even the spineys are twin linked.
I'm trying for an even more shooty approach now, with power claw nobs and ICs providing the close combat  punch, and I'll report back how it works.
If it's not, I'll take your advice and try a really big horde, but my thought is that it'll get  slaughtered.

Thanks for that catch. Yeah, I thought they were both first round only. (Despite reading it several times... )

edit: Thats why I love these discussions, I get to learn the rules better.

Trukkboys vs warriors.

Disembark
Fire 9 pistols, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Fire template, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Trukk Big shoota hit 1 wound .5 unsave .25

At this point, there is about a 75% chance that you are eliminated one of the 3 warriors. If you are clever, you can even use a warbuggie to shoot this same unit, from nice and far away.

Assault
3 warriors,
3 BP attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, .833 unsaved
9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3 wound, 2.5 unsaved.
So *if* you didn't kill one in shooting, you lose 3.3 in hth
If you did kill one in shooting, you lose 2.2

Now you get 21 attacks in return
21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 3.5 wound, 1.75 unsaved.

So there is about a 50% chance you have killed two of them at this point. and only lost 2-3 yourself.


Counter-charging: If you are right, that you can never pull this off, and he can pull it off all the time, then stop playing now.
You don't give him a choice. Same thing he does, he moves spinegaunts towards you, if you charge them, he counters,if you don't, he bogs youdown, and charges next turn.
*YOU* can do the same thing, but with (even cheaper) grots.
Or use Burna boys, he *can't* ignore them, they are too dangerous.

He is 'shootier'. BULL!.. His BS will hit once every 2 turns, the devourers have a range of **18"** and only move 6". You are trying to shoot all of those things out in front, the warriors, stealers, spineys. If you keep your range, the devilfex will not have a chance to fire for a while. The spineys are only 12" range. And only if they don't fleet.

I can't cover every situation, you have to be able to see his strengths and weaknesses. If you can't get to his warriors, because they are behind a spiney screen, then move up to 12" from the screen and Rapid fire them. Or if the warriors are too close, stay farther away and shoot them normally.

Get some template weapons, your BS doesn't matter at that point. The warbuggies are cheap, and so are the Killer Kans.

He only has so many units. They can't be everywhere doing everything.

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 3:02 PM
Trukkboys vs warriors.

Disembark
Fire 9 pistols, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Fire template, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Trukk Big shoota hit 1 wound .5 unsave .25

At this point, there is about a 75% chance that you are eliminated one of the 3 warriors. If you are clever, you can even use a warbuggie to shoot this same unit, from nice and far away.

Assault
3 warriors,
3 BP attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, .833 unsaved
9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3 wound, 2.5 unsaved.
So *if* you didn't kill one in shooting, you lose 3.3 in hth
If you did kill one in shooting, you lose 2.2

Now you get 21 attacks in return
21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 3.5 wound, 1.75 unsaved.

So there is about a 50% chance you have killed two of them at this point. and only lost 2-3 yourself.


Counter-charging: If you are right, that you can never pull this off, and he can pull it off all the time, then stop playing now.
You don't give him a choice. Same thing he does, he moves spinegaunts towards you, if you charge them, he counters,if you don't, he bogs youdown, and charges next turn.
*YOU* can do the same thing, but with (even cheaper) grots.
Or use Burna boys, he *can't* ignore them, they are too dangerous.

He is 'shootier'. BULL!.. His BS will hit once every 2 turns, the devourers have a range of **18"** and only move 6". You are trying to shoot all of those things out in front, the warriors, stealers, spineys. If you keep your range, the devilfex will not have a chance to fire for a while. The spineys are only 12" range. And only if they don't fleet.

I can't cover every situation, you have to be able to see his strengths and weaknesses. If you can't get to his warriors, because they are behind a spiney screen, then move up to 12" from the screen and Rapid fire them. Or if the warriors are too close, stay farther away and shoot them normally.

Get some template weapons, your BS doesn't matter at that point. The warbuggies are cheap, and so are the Killer Kans.

He only has so many units. They can't be everywhere doing everything.

Hmmm. True about the pistols shooting- I forgot that it's much more effective against warriors, thanks!
About counter charging: I can see how I could pull it off- sitting a trukk back to jump on him for example. Aside from that, he's faster than me, on the ground. So he can tar pit me with spine gaunts and then hit me with stealers- no countercharge involved! It's not that he always gets the counter charge, or charge, just the majority of them. My range may be greater, with big shootas, but 9 shots a turn yield 3 hits, against gaunts I kill 2 or so. Against warriors, knock off a wound. Same for stealers. Fexes and Tyrants, well, they're long shots. Really, really long shots.
A barbed strangler hitting half the time is pretty damn awful- losing 8 or so skarboyz to a shot is pretty bad!
Devourer can pump out an impressive 7 wounds a turn with regularity. Spineys are twin linked, making them suprisingly accurate.
I make pretty extensive use of template weapons- scorchas on every nob, traks with flame throwers. They get the job done. But they don't make up for my loses in other areas.
Um. I'm sorry if I seem like a gakker for asking this (and I appreciate your help so far, if not the slightly condescending tone it's being offered in), but do you actually play Orks Vs. Nids regularly?(As Orks)
Thank you, really, for trying to help me out with this stuff though.

It's usual for him to have 1HQ choice, 6 troops choices, 2 elites choices and 3 heavy support choices.

No, I play Nids, and I know what I hate to see.

Posted By coredump on 04/22/2007 3:01 PM
Trukkboys vs warriors.

Disembark
Fire 9 pistols, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Fire template, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Trukk Big shoota hit 1 wound .5 unsave .25

At this point, there is about a 75% chance that you are eliminated one of the 3 warriors. If you are clever, you can even use a warbuggie to shoot this same unit, from nice and far away.

Assault
3 warriors,
3 BP attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, .833 unsaved
9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3 wound, 2.5 unsaved.
So *if* you didn't kill one in shooting, you lose 3.3 in hth
If you did kill one in shooting, you lose 2.2

Now you get 21 attacks in return
21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 3.5 wound, 1.75 unsaved.

So there is about a 50% chance you have killed two of them at this point. and only lost 2-3 yourself.

I think you are being overly optimistic for the orcs and overly pessimistic for the nids.  In isolation that scenario seems a losing propsosition for the orcs.  Whilst there doesn't seem to be a description of the actual warriors used (just hints of some of the morphs), the nid player has indicated he tricks them out just to burn points.  I'd assume that means Bio-plasma, Toxin sac, Rending claw, +I, +Ws, +Sv. Some of those we know he takes, the others I'm guessing at, +WS vs orcs just seems to obvious.

[Fire 9 pistols, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Fire template, hit 3 wound 1.5, unsave .75
Trukk Big shoota hit 1 wound .5 unsave .25

At this point, there is about a 75% chance that you are eliminated one of the 3 warriors.]

My quick back of envelope calculation (quite literally - bank statements have a use!) puts that at ~55%.

[Assault
3 warriors,
3 BP attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, .833 unsaved
9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3 wound, 2.5 unsaved.
So *if* you didn't kill one in shooting, you lose 3.3 in hth
If you did kill one in shooting, you lose 2.2
]

Assuming he is using +WS (he may not) the S6 plasma, and 9 rending attacks, that would average slightly over 5 kills for 3 warriors, or 3 if hes down to just 2 warriors, though 2 warriors are almost as likley to kill 4 as they are 3. (24% to 27%).

[ Now you get 21 attacks in return
21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 3.5 wound, 1.75 unsaved. ]

1 wound being modal average, though 21 attacks is assuming at least a bit of luck on his behalf. 18 or less attacks is more likely. At 18 attacks you're odds on to only get 0 or 1. At 15 attacks (4 dead orcs) you are more likely to flunk it totally  than score 2 wounds.

[So there is about a 50% chance you have killed two of them at this point. and only lost 2-3 yourself.]

The chance he will kill a warrior shooting, and then have enough attacks over to kill another is pretty slim, even at the shooting part he only had just over that 50% chance of killing the first warrior. I've not done all the maths, but gut feeling, is about a 20-25% chance of ending with 2 dead warriors, for 3 or 4 orcs.

That, however, is only half the story. There is another assault phase before you get to do anything else (if you havnt run/cut down already).  Even if nothing else joins, the orcs are fighting a bad fight - their efficiency on subsequent rounds drops hugely as they can't shoot or get extra attacks.  If he still has 3 warriors left then kiss your orcs goodbye.  If he has 2 left, then you probably arent going to have enough left to do anything more and get cut down running away. Even if he only has 1 warrior left he may get the 5th orc to claim a half dead unit (and possibly still survive the round).

The problem being that ultimately the nids are far more likely to win and gain full VPs than the orcs, who have smallish chance of winning, and even some of that is probably seeing giving up half VP. Winning really depends on doing well in the initial shooting part of that plan so supporting fire, as you suggest, is extemely valuable, in fact I'd say a neccessity, as if you don't nail at least 1 warrior at that point then you are committed to what is highly likely a badly lost fight.

As the players involved have indicated, kitted out warriors really outclass basic orcs, I have visions of the start of the LoTR film, massed orcs charge the stationary warriors, who wait till they arrive then, with a flick of the talons, butcher the entire the first wave.