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I've got a little tournament coming up on the 8th of March that I'd like to break out my Guard for. As I said, it's 1850 points - as a tournament list, I don't want to pull any punches with this list, so let me know what you all think:

Doctrines: Veterans, Special Weapon Squads, Grenadiers, Drop Troops (*), Carapace Armor(^)

^* Junior Officer
^* Staff w/ 4 Meltaguns

^* SWS w/ Demo Charge, 2 Meltaguns
^* SWS w/ Demo Charge, 2 Meltaguns
^ Fire Support w/ 3 Autocannons
^ Fire Support w/ 3 Autocannons

^* HVets (5) w/ 3 Plasma Guns
^* HVets (5) w/ 3 Plasma Guns
^* HVets (5) w/ 3 Plasma Guns

STG Squad (8) w/ 2 Plasma Guns
STG Squad (8) w/ 2 Plasma Guns

^* Junior Officer
^* Staff w/ 4 Meltaguns

^ Line Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Vet Sgt.
^ Line Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Vet Sgt.
^ Line Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Vet Sgt.

Hellhound w/ EA

Leman Russ w/ Hull Lascannon, Smoke
Leman Russ w/ Hull Lascannon, Smoke


1846 Points

95 Models, 3 Vehicles

7 Deep Striking suicide squads gives my opponent a solid 600 or so victory points a game, but I think if I use them right they'll more than pay for themselves. I have no idea what kind of missions we'll be playing, or what types of opponents will be prevalent. I know at least one Necron player will be there (extrenm54), but I already know that this list has the tools to take his list on. Does this list balance mobility and steadiness, horde and MEQ killing ability altogether?

Be critical. Any comments and such are appreciated. Just keep in mind that while there are some things that need to be bought before this game, I can't be breaking the bank on purchases.

CK

You're right, this is pretty similar to my list. The only big problem I see is Carapace Armour. Maybe I'm missing something, but spending a lot of points to make the already overcosted Guardsmen slightly less junky seems like a waste. If you cut out Carapace Armour, you could add another Leman Russ and another Hellhound. Or three more line squads. Now, you said that you can't break the bank for this list, so I'm going to assume you don't have the minis to do that. If that's the case, maybe consider other doctrines that cost points but are free to your wallet. Maybe give Light Infantry and Chameleoline to a bunch of your squads. That adds more durability than carapace and also makes your inf more flexible. Also consider induction if you have minis from other Imperial armies.

Otherwise, it looks good. I don't think I'd run only 3 vehicles in a Guard list, unless they were three Basilisks being shielded by a hundred Guardsmen. You almost certainly know more about the game than I do, but I'd rather have no tanks or a lot of tanks. As is, you have a relatively small number of clear targets for enemy AT fire. That makes their job pretty easy.

You're right about the Carapace Armor. I haven't really had the opportunity to use it in larger games, but seeing as how my troops will go from having no save to a 4+ save in almost all situations (most of my opponents have a hideous number of AP 5 weapons), I wanted to test it out. Cameleoline is definitely an option that I am considering as a replacement, though. I've also heard good things about Carapace Armor in drop armies, but those claims could very well be based on no real evidence.

If I did not have the problem of having only half of my army with me, I would definitely take your advice regarding dropping the Carapace Doctrine and would be fielding 3 Russes and 3 Hellhounds, after also getting rid of my Line Infantry Squads. However as I said, money is the real limiting factor at the moment, which means my usually well-endowed Heavy Support choices are going to be pretty lightweight for the tournament.

My brother plays Grey Knights, so I might just borrow a couple squads of Deep Striking Grey Knight Terminator Squads instead of going out and buying more models (which I will need to do anyway). Thanks for the input though - I'll probably be changing my list accordingly in the next week or so as I get the chance to see exactly what models are available to me.

CK

Isn't the value of Carapace Armour for drop squads even worse than it is for line squads? Drop squads are as small as possible, meaning that less models benefit from the points spent (which remains at 20). On the other hand, they are more vulnerable than most troops, so maybe it's worthwhile. If 4+ saves give the armies you play against a lot of trouble, give Carapace a try. I'd like to know how that works out.

Grey Knight termies would make fantastic counterattack units, but I can't help but think of how much Guard goodness you can get for their points cost. Anyway, use what's available to you. Good luck.

IMO, your list isn't very efficient.

You have 240 points for Carapace. Newsflash: Guardsmen die. Spending a whopping 20 pts per squad will not prevent this from happening. If you want guys not to die, field Power Armour. Save the points and just buy more guns. In exchange for Carapace, you can practically afford a 3rd Russ and a 2nd Hellhound - which would you rather have? Right. Field the tanks.

You didn't take Heavy weapons on your BS4 Veterans? Veterans are your only way to get BS4 Heavies.

You also have 60 points on non-minimum Grenadier squads (who can't Deep Strike). How about taking fewer overpriced Grenadiers for BS4 Heavy weapons.

You have 10 points per Russ on hull Lascannon upgrades. I think it's better to spend those 10 points for a S10 AP2 main gun with AV13 sides and AV11 rear.

Again, my suggestions, but your list, so take it with a grain of salt.

Out of curiosity, how do you intend to use the Grenadiers?

I also don't really see the benefit of Carapace at the cost. You could have a tank and a half extra in the army, or a tank and another lascannon team. I played a similar army at 2000 points just yesterday and it worked pretty well. It had two Demolishers and a regular Leman Russ, and two hellhounds. I really think you need more tanks, and you can get them almost without losing anything else in your army.

Plus, you'd get something like close order drill for losing carapace, and that extra +1 LD really helps with the shooting elements of guard.

Some of the other things I do with the army (ally with Demonhunters to get an Inquisitor lord + Tarot and Psyhood and an assasin) are maybe cheesy or maybe useless, depending on your opinion, but you may be able to replace a veteran squad and the autocannons with those and get something that may give you an advantage. I do like the autocannons though, but HW squads are pretty easy to send off the board at guard leadership.

I understand that you all don't really like Carapace Armor. I don't either, at the current points level, but given that half of my Guard are in New York, while I sit in South Carolina, my hands are tied (unless I want to buy more models).

I'll probably end up fielding a Black Templar army anyway, I just wanted to see how viable an IG army I could field with the stuff I had on hand.

@JohnHwangDD:
The tanks part is answered above. My vets always have been and always will be my suicide 3xPlasma squads, designed to kill 2+ saves and MCs, or light vehicles in a pinch.

@Don Mondo:
The Grenadiers would primarily act as a last line of defense, pelting enemy units with AP2 plasma fire as they approached my line. Their primary function would be to target anything that my Battlecannons couldn't reliably kill (i.e., 2+ armor saves and high-toughness creatures).

Anyway, thanks for the input. I think I'm going to be fielding a Templar list, given the difficulty it would be for me to assemble my Guard as an effective army right now.

CK

John's correct - the Carapace is a complete waste.

240 points buys you another 40 men before upgrades. 40 men in cover will last longer than the pitiful amount you have currently.

And Grenadiers aren't much use either. Storm Troopers are better. Even Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are better.

7 DS'ing Guard units isn't going to give anyone headaches. Most of them will be dead after your first shooting phase.

BYE

And I just realised, it's 37 DS'ing models! Scratch what I said. They'll all be dead by the end of their first shooting phase.

If you want to do Dropping Carapace Guard properly, you have to go all in - nothing on the table if you can help it. We're taking two large platoons + HQ units, and probably more if you're not bringing tanks. Through 100-140 men at them, all with Carapace, Deep Striking.

That's something to sneeze at.

BYE

Yeah, my comments are along the same lines as HBMC's. I can see your logic for the 3x Plasma HVet squads (although you might consider making one of them a 3x Melta HVet squad). But, that being said, if you're going Deep Strike, you need a whole lot more DSing.

While Deep Strike looks like a fun, effective doctrine, it's really only effective if you use it to the fullest extent, otherwise if you're piecemealing, it won't stand up to any pressure.

Grenadiers and Carapace are also doctrines that will burn your points without giving you much return. If you want to run a Stormtrooper Squad, take Inq Stormtroopers, but that cuts your number of HVets squads.

And while I hear some people talk about the glories of Close Order Drill, there are just way too many pieplates available to too many armies these days to make it worthwhile, but YMMV.

If you want a characterful, lower-count Guard army, I'd recommend going cameleoline/light infantry and stick to cover, I think you'll find it to be tougher than spending the points on heavier armor.

as said before drop the carapace, and the grenadiers.

also get ride of those lascannons. use missile launchers instead, they have always been far more effective for myself. also those fire support squads are a waste. fire support should not use autocannons as they neither have the AP for heavy infantry or number of shots to be good at mowing down the enemy infantry. take heavy bolters if you must use the squads, but overall just simply drop them. take some extra squads of guardsmen with heavy bolters so that you can split fire, and have way more guns to boast.

and as everyone else has been saying take more tanks. those are really the IG's anti tank or anti infantry. one demolisher, and two leman russ' plus another hellhound does some amazing things, especially against things like nids

SWS aren't very scary.

AC units without sharpshooters, also not scary.

Grenadiers are humorous. Carapace armor is too.

For all you have listed, you really put very few shots across the board.

Where are the 20 heavy weapons? Is this a IG army or what? Why don't you try again. Feel free to PM me for help.

That's a negative, Stelek. It didn't help that I am missing half my army (I'm saying this for the second time now, since no one seemed to notice or care the first time around), but it looks like my Templars are going to be the better deal for me.

Guard aren't my glory list, by any means. Then again, I'd rather build something adequate that doesn't fit into a heavy-weapons fiesta or super deeps striking cookie cutter.

CK

Well, if you have guards in carapace armor you can run them as last chancers and get alot of special/heavy weapons that way.

This is true.

If I weren't broke I'd definitely consider it as a viable option.

CK

If what wasn't broke?

Last Chancers? lol

Bastirous666 wrote:also get ride of those lascannons. use missile launchers instead

Your MathHammer Fu is weak Bastirous.

Autocannons have the same cost as Missile Launchers yet are more effective against AV10, AV11 and AV12. They're equal to ML's against AV13. They can't scratch AV14, obviously, but Lascannons are better than MLs against AV14.

Missile Launchers have no place in a Guard army.

BYE

H.B.M.C. you don't know what your saying then. all you have to say is "blah blah your ideas suck!" back it up with something other than i am right you are wrong, it's boring to read.

honestly do autocannons mow down space marines? no, not even when toted by BS4 models, and most people play at least one marine army (chaos or imperial), it's GW's money maker. the S7 is overkill, you only need S6 for the anti marine purpose. unfortunately that don't exist. so instead there is the trusty heavy bolter. for guard more shots is everything. yes you could take an autocannon for the missile launcher, but then you've got nothing against AV 14. for the same price as one lascannon i could almost get two missile launchers. once again more shots makes the day for guard.

i just feel like everybody is worried about the big bad boogieman all termie army, then take some plasmanguns here and there, sprinkle them about your line, and that problem is solved. meltaguns do nicely too. at guard BS one sho is not enough. at total of 6 shots per game fromand only half hit, then three will wound marines, or maybe one gets a pen, and another a glance, then only one may do serious gdamage to a tank. for the same points you could almost have 12 shot, kill 5 marines, or do some light damage to some tanks (got lazy on computing averages) so i see it as a trade off in the missile launchers favor...but that's just me.

i do like lascannons, just not on guardsmen. also my guard are using projectile weapons as much as possible (i still use meltaguns, and plasmaguns), none of this laser silliness. so i am just a little biased towards not using the lascannon

Bastirous666 wrote:H.B.M.C. you don't know what your saying then. all you have to say is "blah blah your ideas suck!" back it up with something other than i am right you are wrong, it's boring to read.

Que?

You wanna re-read what I said there buddy. I can post the math if you really want me to.

Bastirous666 wrote:honestly do autocannons mow down space marines?

No. That's what Battlecannons are for. R72" S8 AP3 Large Blast. Ain't a better MEQ weapon in the game. Failing that, massed Plasma Gun fire.

Bastirous666 wrote:yes you could take an autocannon for the missile launcher, but then you've got nothing against AV 14.

I said that already. That's why you bring Lascannons and Autocannons to deal with vehicles. All of them are better than ML's. All the time. No matter what.

Bastirous666 wrote:i just feel like everybody is worried about the big bad boogieman all termie army

I didn't mention the All Termy Army. You need Lascannons to deal with AV13 and AV14, plus TMCs. Plasmas deal with TMCs and Sv2+ types. Autocannons deal with AV10, 11 and 12 and anything that isn't a Marine. Heavy Bolter and Multi-Lasers deal with hordes. Metlaguns deal with things like Land Raiders that must die. Battlecannons kill Marines.

You don't need anything else except for the odd Flamer or Rough Rider Hunting Lance.

BYE

battle cannon kill tanks just fine as far as im concerned. they kill marines too, making them versatil, which lascannons are not. single purposed things taken em masse always get left behind by those that can do multiple tasks with just as much strength

Bastirous, please tell me you've never shot at a tank with your battlecannons while there have been other targets about.

The scattering on a Battlecannon makes them highly inaccurate against all vehicular targets sans the Monolith. Even with the 2d6 pick the highest Armor Penetration, they are still worthless by comparison to a Lascannon, whose sole purpose is to kill tanks. Battlecannons are not multi-role when there are non-MC, non-vehicular models on the board. Those die before vehicles, while die before MCs. That is the order in which Battlecannons must choose their targets.

CK

sure if i have another juicy target, such as a unit of marines/necrons, or a clump of guard/nids/orks then i fire at that first, but those die quickly to two leman russ' and a demolisher and if the enemy deploys correctly you can run out of targets mighty quickly. once those are gone, then what? rimble about looking for peeps to pop? no! you go and you plug that annoying enemy tank.

anyway i have luck on my side it seems (rollin hits all day) so i don't mind much. anyway i ahve two hellhounds to back up the russ' so don't much mind using them big'uns to crush a tank or two for one or two turns of the game.

Bastirous666 wrote:battle cannon kill tanks just fine as far as im concerned.

What's better at killing AV14? A Missile Launcher or a Battlecannon?

Answer?

A Lascannon!

Yes you can fire BC's at tanks, but that's not what they're for. This applies to Guard armies, especially MechInf armies:

Tanks kill Infantry.
Infantry kill Tanks.

Your squads have Lascannons and kill tanks. Your Tanks have BCs and Inferno Cannons etc. and they kill infantry.

BYE

I don't know how you don't know the general rules for guard that HBMC, myself, and others keep posting...but maybe you could read around and see for yourself that we aren't just blowing smoke. lol

True dat. 90% of seasoned IG players know this stuff.

Capt K

it seems all guard armies are played "effectively" one or two ways. why play them then? my guard do fine, and i have no lascannons to speak of. i used to use three or four in my old list, but now i use twice as many missile launchers. i just don't see the point difference as worth it. 5 points maybe, but not 10pts, no way no how. also for modeling purposes my guys can do close order drill much easier, and look nifty ranked up in even lines, none of the huge base hulabaloo. missile launchers may have a slightly harder time dealing with Av 14 but when i play against a marine player, or necron player with something like a monolith or a land raider i just ignore it. then i mow down everything else, and make the necrons phase out, or the marines just break down, with little or no guys left. in fact most armies don't even have AV 14 vehicles come to think of it, and they are a big point sink. land raiders hardly ever make their points back in a game unless someone starts pouring fire into them and failing to kill it (fire magnet) so by not building the whole list around killing AV 14 i have more shots to deal with DE raider fleets, and any other army that uses tonns or lighter vehicles.

i just don't get why not having the two or three lascannons is such a big deal, and yes they are totally wasted on leman russ' just because more often than not they will not be fired during a game. if guard depend wholly on the lascannons then i'd have to say they are the worst army available because when you depend on just one thing you die when that is gone...am i right? or are you guys just gonna say "your stupid Bastirous666 and obviously don't know what your talking about, blah blah blah!"

@Corpsman_of_Krieg

You mentioned not having the appropriate amount of models
and your avatar says you live in Greenvile, if your Greenville is Greenville, VA I can help you out with guard models just PM me either way so I dont spend the next three days looking for the post to see if you could use them.

So you have a 5 point difference in lascannons vs missile launchers. Missile launchers cost 15 points. So I don't know how you get twice as many missile launchers....but take ABV offer up and get some lascannons.

Lascannons are needed against AV14 vehicles, that's why you need them.

If you roll 4,6,6 with your missile launchers constantly, good for you! Few other people do so.

Personally I field a balance between the two of them usually 6 Las and 3 rockets but thats just me. Just fyi on a 4,6,6 only 1 in 72 people are that lucky.