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This has come up in another post and I wanted to get a community's standpoint on it.
I'm certain I am correct but others need to some convincing.

"The following is a simple way to understand how the webway portal is used:
When the webway portal is in position, it acts as a gate through which your reserves can enter the table. Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally. The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.
Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.
The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

Taken from DE FAQ

The section that is up for discussion is, What happens if it is surrounded?
Can a skimmer still be used to fly over the enemy troops that are surrounding the portal?

It is my interpretation by RAW and RAI that if the portal is surrounded, regardless of TYPE, no model can exit the webway portal per what is written above.

For other parts of this discussion please click here

It seems to me that since the normal rules for skimmers are that they can fly over enemy units, and the normal rules apply, it means they can fly over the surrounding units so long as they do not end within 1" of them.

Then again, do they have to be on the table before they move? It doesn't seem so, since 40k doesn't have a "deployment" phase during the turn. Rather, it seems that units coming on as reserves hit the table moving, and as such skimmers would ignore enemy units.

I might be wrong about that part though, and if reserve units are placed on the table before movement begins I would change my vote. I don't think the rules say they do though.

Like Wher notes, Raiders are skimmers, therefore can use the portal - the rule you list is simply not applicable there. So yes, the WWP is fully usable by all troops in a raider, which is of course its primary purpose.

Naturally also, it is not usable by troops that walk.

B)

My sentiment isn't that skimmers can not fly over troops. I would hope by now we all know that they can. B)
But that should a player be able to surround the portal, let's say with kroot for example, then because the opponent has met the criteria for surrounding the Portal, the DE player can't use it to enter the table.


The wargear FAQ states that:
"This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play. <snip>The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

This to me means that the intent is to always have it defended.

The problem here is that the rule itself is plainly making a false claim. From "[t]he normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply," it does not necessarily follow that "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play." The question is, how then do we take the false claim? Do we ignore the "This means that" and take it that surrounding = no entry by fiat, or do we ignore "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play" and instead use the logical consequences of normal movement rules applying? I see no way to resolve this by RAW. You have to house rule it one way or the other.

Personally, I'd allow skimmers to move as per normal. It would be unnecessarily draconian to DE players otherwise.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:The problem here is that the rule itself is plainly making a false claim. From "[t]he normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply," it does not necessarily follow that "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play." The question is, how then do we take the false claim? Do we ignore the "This means that" and take it that surrounding = no entry by fiat, or do we ignore "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play" and instead use the logical consequences of normal movement rules applying? I see no way to resolve this by RAW. You have to house rule it one way or the other.

Personally, I'd allow skimmers to move as per normal. It would be unnecessarily draconian to DE players otherwise.

Okay, everyone.
Into your basements. Armageddon is here. The world will end in T-60 minutes.

I just agreed, 100% with something t-C said.

Maybe that's why my head hurts.

LOL

Seriously, though, it does seem as if GW -big surprise here- screwed up the wording on this one and presumed we'd "understand" what they meant.

Eric

Ordinarily I'd be a member of the tegeus-Cronis camp, as the rules seem to allow flying over it. In this case the faq is so explicit that I've got to go with it. There's no way to be confused by what the author of that FAQ (GW's proxy in this instance) think about this situation. He's wrong on RAW, but he's got the authority. I vote no on based on the FAQ.

How can you argue with such an absolute. "you cannot use it". No qualifier, no distinctions or anything - a simply straight forward "you cannot use it".

It doesn't say "models may not use" - then I could see the argument for skimmers being allowed.

This is based on the quote being accurate of-course.

Since this sprang from a discussion paidinfull and I (and Stelek) were having, here is why I voted yes: "Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally." Its the sentence right before the bold. Normal rules allow me to move right over enemy troops on my table edge.

BTW paidinfull, the poll is flawed. It should read: "If a webway portal is surrounded can it be used by Skimmers?"

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I changed the question of the poll to make it more clear.


I voted yes, skimmers can indeed use the portal even when it is surrounded.

The reasoning is (fairly) simple: The FAQ sates that the portal may not be used if it is surrounded, but there is context for this statement in the previous sentence: because models cannot come within 1" of enemy models.

You cannot remove this context from the ruling, otherwise you end up with a situation where the enemy forms a big giant ring around the webway portal several inches away from it, but the opposing player then claims "hey, I'm *surrounding* the webway portal so you can't use it!"


The fact remains, the ruling is given because of the 1" rule Since Skimmers are allowed to move over enemy models they may absolutely ignore the models surrounding the webway portal and move onto the table.

Yak, can you change my other poll question and give it both meaning and clarity?

'What is the meaning of life?'

Yak,
I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree with that as you are inferring that the intent is only to troops. By the same rational i can create an argument that says that the intent isn't dependent on the Unit type.

"The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

This to me, at least, says don't let it EVER get surrounded.

That by itself to me cements the RAI that it can NOT be used by skimmers or anything else, it doesn't matter if a skimmer can normally fly over something this isn't a normal circumstance and the fact that it is a skimmer has nothing to do with the Rule As Written.

Thank you for updating the poll but again I don't think it is necessary to distinguish the Unit Type as again... that isn't mentioned in the rules as written.

But that is the only thing we are arguing about. We aren't arguing if warriors can enter play. The question is whether or not Skimmers can, that is where the disagreement is. Therefore, the poll is only meaningful if it is about what we disagree about.

And you are arguing intent. We don't know the intent. To me, the intent is that for models walking on they can't enter. You are taking one sentence in isolation and applying it universally. You really can't do that, in the rules or in a FAQ.

Again, I can fly right over you in a skimmer if you are on my table edge and a WWP is an extension of my table edge.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

paidinfull wrote:Yak,
I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree with that as you are inferring that the intent is only to troops. By the same rational i can create an argument that says that the intent isn't dependent on the Unit type.

I didn't say that the ruling was referring only to infantry.

I said there is context provided in the ruling as to why it is made. Note the sentence with the ruling says:

"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault. This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play."


The 1" rule is the reason why the ruling is made. It isn't the fact that the portal is surrounded its that normal models would be unable to enter play without coming within 1" of the enemy.

If you disagree with my assesment and take the ruling out of context I'll say it again:

If I "surround" the webway portal with a giant ring of models, but none of my models are within 10" of the webway portal, can DE models still emerge from the portal? The portal is definitely "surrounded" so no, right?


This is incorrect because when taken in context the ruling does not say that surrounding the portal is what causes it to be unusable, but rather the fact that surrounding a portal (within an inch of it) will prevent models from entering play because of the 1" rule.

Skimmers are able to ignore the 1" rule by moving over enemy models, so therefore they are not prohibited from entering play regardless of how close the enemy is to the WWP.

Ozy
I'm actually trying to prove both RAI and RAW that regardless of unit type if the portal is surrounded that it can't be used.

Also the WWP is not your table edge if it was I would hope they would just say... the WWP is an extension of your table edge.

This is where you and I differ, I still feel that it is a piece of wargear with abilities and limitations. One of the limitations that I see from RAW and what I take as RAI is that it can not be used if surrounded.

Yak
I hear ya, but from what you've said(making a huge circle) I think that is a stretch as well, as the model could exit the WWP within the 10"(your number).

What about the last sentence? That doesn't give you any pause in towards my point?

No DE skimmer is 1" thin. Even Jetbikes are too thick sideways.

Now, both can 'go fast' but if you extend Yaks analogy to 22"...maybe you'll understand.

paidinfull wrote:Ozy

Also the WWP is not your table edge if it was I would hope they would just say... the WWP is an extension of your table edge.

You mean this sentence: "Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge."?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

paidinfull wrote:Yak
I hear ya, but from what you've said(making a huge circle) I think that is a stretch as well, as the model could exit the WWP within the 10"(your number).

What about the last sentence? That doesn't give you any pause in towards my point?

A giant circle is a stretch? Why?

If you want to claim that "surrounding" the portal is what causes it to no longer be used, then "surrounding" it by a rough circle of any size would suffice to meet that criteria. You can't have it both ways at the same time.


As for the last sentence of the FAQ ruling, it certainly stands as a warning to players. Any non-skimmer unit in the webway portal is going to effectively be destroyed if the enemy surrounds the WWP within 1" of it.

Not to toss a wrench into the works, but...

It's not like Warriors entering play via a monolith being destroyed if they can't come in immediately, right?

It was my understanding you can try to enter play at a later date, thus be 'saved' from death at the end of the game.

I believe that you can fly a Raider out of a WWP, even if it is surrounded.

But I think it'd be a funny tactic... Have your WWP set down, then leave it. Remind your enemy that very nasty things will be coming out of it. And then hint that if he surrounds it, nothing can come out. Then, if he's dumb enough, he'll do just that. Then you blast him with your troops already in the game.

Wouldn't it be a Tank-shock as soon as it deployed though??????? Tested against the units that are surrounding the WW?

Wouldn't the skimmer need to move away from the portal, thus running 'over' enemy units?

I am a SM player who plays against DE, so whilst I do not know the rules for DE, I would like to know for 'gaming' purposes.

Only if you have given the raider a trophy rack can it tank shock, it isn't naturally a tank.

I have some in my army, simply so I can tank shock dumbasses who stack non-fearless troops up in front of the WWP. Broken troops are troops I can ignore safely.

You do need to move away from the portal, but you don't overrun them you just fly over them.

You mean Torture Amp, Stelek?

Trophy Racks doesn't allow you to tank shock.

Oops right. I knew it began with a T. And was two words.

Half credit?

Haha, sure. You're a better DE player than I, so I'll let you slide this time

Yak,
The example you described is a stretch as the 1" used in the FAQ stipulates that you are within at least 1" of the WWP.

Can a skimmer move within 1" of an enemy model?
Can a skimmer end its move over another model(not terrain)?

I still think you are also ignoring the fact that in GW's recent rulings they have always leaned towards RAW and it is clearly written "if it's surrounded it can't be used", not by skimmers, not by infantry, not by anything.

In response to moving on from the table edge, not webway portal related, in game terms there is nothing not on the table as the game system is relative. You could not "begin" your movement off of the table, meaning the model would have to be placed on the table, if by only a fraction, in order for you to measure from the edge of the table. Think of the table edge as 0".

The model has to be placed on the table prior to you being able to define it as having moved, as if you don't... the model, in game terms, hasn't moved, it's been placed an arbitrary distance relative to what...? It's starting point on... the table.

How else do you define the distance a model has "moved" if not by it's starting point in the only terms the game system works... on the table.

Ozy,
That being said, no I don't think you can fly over enemy troops even at your regular deployment/table edge. It's a stupid thing to accomplish and stupid for someone to do. Note they would have to be within 1" of your edge or right up on it.

Who said you place the model on the table then move it, paid?

All of the missions say:

'The defenders/attackers reserves move on from his table edge.'

How is it you're arguing this point all day, but don't know this?

paidinfull:

Can a skimmer move within 1" of an enemy model?

Yes, of course they can.

@TC
No they can't, no model can move within 1" of an enemy model this is in the BGB. I double checked this last night. Reading the skimmer rules it only says "they may always move over enemy troops" it says nothing about ignoring this basic blanket rule. It also clarifies that you can not end movement over a model. I even went and double checked the tank shock rules as i thought you moved into base contact with it for an assault(tank shock) but it is referenced that you can't be within 1" of an enemy model even in that rule. I continued to check everywhere in the BGB and I can't find anywhere that supports that a skimmer can begin it's movement within 1" of an enemy model.

What you guys are missing is that there has to be a point on the table, be it the edge or not, that the model has to be before it can "move". A point of origin am I right? The model has to have a starting point so you can define the distance it's traveled or going to travel. We know this is the case as the SMF rule talks about not claiming you moved around and then back to the original spot saying "well I've moved 12" in a circle around these trees and ended right back where i started."

The model, in this case a skimmer that wishes to exit the WWP, has a starting point that is within 1" of an enemy at which time it is neither flying/hovering etc.(all of which are purely decorative and not applicable in game terms) nor is it moving, it is about to or "going to" move. You can't claim that you've started moving from off of the table as that "doesn't exist" in game terms and is also noted in the DE FAQ.

@stelek
so where is the model starting? i thought the edge of a table is part of the table? if I place a model 0.5" wouldn't that point(the table edge) be within 1" of an enemy model? How can you start from somewhere if you weren't there to begin with?

Would you say that you could place a skimmer 1" onto the table and claim that it moved 5"+ while off of the table so that you could get SMF?