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My take on it. You use the small blast template (or similar sized creation, as your WWP. If you measure it, the template is 1.5" in diameter. Even claiming the 1" rule a Raider would come out of the WWP .5" away from enemy troops. Think more than 2 dimensional here as Raiders exit the warp, they appear out of thin air.

Or another way to look at it. Nothing states the height of a WWP. So if I model mine to be 4" above the table, the Raider would be more than 1" away from most enemy troops as standard minis aren't that tall.

Actually Paid, here is the answer to your dilemma:
1:Models do not exist in game until the instant they enter the table.
2: Models in reserve enter either by A: Deepstriking, or B: Moving on as Reserves from a table edge.
3: If a Raider comes on, it can't be deep striking since it doesn't have that ability. So it is moving.
4: Since it can not exist in game until it moves, it must be able to move over troops, since skimmers are allowed to move over enemy troops.

Consider this consequence of disagreeing with statement 1 before you respond: if you say models exist when off table, one either has to define where they exist off table and where they do not, or one can not move ANY model to be within 1" of the table edge.
In other words, in the first case you are extending the table edge out an arbitrary number of inches and deploying your units in reserve behind the "line" of the normal table. In game units may not move to that point, but reserve units can. Thus you define where they are and where they are not.
In the second case, in the absence of defining where the units are not, you imply they must be everywhere, making the 1" at the table edges unusable by anyone, since you can not assault units that are not on the table.

However, even if it is the case that they exist off table, it still allows for skimmers to fly on, since they would be moving. Presumably less 1" than otherwise, since they had to be >1" away from models at the table edge, but they could come on just fine. Likewise, tanks could tank shock, or infantry could assault (or shoot!) since they "exist in game" off the table.

So yet again we come to that whether the skimmer exists off table or not, it still can come on by flying over other units. Which is handy, because figuring out where the skimmer is in the extra dimensional space that is both off the table and in the webway would be a real bear. And not the drinking kind of bear, mind you.
Essentially, the question becomes not "can skimmers enter from a table edge that is lined with enemy troops" but "can tanks tank shock as they come onto the board from reserves?"

Funny thing is, the list in question--I have tank shocking raiders and non-tank shocking raiders.

I've run over some units with the snares and tank shocked others, all from the board edge.

Never had a complaint and I've been doing it since the DE got vehicle wargear years ago.

@Wehr
1. I totally agree this is what I've been trying to communicate. It is at that instant that they are on the table they are within 1" of an enemy model and are not allowed into play.

2. Exactly, in order to be moving in game terms they are using a defined point, the table edge, as a starting point before it begins "moving", as it didn't exist before, which is 1" away from an enemy model.

3. I'm not sure how this works as I thought DE had wargear/vehicle upgrade that allows the raider to deepstrike... so I don't see how limiting them only to "entering game play by moving" enables them to "exist" legally in game terms.

4. Can a skimmer that moves over troops end its movement within 1" of an enemy model?

Stelek
It is my opinion, that the majority of people misplay the DE, predominantly because its a 2nd edition codex and it was written before the Necronomicon.
B)

Well, if you think that a Raider cannot move over people as it is entering the table, I can see why you would have the opinion that most people misplay DE.

I'm saying that the raider isn't moving at the instant that it is in play

How can it start a process, in "game terms", before it was ever a part of the "game"?

What happens if you deepstrike within 1" of an enemy model?

What happens if you are forced to exit a vehicle within 1" of an enemy model?

(rhetorical)

What does deep strike (red herring) have to do with this issue?

If I run DE and I deep strike with the tank shock wargear, I make you move, otherwise I die. Is the table edge where I put my vehicle down??

What does disembarking (red herring) have to do with this issue?

Are vehicles your table edge in some way? No.

@Stelek
The two rhetorical questions were intent to show that the only time a model can come within 1" of an enemy model is during an assault.

That is the only time.

Aside:
How are you combining deepstrike and tank shock? They are two different types of movement and the tank shock rules are pretty specific.

Also,
what did you mean by "are vehicles your table edge in some way?"
I honestly don't know what you meant

The rules for Deepstrike and Disembark have no bearing on the rules we are discussing. Trying to say they do is, as Stelek pointed out, a red herring.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Tank shock says I start it in my movement phase.

Dark Eldar can both deep strike (screaming jets) and tank shock (torture amp).

So you 'start your movement phase' by 'nominating a direction' (umm...down?) and move your vehicle via deep strike. Assuming you don't scatter into a vehicle or impassable terrain (which destroys you), you can deep strike and tank shock a unit out of the way.

Paid: You completely missed my point.

The point was that the unit does not exist until the instant it MOVES onto the battle field. As the skimmer is MOVING when it enters the battle field, and skimmers may MOVE over enemy units as though they were not there as long as they do not end their move within 1", they can MOVE onto the battle field whether there are enemy troops lined up at the edge or not.

My point about Deep Strike was that the rule did not apply, even though it is an option for coming in from reserves. Maybe they can deep strike, I don't know.

So, in summation, when something enters the table edge from reserves, there is NEVER an instant where it is not moving until it ends it's movement. From the instant it comes on the board up to and until the moment it is done moving, it is moving. It is not placed on the board, then moved. It is simply moved. It does not exist as an unmoved model until it is finished with its movement.

I am running out of paraphrases, and have developed a disliking for the word "move".

I do not see why anyone should bother giving paidinfull the time of day until he can actually point to a rule that states that a model may not "exist"/"be" within 1" of an enemy. You guys are making sensible counterarguments, but they are unnecessary, in that paid's argument falls apart without your help.

Touche, t-C, touche.

I want to make it clear so that everyone is aware that my personal stance on playing a game is just that… you are playing a game and it is meant to be fun and enjoyed by both parties. Regardless of whether the game is for fun or for a tournament if you and your friend/opponent agree, what the rule says, then neither the BGB nor anyone else’s opinion matters.

I’ve continued this discussion because I honestly believe that the intent and written word of the FAQ, the BGB, and the DE codex is that if the portal is surrounded so that enemy models come within 1” of an opposing player’s model(s) then it cannot be used. We are at a point where, as others have pointed out, I am unable to provide a convincing argument as to my interpretation and conversely I am not convinced that I am in the wrong. I have taken some time to try and outline my point one final time and if I am unable to convince you that my opinion is valid and that I am indeed correct, then we are truly at an impasse. I respect other’s opinions and the right to play the game however they want in a fun and what they deem fair manner and I would hope that my opinion and perspective can be appreciated with the same level of respect. Again, if I am unable to convince you I am at a loss and am not going to continue posting on this matter.

First and foremost the point of this discussion was to determine whether or not a web way portal could be used as a means of entry onto the table if it was surrounded. Before I address this I have made claims that I have witnessed Dark Eldar playing rules incorrectly. This is only a half truth as obviously we all make mistakes from time to time but I have consistently seen 2 aspects of the Dark Eldar Codex/Army played incorrectly and I felt I should make these discrepancies clear. These 2 instances are:

- Continuing to use the web way portal after it has been surrounded by an opposing player.
- Rolling for reserves and keeping those reserves in non-alpha level missions or in games where reserves are normally allowed. They would keep the units they successfully rolled in reserve until the portal was opened even though the BGB and the codex stated otherwise when in fact they would have to move onto the table from their board edge.

I have seen these two instances played this way in tournaments and in friendly games, and I have also agreed with players to allow them to be played this way. It’s important to play fair and have fun and even in games that I have lost it has been fun. Even going by the poll it is clear that others, while not everyone, don’t feel that a web way portal can be used if surrounded. While this topic is about the web way portal and it being used if it is surrounded, I would like to explain the second issue first, though unrelated, as I already have something written up that clarifies my opinion and hopefully shows that I am aware of the rules and what I am talking about.

This section uses quotes taken directly from the Dark Eldar codex.

Codex quote:

"If you have a web way portal in your army you may keep units in reserve, even if you are not normally allowed to do so in the mission being played.

This sentence only allows you to keep units in reserve if reserves are not normally permitted. That is all it says. It doesn't say you can hold units in reserve and when they become available you can continue to hold them in reserve.

Codex quote:
"If you do this then the troops may only enter through the web way, and if it has not been opened on the turn they become available to enter play, they must be held back until it is."

This sentence says "if you do this" meaning "you held units in reserve and are not normally allowed to have reserves" then they must enter play via the web way portal.

Like I said before, this verbiage has been a point of contention for awhile but it most certainly does not do what you suggest. Remember that rules are permissive. They allow you certainly abilities.

FAQ quote:
"The following is a simple way to understand how the web way portal is used:
When the web way portal is in position, it acts as a gate through which your reserves can enter the table. Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally. The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.
Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.
The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

As you can see from the FAQ and the codex the webway portal does this:
1. Allows you to keep units in reserve if you normally can't ie Gamma
2. Acts like an extension of your table edge

You are welcome to ask the rules lawyers or GW, hell you can easily use it the way you are wanting as the game is intended to be fun, but as I said, I am 100% Positive that what I am telling you is RAW and RAI.

pg 84-85 explains how reserves work. In this section they also note that reserves function according to the mission and how to roll for them. I find it interesting that only the BGB and not RTT or GT missions describe how your reserves move/are placed/come onto the table, at least not the ones that I have saved.

"When a unit arrives, it must move on as specified in the Reserves section of the mission description."
"Note: You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!"

In any mission where reserves are normally available you cannot ignore the BGB as the codex nor does the FAQ say anything about that. In normal games (to me at least, Gamma/Omega) the best thing the portal does is allow some of your units a turn to move forward and/or ensures your next reserves are able to get into the thick of it sooner.

Even if you deploy a unit at the edge of your deployment zone, and open the portal(s) turn 1, you have added 15" usually, that is still pretty significant. Factor in a skimmer that can move 12", allow a disembark of 2", a unit that can fleet 6", and maybe charge 12" you have a unit that can charge 47" I think that’s pretty awesome. I was using a wych squad in a raider with the 12" drug roll for my example by the way.
I hope that we can agree that the web way portal does not indeed allow the Dark Eldar player the ability to create a “bottleneck” as I feel I have sufficiently outlined and provided facts that they cannot indeed hold units in reserve when they are available in a game that permits Reserves. Done?
Now to the heart of what we have been discussing. Can a Dark Eldar player continue to use the web way portal even after it has been surrounded?

FAQ quote:
Think of the edge of the portal marker as a piece of your own table edge. Models move onto the table from the portal marker, measuring from its edge as they would if they entered the table normally.

Ok it is very clear that the portal is essentially a piece of your own board edge. This is all this sentence says and we can now enter play as we would from a normal board edge. Pretty straight forward right?

FAQ quote:
The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.

The connotation of first part of this sentence is clear that there is a rule for proximity. “The normal rules for proximity apply…” which is: “that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.” Now a proximity “rule” may be something from 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition, but it is definitely conveyed through a slew of other rules that players must keep 1” away from opposing models. To further justify this claim, as you can see it is not saying “move” within 1” of an enemy it is not saying “placed” within in 1”, it is saying you cannot come, or “be/exist” in my words, within 1” of an enemy model, which encompasses placed, moved, started, is just plain there. This sentence is also further clarification of how the web way portal is not an exception to any rules in the BGB regarding movement and proximity. I have posted references to the main BGB FAQ, tank shock, movement, deep strike, and disembarking from a destroyed vehicle to compound even further that it is a rule, and understood, that you cannot ever, except during an assault, be within 1” of an enemy model. Skimmers are no exception to this rule. They have a different rule that allows them to “always choose to move over enemy models”. In the BGB under skimmers, it does not say that they may come within 1” of an enemy model, it simply grants them an added ability to facilitate their act of movement. If this was the case, that a skimmer can indeed, come within 1” of an enemy model, that enemy model/unit would NOT be able to move in its following turn. The skimmer would then not be able to move away as it has come within 1” of an enemy model. This is supported, granted in respects to a different subject that being HTH with a vehicle but it still conveys the precedence set of the proximity rule(coming within 1” of an enemy model), by the BGB FAQ:
The question is:
Can a non-ws vehicle move away from [a] unit it was engaged with in the previous turn for the purpose of not going within 1” of an enemy in the Movement phase (as it is already in base contact with the unit)

The response was: [It is not locked nor engaged] but it continues on to support the proximity rule as the unit are not in an assault with the vehicle anymore and therefore cannot come within 1” of an enemy model.

NOTE: If both players agree, the best way to represent this is to move such models slightly away from the vehicle at the end of their assault (ideally 1”!),

It makes a specific reference to 1” which is a reference back to the proximity rule. The units aren’t in an assault anymore so they can’t/shouldn’t be within 1” of each other as that conflicts with multiple other rules.

much like a consolidation move. This will also allow the vehicle to move away more neatly during its Movement phase.

Just finishing up the quote so that we can see this is to remain consistent with the rest of the rules and make the game easier to play. We go back to the Dark Eldar FAQ…

FAQ quote:
This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play.

Now we come to this sentence which is so finite and so blanketing in how it is written. It is the rule. “This means that if the [enemy models are positioned/placed surrounding the web way portal so that the opposing player cannot come within 1” of an enemy model per the normal proximity rule] [then] [the Dark Eldar player] cannot be use [the portal] to enter play.” When I began this discussion this was my main point. It makes no difference what so ever that the models in question are skimmers, tanks, infantry, jump infantry, etc. in the Dark Eldar player’s reserves the portal simply cannot be used. As you can see, the fact that we have been debating the fact that a skimmer can use it is immaterial and is of no consequence to this discussion.
Yes, skimmers can fly over enemy troops.
No, they cannot break the proximity rule of coming within 1” of an enemy model, which I have supported with multiple other rules that I’m sure you don’t need me to quote.
Yes, the portal is surrounded so that an enemy model cannot come/be/exist/move within 1” of an enemy model.
No, the portal cannot be used to enter play.

What this means in tournament/competitive play is very little. So you can’t use the portal to enter play… does that mean you auto lose? No, of course not, you can still move on from your board edge, you are just not able to use the web way portal wargear.

FAQ quote:
Units may not partially enter play using the portal nor may they charge through it.

This sentence further supports that it cannot be used at all (period). This is because the charge happens in an entirely different phase, the assault phase, and while they cannot move or come onto the table they are prohibited entirely from using the web way portal if it is indeed surrounded as I have outlined previously. This is the same thing with tank shocking out of the portal, it cannot be used so it makes no difference that you have bought wargear that allows you to tank shock. The wargear is rendered useless by the act of being surrounded.

FAQ quote:

The moral of the tale is that you should defend the portal until you have used it and not simply abandon it in the middle of the enemy."

What else needs to be said? Don’t let it get surrounded! If it is surrounded you can’t use the web way portal and you are S.O.L. if the game does not allow reserves(Alpha, special missions) as only the portal allowed them to be held in reserves to begin with, which… it now cannot be used. I do not know what else to say to make it clear that there is indeed a proximity rule and it is supported in other instances and that the FAQ clearly states it cannot be used at all by anything if it is surrounded in this way.

Lastly we have gone onto a bit of a tangent regarding the deployment board edge and “moving on from the board edge” and skimmers flying over models lined up along the edge. This is in my opinion, the DUMBEST, most asinine thing your friend/opponent can try to do to you. The only clear way I can see this being achieved is:
-He infiltrated a ton of models all along your board edge and has in fact wasted your time and his own to show you this absolutely condescending method of winning a game. At which point you should feel free to reach across the table and smack the ever living crap out of your opponent.
-The game is escalation and you are entirely mechanized and your opponent is somehow able to cross 36” before you have anything available(a successful reserve roll), plausible most likely with Dark Eldar or Eldar because of 24”+ movement on their vehicles.

While entertaining in theory I can’t imagine this action doing anything than pissing off your opponent, which goes against my cardinal belief of having fun… I mean really? You made me wait 20 minutes to put your crap out so you could just say “I win”?

We have discussed at length how reserves come onto the table and I felt that I best described this situation previously by saying in order to measure the distance moved on the table the vehicle has to be ON the table to begin with, as I don’t see how it can make sense otherwise. I fail to understand the idea that the units are in a state of “perpetual motion” while in reserve especially since we can’t count where they started from in reserve. If they are moving from a point in reserve that is not on the table why can’t we effectively move 1” onto the table and claim SMF rule? I see them as coming into play exactly at the table edge and that, in this case, is within 1” of an enemy unit (board edge) and the moving from the table edge to another point on the table. I logically don’t understand, and I hope this isn’t coming across condescending or insulting, I really just don’t understand (I’m probably just that dumb ), if they are coming on from a point that is not on the table, ie in a reserve area/stasis/whatever, why we are not able to arbitrarily say that point was 6”, or any number for that matter, “deep”. I honestly think that it is dumb for anyone to try win a game in this fashion and don't really see a point to continuing this discussion further on lining up along a table edge.

Hehe
I have even put together a little graphic which I can post if we really need to, so we can discuss further to help me understand better, I’m a graphics guy I need visuals , but I think it is a separate point not related to the web way portal as the web way portal is still a piece of wargear with its own rules and I feel I have clearly conveyed why it cannot be used for skimmers, or any other unit, if it is indeed surrounded.
I would also like to say, that if I have come across as rude, condescending, insulting, a jerk, in ANY way, that was really not my intent. If I have offended anyone on Dakka please accept my humblest apologies, and I want to be clear to stelek, tegeus-Cromis, yakface, ozymandias, wehrkind, boss greennutz, or anyone else for that matter that I respect your opinion and in no way was it my intent to offend anyone. If you took the time to read all of this, thank you, I just wanted to be as clear as I possibly could.
As I have said at the start of my post if you do not now agree with me that the web way portal, indeed, cannot be used at ALL, if it is surrounded, the I respectfully disagree with you and appreciate your right to play the game any way you please.
Cheers
C

Also, I would hate for you to think ill of me as if you check my sportsmanship scores or ask any of my gamer friends or gamers in my community I am fun to play against and am most certinaly not an oppressive rules lawyer or a cheater when we play. However, when we are discussing in a forum environment, as we are, I simply try to make my opinion heard as best I can and am also willing to appreciate when I am in the wrong.

Holy crap you wrote a tactica. lol

I'm not offended in any way, it's ok to disagree on points.

You weren't a jackass about it IMO.

So we disagree. Big deal.

It wouldn't ruin a game, as it'd take a miracle for you to surround my WWP before I could deploy them. Like if I was asleep and you played on without me. That kind of miracle. lol

It is very tough to even achieve surrounding the portal... and if you take 2? Why even bother. As I pointed out, if you agree with me that they can't be used, the majority of the time this hardly effects you... um, you can't move 12" on from your own board edge, disembark 2", fleet 6" and maybe charge 6-12" and get me? that's 26-32" if you dropped it first turn... where am I? within 15".

I'm glad that I didn't offend you.

paidinfull, your continuing a debate and its painfully obvious that your the only one arguing against when you have had several posters who normally disagree with one another agree on this rules issue.

I suggest this thread be locked because its going in circles and I have seen arguments from both sides constantly stated and restated. No new material is coming out of this and its turning into a shouting match.

also lets keep in mind this is codex wording from 3rd edition and even the FAQ is just the beginning of 4th edition so the rules are still pretty much obsolete to the point we are arguing over bad wording.

Except that you continue to ignore Yak's point that the "This means that" is a clarification of the previous sentence. It doesn't apply to skimmers as they can effectively ignore the 1" rule as they move. You are treating a clarification as if it overrides a basic rule and you are wrong. You have failed to convince me and the majority of posters on this thread. How you play with your friends is fine, do whatever you want, but know that what you are saying is not RAW, I don't believe its RAI, and not what the majority of players think.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I just said, If [he] agrees with me

The debate is done as you've pointed out.
I made a statement that if, after you read my post you don't agree than that's fine

You are putting far too much argument into a description that starts with "The following is a simple way to understand how the web way portal is used: "

This line tells us that the following text is an example, an illustration to help the reader understand the RAW that is presented in the codex. It does not change or add to the RAW in the codex, but it does provide cautions against the ramifications of the full rules (surrounded, can't get out). It does not then run through every possible exception to that situation, but it doesn't need to as the RAW hasn't changed.

So for entering a surrounded table edge:
P1 The beginning of the turn takes place during the movement phase
P2 Skimmers may always move over enemy models
P3 Reserves enter the table at the beginning of the turn
C1 Models entering from reserves do so as part of their movement and are subject to their movement rules
C2 Skimmers may enter the table from reserves by moving over enemy models

Edit: and sorry if I'm retreading covered ground here, I did not read the entire thread. :(

Paid, I like how you note the two items that you have seen DE players play incorrectly, which two items are being done correctly by the DE player by the explicit rules in their book. Yes, if you hold models back in reserves to send them through the WWP, those hold back and do not come on until the WWP is in place. You can cite to the main rulebook all you want; just remember that specific rules in the codices supersede the general rules (which the specific WWP rules do). On entering play- the FAQ is entirely correct for footslogging troops- they cannot enter through a WWP that is surrounded. However, again, Skimmers have another rule which makes them the exception. So, on the two points you disagree with DE players on, their rules pretty explicitly say they are right.

I see that other people have voted in favor of Paid's position - I would love to hear from any of those players as to their thoughts.

It's a nice analysis... but it all falls apart here:

paidinfull wrote:

FAQ quote:
The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.

The connotation of first part of this sentence is clear that there is a rule for proximity. “The normal rules for proximity apply…” which is: “that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault.” Now a proximity “rule” may be something from 3rd Edition or 2nd Edition, but it is definitely conveyed through a slew of other rules that players must keep 1” away from opposing models. To further justify this claim, as you can see it is not saying “move” within 1” of an enemy it is not saying “placed” within in 1”, it is saying you cannot come, or “be/exist” in my words, within 1” of an enemy model, which encompasses placed, moved, started, is just plain there.

'Cannot come within' does not mean 'cannot exist within.
'Coming within' is simply another way of saying 'moving within'


You have a fair point so far as skimmers moving over models still not being able to come within 1" of them... but that's as far as it goes.

Yes, the portal is surrounded so that an enemy model cannot come/be/exist/move within 1” of an enemy model.
No, the portal cannot be used to enter play.

You still haven't explained why this stops skimmers from using the portal, since they don't care if the models are surrounding the portal... they can just go over them anyway.

We have discussed at length how reserves come onto the table and I felt that I best described this situation previously by saying in order to measure the distance moved on the table the vehicle has to be ON the table to begin with, as I don’t see how it can make sense otherwise.

What doesn't make sense about measuring from the board edge and then placing the vehicle?

I fail to understand the idea that the units are in a state of “perpetual motion” while in reserve especially since we can’t count where they started from in reserve.

They're in a what now?

If they are moving from a point in reserve that is not on the table why can’t we effectively move 1” onto the table and claim SMF rule?

Because you can't measure distances off the table. If you can't measure more than 1" on the table, the vehicle has not moved more than 1".

Unless you can find a rule that allows distance measured off the table to count for anything.

I logically don’t understand, and I hope this isn’t coming across condescending or insulting, I really just don’t understand (I’m probably just that dumb ), if they are coming on from a point that is not on the table, ie in a reserve area/stasis/whatever, why we are not able to arbitrarily say that point was 6”, or any number for that matter, “deep”.

We're not able to say that because the rules don't say that.

The model moves on from the table edge. Not from a point 6" beyond the table edge.

insaniak
You said
You have a fair point so far as skimmers moving over models still not being able to come within 1" of them... but that's as far as it goes.

If a skimmer is held to this same rule, like all other models in the game, for example a skimmer can't end it's move within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't
"The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault."
still be applicable to the skimmer?

A skimmer moves over a model but not within 1" of an enemy model, at least it is my understanding that the rules right?

If a skimmer is susceptible to that rule, as I've tried to point out before, then surrounding the portal would indeed mean that it can't be used at all.

"This means that, if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play. "

You also so said
You still haven't explained why this stops skimmers from using the portal, since they don't care if the models are surrounding the portal... they can just go over them anyway.

The skimmers might not "care"... but the webway portal does... that's why i was saying earlier that it doesn't matter what type the unit is, it can't be used because the Wargear doesn't permit it's use if it's surrounded.

SO it says in the profile that a portal is impassible terrain. Then how can people come out of it?

The edge of the template is treated as your board edge.

The INTERIOR of the template is the 'impassable' terrain.

paidinfull wrote:If a skimmer is held to this same rule, like all other models in the game, for example a skimmer can't end it's move within 1" of an enemy model, wouldn't "The normal rules regarding enemy in proximity apply, notably that you cannot come within 1" of an enemy model except during an assault." still be applicable to the skimmer?

Of course they would still be applicable.

They simply wouldn't matter, as the rules don't stop the skimmer emerging from the portal from moving over enemy troops as normal.

If a skimmer is susceptible to that rule, as I've tried to point out before, then surrounding the portal would indeed mean that it can't be used at all.

And as has been pointed out right back at you, the skimmer moving from the portal doesn't have to move within 1" of enemy models, any more than a skimmer moving around the board has to do so.

The skimmers might not "care"... but the webway portal does... that's why i was saying earlier that it doesn't matter what type the unit is, it can't be used because the Wargear doesn't permit it's use if it's surrounded.

It can't be used (if surrounded) by models who would have to move within 1" of the surrounding models in order to move from the portal.

The skimmer doesn't need to move within 1" of those models. It simply moves over them.

You're taking a statement out of context, and claiming that it applies arbitrarily to everything. This is simply not supported by the rules as a whole.

Bro,
You are saying that "come" is the same thing as "move"...
If I place a model within 1" of another model have I "come" within 1"? Yes I have. It doesn't matter how they got there that they moved, deep struck, were placed, just appeared " "notably, you can't come within 1" of an enemy model except in an assault" is a rule that is applicable to all models in the game. Whether the skimmer has an ability to move over an enemy model is immaterial and the skimmer is still bound by this rule. We know this because it is presumed that when you are moving over an enemy model with your skimmer that you are abiding by the "normal rules of proximity" and the undefined distance that you are moving "over" the enemy model is in fact greater than 1".

Since this statement is an absolute, meaning it applies to everything, the clarification is ALSO an absolute. No where is it written that "if the portal is surrounded it can't be used, except by skimmers and/or jump infantry"

Those who do not agree with my standpoint are attempting to make an exception from a rule that simply isn't written anywhere.

To go even further than that, this is a Codex FAQ which, as Antonin carefully pointed out, supersedes the BGB. Please tell me where in the FAQ or in the Dark Eldar Codex it says that if the portal is surrounded that it can STILL be used, or that it can still be used by skimmers.

@Antonin,
I missed your previous post in which you said I was incorrect. Could you please find in the codex where it says that you are allowed to keep units in reserve after you have successfully passed a reserve roll in a mission that allows normal reserves?

I am referring to the rule that you quoted from the codex. Let's see that quote:

paidinfull wrote:
This sentence only allows you to keep units in reserve if reserves are not normally permitted. That is all it says. It doesn't say you can hold units in reserve and when they become available you can continue to hold them in reserve.

Codex quote:
"If you do this then the troops may only enter through the web way, and if it has not been opened on the turn they become available to enter play, they must be held back until it is."

You quoted it! As the rule explicitly says, "they must be held back until it is." Of course, your analysis immediately above it says something completely different than the rule, but that's what we have been saying about your analysis all along.

You will next say that I haven't limited that to situations where the reserve rule is not in play in the general scenario. Your statement would be incorrect. The WWP rule allows you to hold back models even if you would not normally be able to do so - it makes no distinction between those two situations, but rather says that you can hold models back in reserve, no matter what. If you hold those models back, then they must go through the WWP.

Any other questions?

I don't know how else to spell that out for you but all it says is you are allowed to keep a unit in reserve, which would be at the start of the game... think of Terminator armor and the ability to always start in reserve even if it's not allowed. They can always Deep Strike... even if the mission doesn't allow it.

All the portal does is allow you to have reserves if the mission doesn't allow reserves. If the mission doesn't allow and you choose to hold units in reserve using the web way portal the only way they can come in to play is through the web way portal.

In a game that normally has reserves... do i have to deep strike my terminators? No. It's just normal reserves and follows the BGB.

If that isn't clear... why don't you explain to me what "this" is referring to in the sentence. "If you do this"