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Vehicles can be within 1" of enemy models. After a vehicle assault, the enemy models do not get to consolidate, and so for the next turn, they stand next to the vehicle (assuming they didn't destroy it) Are you saying then the vehicle would not be free to move away, since it started it's move within 1"? Or would the enemy troops not be able to move either, since they began their move within 1"?

No they can't, no model can move within 1" of an enemy model this is in the BGB. I double checked this last night. Reading the skimmer rules it only says "they may always move over enemy troops" it says nothing about ignoring this basic blanket rule.

It is impossible to move over an enemy troop without moving within 1" of it in the process.

@whitedragon
unfortunately they are supposed to be moved back 1" immediately after the assault phase. no one does it because it is a pain in the ass. The unit(yours) are not locked in combat and so "technically" are supposed to be moved away. Again, I doubt very few players think it's necessary to move them in such a way.

@tc
Is it impossible to fly over infinitely tall trees?
The game stipulates that the "few meters a skimmer hovers off the ground" [paraphrase] is enough to fly over Levels 1-3 terrain/models/etc.

No they can NOT come within 1" of an enemy model.
Nor can they end their movement over a model.

During their move "skimmers may always move OVER enemy troops" and there by are not moving within 1" of an enemy model as the game system requires that they stay outside of the 1" bubble.

You say that when a skimmer flies over a model, it does not at any time come within 1" of it. Why, then, do you think it does so when it comes in through a surrounded WWP?

Because it is not beginning its movement INSIDE the portal.
that is why I brought up the point of SMF from off of your own table edge.

The very first point that the skimmer comes onto the table it is within that 1" bubble as it has not begun movement.

It can't be moving from outside of the table right?

The very first point that the skimmer comes onto the table it is within that 1" bubble as it has not begun movement.

Contradiction in terms: it has "come onto the table," yet it has not "begun movement"? How is this possible?

Let me backtrack a bit. I realise I didn't respond to a major point of yours.

Is it impossible to fly over infinitely tall trees?

No, it's entirely possible, but it doesn't mean you never came within 1" of them.

The game stipulates that the "few meters a skimmer hovers off the ground" [paraphrase] is enough to fly over Levels 1-3 terrain/models/etc.

And how does this lead you to conclude that it never comes within 1" of a model it's flying over?

So Paidinfull, do reserves start off the table and move on, or do they deploy, and then move? Rhetorical question; they begin their move from reserves; they move into the table. (if you have been doing it the other way, then you have been gaining between 1" and 8" of movement, depending on the size of the vehicle you have "deployed and then moved", which is not okay)

So you're saying that you are moving before the model is actually on the table?

If that's the case, why are players not able to claim SMF if they only move 1" onto the table?

The phrase "come on to the table" meaning being placed into play.

I think we can both agree that it is not "moving" outside of the play area.

If it is not moving outside the play area when does it begin moving? At what point is it considered on the table? It's just there... within 1" of an enemy model?

You are choosing during the movement to fly at a "height" (something that is not well defined in 40k) and are REQUIRED to not come within 1" of an enemy model.

@Antonin
I measure from the edge of the table like everyone else.

The point that I am trying to make is there is a point, in game terms, where the model is "existing" in play, not moving, even in the instances that we take as common place such as reserves.

We know that you can't claim movement distance off of the table as outside of the table is an unknown not defined in game terms. Because it is not moving, it has to have a point of origin where the model "exists" but is not moving. How else do you define that its moved? It moved from one point... to the next.

It is immaterial. If there is a wall of enemy models blocking a table edge a skimmer can move on from the table edge moving over enemy models.

No rule has been broken. The skimmer has not come within 1" of any enemy models as it has moved over them.

The same exact thing is true of a Webway Portal.

Antonin
(I wrote something else but didn't update doh!)
Think of the table edge as Point A.
Point A = 0
a skimmer moves from Point A to Point B
point B is 12" onto the table

What is the skimmer doing at Point A? It's not moving. It's just there... it's "existing". Point A can not be within 1" of an enemy model per the BGB.

What your are suggesting is that Point A is actually an arbitrary number that could potentially be a negative number when the game system doesn't permit that. It can't be moving at Point A and Point A can't be less than 0 as that is technically not on the table.

So you're saying that you are moving before the model is actually on the table?

I am saying that the only way the model appears on the table is by moving on, and the distance moved is measured from the board edge (or WWP in this case). You do not plonk it on and then move it. You measure the distance and move it on. If it hasn't moved, it is not yet on the table.

If that's the case, why are players not able to claim SMF if they only move 1" onto the table?

Because "the skimmer must end its move more than 6" from where it started the turn." It started the turn at the table boundary.

The phrase "come on to the table" meaning being placed into play.

And how do you place it in play? You measure from the table edge/WWP and move it on. It is not on the table until it has moved on.

If it is not moving outside the play area when does it begin moving?

Good question. I'd like to hear your answer to it.

At what point is it considered on the table? It's just there... within 1" of an enemy model?

As per the BGB, it is on the table as soon as it has "moved on."

You are choosing during the movement to fly at a "height" (something that is not well defined in 40k) and are REQUIRED to not come within 1" of an enemy model.

So why may you not choose to come in through the WWP already at that height?

No it can't Yak
where does it say that a skimmer can ignore being within 1" of an enemy model while it isn't moving?

What is the skimmer doing at Point A? It's not moving. It's just there... it's "existing".

In this case, the skimmer is never "at" point A. First it is off-table. Then it has "moved on." It is not on the table until it has "moved on."

TC
Where is it moving from? It STARTS at 0(table edge) but it can't start there.

If it is in motion, as you say, and has moved from some point off the table why can't we use that point to gain SMF?

Because that point is not relative in game terms as it is not on the table.

You actually have a valid point. Either it does somehow "start" on the table or, if it doesn't, it can't possibly benefit from SMF at all on the turn it enters, since you can't measure distance to nowhere.

There's a problem, though. Quote me the rule that says it can't "start"/"exist" within 1" of an enemy. I see the one that says you can't "move within 1" of an enemy," but if your reading is correct, then the vehicle is not moving when it is at point A--so what's the problem?

I don't have the BGB here with me at work, so unfortunately I won't be able to quote it until later this evening.

At this point, the poll is pretty overwhelming against you paidinfull. I know you don't want to hear this, but you are wrong and we have now shown you again and again why you are wrong.

Since the majority agrees with me, Yakface, and t-C, the burden really lies with you. So far, you have failed to convince me (and in fact since Yakface joined the discussion, failed to convince anyone else, it was 7-6 when I voted and now is 13-6).

I'll keep checking this thread, but I don't see it getting any more useful.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Here is an additional point: if, as paidinfull claims, there is a prohibition on merely "being"/"existing" within 1" of an enemy you aren't assaulting (a prohibition I cannot find in my dex), is it or is it not legal to be assaulted? After all, you aren't assaulting the enemy, yet you're within 1", right?

Er no, I'd say if I placed a skimmer 1" on the table it moved 1".

If the skimmer was only one inch thick.

If it was a raider and I moved it 'straight' on, it's about 7" long so that'd be 7+1=8" of movement.

The edge doesn't have a measurement value--it's your starting point. It's not like you are deploying, you know that right? You are actually moving on.

Leman Russes can't just place themselves on the table and fire their ordnance weapon without scattering 2 dice. They moved 6" to get onto the table.

I'm still confused how you don't know this.

I'm aware of that Ozy, and at this point if I am unable to find a quote that says a model can not "be" within 1" of an enemy model then I will concede.

Conversely I haven't felt there has been substantial evidence on Yak, you and TC's part to make me feel otherwise.

I honestly feel that it the game works as I'm describing it.

paidinfull wrote:@whitedragon
unfortunately they are supposed to be moved back 1" immediately after the assault phase. no one does it because it is a pain in the ass. The unit(yours) are not locked in combat and so "technically" are supposed to be moved away. Again, I doubt very few players think it's necessary to move them in such a way.

This is not true at all. The FAQ states that the best way to resolve this is to AGREE to move the vehicles away after a close combat, but the rules do not state this. After a close combat with a vehicle, nobody goes anywhere, until the next movement phase.

My point was that since no model can come within 1" of another model unless to assault, this leaves both the vehicles and the attackers "technically" deadlocked for the rest of the game by RAW, which is silly obviously.

Stelek...
when you place a model 27" from a board edge via deepstrike did you move it there or did you place it there? How far did it move? 27"? Where did it move from?

My point is that you aren't moving from a point off of the table.
The Leman Russ is a good example. The model has to be entirely on the table right? You can't opt to leave it at it's starting point which is the table edge because the model is not completely on the table so you are forced to move a minimum distance equal to the size of the model.

whitedragon wrote:This is not true at all. The FAQ states that the best way to resolve this is to AGREE to move the vehicles away after a close combat, but the rules do not state this. After a close combat with a vehicle, nobody goes anywhere, until the next movement phase.

My point was that since no model can come within 1" of another model unless to assault, this leaves both the vehicles and the attackers "technically" deadlocked for the rest of the game by RAW, which is silly obviously.

here is the FAQ

It's clear that there should be a minimum space of 1" after the models have assaulted a vehicle.

Sombody told me if you park a vehhicle on it that then the DE could not use it anymore.

Actually you can't park on it
I believe it counts as impassible terrain.

TC
I am not trying to imply that whatsoever. The close combat and assault phase rules and descriptions are sufficient for me.

Of course you're not trying to imply it. My point is that it would be a consequence of what you're claiming.

Also, how on earth does

NOTE: If both players agree, the best way to represent
this is to move such models slightly away from the
vehicle at the end of their assault (ideally 1”!), much like
a consolidation move. This will also allow the vehicle to
move away more neatly during its Movement phase.

support your claim? Come on, it says right at the beginning that this can only be done "If both players agree," i.e. it is a suggested house rule.

TC
No it wouldn't be a consequence as they would fall under a different section of the rules entirely which is defined as assault.

A suggested house rule? Ok... let's say they don't agree. What happens?

My turn:
I assault your Land Raider with 10 guardsmen with lasguns.

Your turn:
You go to move your Land Raider... oh wait you're with in 1" of my guardsmen... You can't do that.