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So, as a long-time fan of Jervis, I've been hopin', and prayin', and wishin', and dreamin' that he has a Master Plan for 40K, that will finally become clear to us, the poor huddled masses, when the new edition comes out. Many have compared this Plan to a rudderless ship, or to a car without a steering-wheel or brakes and with the doors welded shut, or to the Hindenburg, or to Hillary Clinton's campaign, but I don't really think that its right, as General Buck Turgidson said, to make any judgement until all the facts are in.

I believe that the GW suits have made an error in insisting on backwards compatibility with the previous codices. I also believe that Jervis had little or no control over that decision.

Did Jervis already have 5th edition in mind when he wrote the Dark Angel Codex? Did Gav have 5th in mind when he wrote the CSM Codex? I'm uncertain.

It seems pretty clear to me, though, reading between the lines, that the Ork Codex and then Daemon Codex were designed with 5th edition in mind, moreso than with 4th in mind. Let's start with the Ork Codex as the first Codex designed for 5th edition (but feel free to argue with my choice in your responses).

I think that the true measure of whether Jervis really has a Master Plan, or whether he's just throwing darts at a cork-board with a bunch of design criteria posted on it, will be shown in how the Ork-Daemon-Space Marine armies work together (or rather, against each other), and, of course, how subsequent codices work when they're introduced. The full effects of Jervis's changes in 5th edition will not be felt for years, but we can probably get a good look at what's in store for the game in general by examining matchups between the most recent codices mentioned above. Are those matchups varied and interesting and fun? Those are the criteria by which Jervis's success, or lack thereof, should be judged, in my opinion.

Soon, we'll have an answer, and I'll know whether I should leave "Jervis Saves" in my signature.

Well, if they are indeed actualy forwarding the story line of the universe, he could very easily have a master plan invovled with his eccentric (yet usually decent) rule and codex writing.

What do you mean by backwards compatibility to the 4th edition codexes?

The core game system hasn't changed. Some of the detail changes (vehicle movement speeds, changes to cover and LoS rules) may affect the balance of power slightly, depending on the exact matchups played.

If I am not mistaken, the Tau Empire codex, which is now 2 years old, will be the oldest unreissued 4th edition codex for another 2 years or more. The older 3rd edition codexes have either been upgraded to 4.9 (Eldar) or are in the pipeline.

Do you think the rule changes are significantly good or bad for Tau? How would you change things for the 5th edition Tau codex?

More generally, allowing 4-5 years for an edition life cycle, the slow pace of codex releases means some armies don't get renewed within the lifetime of an edition. Forexample, DE and IG. Players would get seriously annoyed if their army got made unworkable for 2-3 years.

I mean that the Tau Empire Codex was not designed with 5th edition in mind. It may not be balanced properly for 5th edition. It will obviously be playable, but it won't mesh with the basic rules and the other codices like a finely-tuned machine, I suspect.

As far as whether the rule change will be "good" or "bad" for the Tau... I don't know. I haven't really given it much thought. I suspect that they're going to really sweat it against dedicated assault armies who can now "run," but we'll see. Ultimately I don't really care about how the current Tau Empire Codex works in 5th, for the purposes of this discussion. I don't think it's relevant. It'll be okay, but it isn't part of Jervis's Master Plan (assuming there is one). It seems to work pretty well in the context of 4th edition, but things will, of course, change with the new edition.

I think the Dev team is just waiting for the next big hit, some army that does really well for them. Why do you think Marines were raced to the front of the line when 5th Ed was announced?

Sadly, as long as they maintain their rigid devotion to releasing a 'Dex and then ignoring any lasting problems it has for the next 4-10 years (lesser if your power armour, more if your Dark Eldar/Orks), then they won't improve.

If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.

Heh, exalt.

If they were really worried about making everything fit, we'd have a Ravening Hordes style book to cover everything that came before the Ork 'Dex (if that is the true "first" 5th ed. 'dex). But we won't. The old codecies will still be there, unbalanced rules and all. I doubt we'll ever see a complete reboot of 40k (which it desperately needs) until Wizkids or Hasbro buys the company and implements pre-painted collectible figures.

I know they're getting worked on (and if the few pics we've seen are any indication, they're going to be ace!), but the Dark Eldar, is their Codex really 10 years old?

I've heard a lot of people complain about that, but never really from any Dark Eldar players. Are Dark Eldar players looking forward to a new Codex, given the changes that the recent ones have seen, or dreading it?

BYE

The first army I ever collected was Dark Eldar, with these rules. That was 1998.

Well the dark eldar to me, has a codex that has most of the units being decent, with a few that are absoultely crap... scourges, grotesques, hellions. Some are in the middle - talos. reaver jetbikes have had everything that made them special given to everyone else, yet are still priced as if they are unique.
All the special wargear and vehicle upgrades are pretty much useless. But the stuff that works - lords, wyches,incubi, warriors, raiders, ravagers, are awesome, and a very competitive army can be made out of them. That's why most Dark Eldar armies tend to be very samey.

The biggest problem with the dark eldar are the models though. I like the warriors, but it's probably a 3 to 1 split on liking them vs hating them. Wyches ar ok, but most players would like to see plastic, and hopefully new sculpts. Most of the rest of the army is the same. Some of the models are probably the worst in GW's whole range, I'm looking at you Mandrakes and Grotesques!

And yes I do play them. I personally am waiting for a new codex to have some of the useless stuff reworked / rebalanced. Although I'm guessing Ravagers and Dark Lances will be going up in price or getting the 1 DL / 10 warriors "improvement". I'd really like to have a bunch of the mysterious stuff FAQ's more than anything else.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I know they're getting worked on (and if the few pics we've seen are any indication, they're going to be ace!), but the Dark Eldar, is their Codex really 10 years old?

I've heard a lot of people complain about that, but never really from any Dark Eldar players. Are Dark Eldar players looking forward to a new Codex, given the changes that the recent ones have seen, or dreading it?

BYE

According to the metagame info available, there aren't very many DE players around (approx 3% of all armies at GTs) but they are probably happy with their dex as they rank very highly, showing it is still a competitive build. (I believe DE players are very good players.)

I'm sure a new book and some new models would be much appreciated even so. My point is that GW do not prioritise DE over Spase Marienz because of the market segments.

This is somewhat OT.

Greebynog wrote:The first army I ever collected was Dark Eldar, with these rules. That was 1998.

So are you happy with what you have, or do you want a Jervised Edition of your Codex?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:I think the Dev team is just waiting for the next big hit, some army that does really well for them. Why do you think Marines were raced to the front of the line when 5th Ed was announced?

Sadly, as long as they maintain their rigid devotion to releasing a 'Dex and then ignoring any lasting problems it has for the next 4-10 years (lesser if your power armour, more if your Dark Eldar/Orks), then they won't improve.

If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.

HBMC you're asking for bright purple in a black & white world.

There won't be a next big hit without a revamp of Necrons or Dark Eldar.

Marines? Who cares. Five colors = five armies? That's gay.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I know they're getting worked on (and if the few pics we've seen are any indication, they're going to be ace!), but the Dark Eldar, is their Codex really 10 years old?

I've heard a lot of people complain about that, but never really from any Dark Eldar players. Are Dark Eldar players looking forward to a new Codex, given the changes that the recent ones have seen, or dreading it?

Yes it's 10 years old.

I have a ton of DE stuff.

I'm a DE player, I don't mind the old Codex (it has a few 'I win' configurations that most current armies cannot beat easily if at all) but I would like a new Codex.

Sadly, playtesting a new DE codex seems far from GW's mind.

"Just release it" seems to be the watch word.

Kind of like the Dark Elves, who are shaping up into a whole new definition of 'suck'.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Greebynog wrote:The first army I ever collected was Dark Eldar, with these rules. That was 1998.

So are you happy with what you have, or do you want a Jervised Edition of your Codex?

I'd rather keep the one I have, but given how close to being retired out old JJ is I'm not sure the DE will avoid that fate...I'd rather see them updated than anything else, but if the Jervis format hits the DE they'll be really boring.

The only codex I can see gaining anything from the Jervis format are the Necrons.

They're already so boring and optionless that even a crappy sidegrade can't help but change them.

Now all that said, what do I expect?

A crap DE Codex, unless Phil Kelly does it.

A crap Necron Codex, unless Phil Kelly does it.

Everyone else at the studio, bunch of idiots. Alot of people think PK makes uber codices, I disagree.

He makes codices you can play alot of different armies with.

Compare that to Jervis (and everyone else, honestly) and you have a decent book compared to utterly worthless trash.

Sadly, GW needs to figure out that players don't like having a crap army running in the same space as a powerful one and get told 'these are the same, you will win, trust us'.

Of course, they haven't figured that out yet so I doubt they will anytime soon.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Greebynog wrote:The first army I ever collected was Dark Eldar, with these rules. That was 1998.

So are you happy with what you have, or do you want a Jervised Edition of your Codex?

BYE

I haven't played them in years, so it's not my codex anymore, and I can't really comment from that point of view. Some of the worst beatdowns I've ever recieved have been at the hands of DE however. The models are in need of work more than the book, but at GW, you can't have one without the other. Saying that, the reason I got into this hobby at all was the DE warrior models, but looking at them now, they've aged like an Italian housewife. What woud be nice for DE would be if all the units were actually useful to a degree, and some weren't near 'I win' buttons. I can dream...

Ratbarf wrote:Well, if they are indeed actualy forwarding the story line of the universe, he could very easily have a master plan invovled with his eccentric (yet usually decent) rule and codex writing.

QFT. There have been a bunch of world-wide, supposedly story-line breaking campaigns for each system. And at the end of each, nothing much happened. Still cringe thinking of the end of the Storm of Chaos campaign. Gav still needs a kick in the jumblies for that travesty.

If anyone at GW has a master plan then I'd like to hear it. But when I see the differences between army books like O&G and empire versus vampires and demons I don't think there is a plan.

Wouldn't it be cool if GW just said "This is our plan for 40k. [Says plan]. What do you think?" Then we could all complain about something substantial!

/daydream

GW can't advance any major plot lines because it would lead to some kind of resolution. This would reduce the amount of conflict going on in the galaxy by eliminating one faction or boosting another into a position of superiority.

That's why the Eye of Terror campaign ended with Chaos not breaking out, but not being decisively defeated either.

It's why the Tau ended the Medusa campaign by deciding not to research warp travel. If the Tau had warp travel they would break out of their very small area of the galaxy and become a major threat.

Notice also that at the end of Medusa, the Necrons had been very badly spanked. Rather than being a major setback, this was written off as just a local embarrassment that ended the career of the local head Necron but did no harm to their strategic situation.

LOL,


Jervo the Clown has done this to the company. From Febuary 21 the share price was 209.00, until today- the share price is 172.50.


Where I come from, thats called a loss.
At this rate of growth, (Or lack there of), They will probibly tank out in the next six months, by the share price going tits up around 25-50.00 on the downslide.

He's a nice guy, a heck of a good old chap, drinks out with the boys and all that, but can't stablize a miniatures game, which in turn drives away the support, fan base, and the interest in a floundering product. The retreaded old argument of he's a great game designer and all that have well worn thin. He's held onto because of past success. And that past success in this type of a market is ancient history. As soon as the time comes that he's no longer effective, he is going to be downsized.

" Heck, I used to play 40K. It was a fun game back then, I wonder what happend to it....."

When you put Jervis Johnson and Master Plan in the same paragraph, I think thats what lost it fore you. This guy is a representative, period. He CAN'T make any decision without licking a few more boots. The Corperation Suit types will and always continue to call the shots based on a business prespective. They continue to lose money because they don't know thier market. As for the whole " Oh how I wish a fish was here" stuff.... you won't have to worry much longer.

If 5th Edition doesn't get people playing, then we won't have to worry about what Jervis thinks. They will Can him almsot as fast as they did to everyone else.
It will probibly go along the lines of " Well, gang. After 30 something odd years, I've decided to call it quits and take a nice vacation..." Where as in the background, they go... " Where are we going to get our bonus's from this month? Why lets shut a few of these so called" Floundering " stores and sacrifice someone." All eyeing Jervis.

-Best thing I can think of for these tools to recoupe is to have someone else entirely make a hostile takeover, buy out one of the major shareholders and privatize the company. After that, they can gop ahead and start with the Tshirts, the candybars, and the film rights for the game. A TV weekly series comes a few moths later, and we get a few High roller well know named celebrities to come out and say " heck yeah, I play 40K. I have a 300 pt army of ..... too, for fantasy."
Maybe we get Beef's girl, Amy, to do a hit song or two about the game, and there you go. back on top with a vengence.

The've already started with the Fastasy Flight thing, next they can go along the lines of charging metal prices for plastic... Oh, wait.

Nice rant. I understand where people come from when they say Jevris is ruining the game and so on...but all things have to move forward don't they. When 6th ed comes out no doubt we'll all be here again lamenting who ever seems to be incharge then-or who wrote the rules and recent codexes at the time.

Well thats my view sorted, now to find something to do

Grot 6 wrote:He's a nice guy, a heck of a good old chap, drinks out with the boys and all that, but can't stablize a miniatures game, which in turn drives away the support, fan base, and the interest in a floundering product. The retreaded old argument of he's a great game designer and all that have well worn thin. He's held onto because of past success. And that past success in this type of a market is ancient history.

Wow, hate much?

Actually, I think Jervis is riding high ATM due to Apocalypse. You may not like him, 40k, or Apoc, but Apoc made a huge impact on GW's bottom line, so he's not going to be canned anytime soon.

Here is how I rank some of the newer existing codices in terms of which version they were written to apply:

Dark Angels (V ed.)
Blood Angels (V ed.)
Eldar (in-between IV and V)
Orks (V ed.)
Chaos Marines (V ed.)
Chaos Daemons (V ed.)
Tyranids (in-between IV and V)
Tau (IV ed.)
new Spaced Marines (V ed.)

G

Grot 6 wrote:LOL,


Jervo the Clown has done this to the company. From Febuary 21 the share price was 209.00, until today- the share price is 172.50.


Where I come from, thats called a loss.
At this rate of growth, (Or lack there of), They will probibly tank out in the next six months, by the share price going tits up around 25-50.00 on the downslide.

This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, as far as I can tell.

He's a nice guy, a heck of a good old chap, drinks out with the boys and all that, but can't stablize a miniatures game, which in turn drives away the support, fan base, and the interest in a floundering product. The retreaded old argument of he's a great game designer and all that have well worn thin. He's held onto because of past success. And that past success in this type of a market is ancient history. As soon as the time comes that he's no longer effective, he is going to be downsized.

This is bull, IMO. 2004's Epic Armageddon is hardly "ancient history."

When you put Jervis Johnson and Master Plan in the same paragraph, I think thats what lost it fore you. This guy is a representative, period. He CAN'T make any decision without licking a few more boots. The Corperation Suit types will and always continue to call the shots based on a business prespective. They continue to lose money because they don't know thier market. As for the whole " Oh how I wish a fish was here" stuff.... you won't have to worry much longer.

It's possible you're right about this. It's hard to know, exactly, what Jervis's job is these days, and how much latitude he has in that job. I'm sorta assuming he's something like the lead designer for 40K, but I don't really know.

Anyone else keep having flash backs to Andy Chambers leaving GW round the time of 4th's release whenever JJ's name and 5th are mentioned in the same sentence?

That's what I'm worried about. Rick Priestley seems to have pretty much lost interest in Warhammer FB and 40K, and all the rest of the Old Guard (besides Jervis) have left. I guess if Jervis does leave, it's possible that some bright new star of game design could spring up in his place. :\

You can't blame JJ by himself.

We all agree that GW exists to sell models, not rules.

Why does anyone expect the design studio to get its collective act together?

If there is a new hotshot designer, he is going to need kintama of steel to completely rewrite the system for 6th edition.

I don't know it even needs it.

I don't think its about redesigning, just making the game feel less aimed at Rookies, which is sometimes how it comes across in the new codexes, this may just be my opinion.

And while GW does exist to sell minatures if they had rules and codexes people liked, and were happy using continuously then surely model sales would go up, people wanting to buy models to game with. Not saying people don't so that already, but maybe to a greater extent instead

This takes us back to the old old arguments.

GW probably sell a lot more stuff to rookies than veteran players.

I know a lot of Dakkites have several armies and are always building more. Against that, there are people like me who have enough of one army to be going on with, and will only occasionally buy more stuff.

But there is a limitless supply of 13 year old boys to start into 40K, and they have to buy tons of stuff.

I ragged on JJ because of his Standard Bearer article, but in truth, I think he is doing a good thing for 40K. I just happened to not like his attitude in that article, but I agree with his direction.

It's obvious that he is trying to bring a balance to the Codices. I don't necessarily believe in reducing options, but I'm glad that balance is important this time around. When Gav Thorpe did things, it was very clear that fun creative rules >>> balanced Codex. At least JJ is trying. That, and I have to give him props for bringing the rules and the fluff more in line with each other. Those losing their 6 man las/plas may lament (and I will be playing the world's smallest violin for them), but I'm glad to see full 10 man squads back in the game.

And though we give JJ crap about that other article where he mentioned his son, I know that the Rulebook and Codices should have the pictures of the weapons printed. Yeah, we are all veterans now, but would we know what a Plasmagun or a Meltagun looked like if there wasn't a picture of these in the Rogue Trader hardback? Hell, I started in my teens (I presume the majority of us did), but we complain endlessly about how GW caters to teenagers and not veteran adults. That's a bit hypocritical, I think. Sure, there may be a high turnover amongst the younger crowd, but as evident by the amount of traffic garnered here and elsewhere, some of the teens will become veterans (all grizzled and jaded and bitter like the rest of us), so I'm figuring that this is all part of GW's long term plan of survival.

JJ's problem is that he has to fix the Codex Creep and the Broken Units, rebalance both the Rules and the Armies, reconcile the Fluff with the Rules, maintain a relative Low Learning Curve for beginners, appease the Veterans, entice New Players, while having the Toe the Party Line of "There is nothing wrong and we are not admitting that we made mistakes" as a Spokesperson while actually fixing mistakes as a Designer.

In truth, I like JJ. I just wish he just didn't say what he did in the last Standard Bearer.

Storm Lord wrote:And while GW does exist to sell minatures if they had rules and codexes people liked, and were happy using continuously then surely model sales would go up, people wanting to buy models to game with. Not saying people don't so that already, but maybe to a greater extent instead

I disagree, and I think GW does, too.

Every game system with these happy rules / lists ends up being a static system - players reach their balance points, buy their stuff, and play with the same stuff. The manufacturer only sells one batch of rules, and one batch of minis. Incremental sales are <20% tied to the occasional newbie joining an established group. But that is offset by the slow drain as people get tired of the same old stuff, until the system dies. Basically, you get slightly higher initial sales, but no follow-on sales.

GW, OTOH, follows good B-school practice of churning the customer base as often as they can stand it. GW deliberatey utilizes the pendulum effect to drive new sales. Basically, GW just needs to get players "pot committed", and then they're hooked. Sure, they eventually drive the occasional Vet out, but they get a lot more income while he's in the game, than if they could magically produce a "perfect" system.

If you don't like that, you'd better get out of the hobby ASAP, because GW is perfecting their churn in WFB and 40k.