Jervis Johnson & 40K: A Reasonable Metric

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Kilkrazy**

I have said before in several other threads, I don't think GW's definition of "The Hobby" is actually the reason for their success. GW built itself up by selling a wide variety of games stuff from D&D to licensed products (RuneQuest), figures and rules and games they produced by themselves.

The period of their long ascendancy broadly coincides with the time they were a multi-range games retailer and producer.

The period of their long, gradual decline has coincided with their concentration on WHFB, 40K and LoTR.

GW need to diversify again and come back with products like Talisman and Space Hulk.

**Pariah Press**

Grot 6 wrote:You don't even know what this whole thread is about in the first place, then you go in and pick at my post without even reading it and then you think you know something?
The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.

So, if I'm reading you right, what you consider to be a "reasonable metric" (the topic of this thread, if you'll recall) for Jervis' skills as a games designer, is whether GW's sales goes up?

I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.

Promises... always with the promises...

**grizgrin**

Congratulations Grot 6! You are the latest person to cause me to try out my iggy button! The posts I have witnessed in this thread from you tell me the author is shooting from a hip he doesn't have, or has been indulging in "Beam and Coke" too much to be allowed to sit in front of a keyboard. Your posts are breaking up any value this thread has. Any decent points these posts have are far outweighed by the ridiculous fashion in which they are diluted by the language you choose to use, and the combative construction. Good job, and I think this thread will make a lot more sense without the hysterically senseless rants presented in your posts. Have fun in the Abyss, kid.

**sebster**

Grot 6 wrote:You have my vote for of the year, sebster.

Aside from the fact that you didn't read anything other then what you wanted. I already went on FROM THE BEGINNING that my post wasn't about the freakin stocks!!!!
the Stocks! I'm saying that this game is being run into the ground by beancounters who know about as much about playing this game as you do about reading my post in the first place.
YOU are the going on about stocks. I'M the saying the company is going into the toilet because they continue to alienate the costumer base.

HERE IT IS FROM THE HORSES MOUTH:

"Investors and potential investors in Games Workshop need to understand what we mean by the Hobby.
A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.
Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.
Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game."- GW

Not that YOU give a . Your still hung up on the freakin' stocks.

NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY A STOCK OR STAY IN A COMPANY IF THE PRODUCT CONTINUES TO SUCK. Now you want to go on and on about schooling. you.

You don't even know what this whole thread is about in the first place, then you go in and pick at my post without even reading it and then you think you know something?
The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.

forget it, though. You'd rather quote stocks or around with semantics.
I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.

I think in order to get the most out the internet and to give the most to others, you need to work hard on your knowledge base, as well as your communication and rhetorical skills. It's good and well to hop on-line and sound off about something, but there's a point where you have to ask yourself 'I am just spouting non-sense?'

Fortunately the internet is a wonderful to develop these things. Keep working young fella, maybe one day...

**JohnHwangDD**

Wow, sebster is complaining about someone else's posting style.

**Kallbrand**

You know you are loosing the argument when the only thing you post is critisism on the others writing skills.

**Pariah Press**

My thread! My beautiful, beautiful thread!!!

**grizgrin**

Kallbrand: I dunno, kallbrand. Sometimes the quality of post renders any meaningful reply just a waste of time. I mean, judging from the posts you have here, does it look to you like Grot 6 is going to listen to anyone? His posts appear to be so worked up that he is beyond really conversing with.

JHDD: I take it sebster usu. has a crappy posting style?

**Grot 6**

grizgrin wrote:Congratulations Grot 6! You are the latest person to cause me to try out my iggy button! The posts I have witnessed in this thread from you tell me the author is shooting from a hip he doesn't have, or has been indulging in "Beam and Coke" too much to be allowed to sit in front of a keyboard. Your posts are breaking up any value this thread has. Any decent points these posts have are far outweighed by the ridiculous fashion in which they are diluted by the language you choose to use, and the combative construction. Good job, and I think this thread will make a lot more sense without the hysterically senseless rants presented in your posts. Have fun in the Abyss, kid.

Coming from you thats a badge of honor, you have to know that your opinion really matters.

**Grot 6**

sebster wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:You have my vote for of the year, sebster.

Aside from the fact that you didn't read anything other then what you wanted. I already went on FROM THE BEGINNING that my post wasn't about the freakin stocks!!!!
the Stocks! I'm saying that this game is being run into the ground by beancounters who know about as much about playing this game as you do about reading my post in the first place.
YOU are the going on about stocks. I'M the saying the company is going into the toilet because they continue to alienate the costumer base.

HERE IT IS FROM THE HORSES MOUTH:

"Investors and potential investors in Games Workshop need to understand what we mean by the Hobby.
A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.
Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.
Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game."- GW

Not that YOU give a . Your still hung up on the freakin' stocks.

NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY A STOCK OR STAY IN A COMPANY IF THE PRODUCT CONTINUES TO SUCK. Now you want to go on and on about schooling. you.

You don't even know what this whole thread is about in the first place, then you go in and pick at my post without even reading it and then you think you know something?
The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.

forget it, though. You'd rather quote stocks or around with semantics.
I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.

I think in order to get the most out the internet and to give the most to others, you need to work hard on your knowledge base, as well as your communication and rhetorical skills. It's good and well to hop on-line and sound off about something, but there's a point where you have to ask yourself 'I am just spouting non-sense?'

Fortunately the internet is a wonderful to develop these things. Keep working young fella, maybe one day...

Keep on keeping on, you

**JohnHwangDD**

Pariah Press wrote: My thread! My beautiful, beautiful thread!!!

Welcome to Dakka. If it makes you feel any better, see what happened to my 5th Edition "Thoughts and Comments" thread.

grizgrin wrote:JHDD: I take it sebster usu. has a crappy posting style?

Dakka has a search feature. You can use it to see what others think of his posting style.

**sebster**

Kallbrand wrote:You know you are loosing the argument when the only thing you post is critisism on the others writing skills.

I made a comment that the line of reasoning used didn’t work all that well (stock price defined by ruleset). From there a conversation can go in a lot of different directions, you can start about what’s really driven the fall in GW stock prices, or you can start looking at a real metric for the popularity of a ruleset.

But all you have to do is read Grot6’s replies to get a pretty clear idea about why that conversation didn’t happen. What exactly do you expect me to reply with when all Grot6 comes up with is incoherent screeds?

Meanwhile JonHwangDD launches a driveby. Seriously dude, what the hell have I argued with you about? I remember a discussion about the rumoured IG rules that lasted a few posts, and something in one of the rumoured 5th ed threads, neither of which were heated.

**JohnHwangDD**

@sebster: Thanks for giving yet another an example of what I was talking about.

**grizgrin**

So John I take it I should just search Dakka anytime I have a question? Sorry to disturb you with a question, was interested in your opinion. Search away!

**JCu**

Kilkrazy wrote:What do you mean by backwards compatibility to the 4th edition codexes?

The core game system hasn't changed. Some of the detail changes (vehicle movement speeds, changes to cover and LoS rules) may affect the balance of power slightly, depending on the exact matchups played.

If I am not mistaken, the Tau Empire codex, which is now 2 years old, will be the oldest unreissued 4th edition codex for another 2 years or more. The older 3rd edition codexes have either been upgraded to 4.9 (Eldar) or are in the pipeline.

Do you think the rule changes are significantly good or bad for Tau? How would you change things for the 5th edition Tau codex?

More generally, allowing 4-5 years for an edition life cycle, the slow pace of codex releases means some armies don't get renewed within the lifetime of an edition. Forexample, DE and IG. Players would get seriously annoyed if their army got made unworkable for 2-3 years.

Dark Eldar probably/hopefully wont be upgraded for a long time, I used to play orks, but the new codex ruined them. The dark eldar are so well balanced atm, they'll be useless if they take away there specialities like wyches, like they did to orks (choppas gone and no mob up). And why did they do that!?!?! why did they ruin orks only chance of winning? I remember when orks used to mob up, making it justifiably hard to stop an ork waaagh!

**Greebynog**

JCu wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:What do you mean by backwards compatibility to the 4th edition codexes?

The core game system hasn't changed. Some of the detail changes (vehicle movement speeds, changes to cover and LoS rules) may affect the balance of power slightly, depending on the exact matchups played.

If I am not mistaken, the Tau Empire codex, which is now 2 years old, will be the oldest unreissued 4th edition codex for another 2 years or more. The older 3rd edition codexes have either been upgraded to 4.9 (Eldar) or are in the pipeline.

Do you think the rule changes are significantly good or bad for Tau? How would you change things for the 5th edition Tau codex?

More generally, allowing 4-5 years for an edition life cycle, the slow pace of codex releases means some armies don't get renewed within the lifetime of an edition. Forexample, DE and IG. Players would get seriously annoyed if their army got made unworkable for 2-3 years.

Dark Eldar probably/hopefully wont be upgraded for a long time, I used to play orks, but the new codex ruined them. The dark eldar are so well balanced atm, they'll be useless if they take away there specialities like wyches, like they did to orks (choppas gone and no mob up). And why did they do that!?!?! why did they ruin orks only chance of winning? I remember when orks used to mob up, making it justifiably hard to stop an ork waaagh!

Really? I mean, really? Orks are a LOT better now. Seriously, boo hoo, no choppas, but boys cost 2/3 of the price. Mobbing up's gone, now boys mobs of any decent size are fearless. I think I can hear the world's smallest violin tuning up. If those were your only chances of winning with orks I would suggest it's your playing rather than the frankly brilliant new codex's fault. Phil Kelly FTW. I'd be interested to hear your reasons for hating on the new dex, I'd like to be enlightened.

Ps. BoLS's poll for who'll be strongest in 5th posted orks at no.1. Go figure.

**Kymera**

JCu wrote:

Dark Eldar probably/hopefully wont be upgraded for a long time, I used to play orks, but the new codex ruined them. The dark eldar are so well balanced atm, they'll be useless if they take away there specialities like wyches, like they did to orks (choppas gone and no mob up). And why did they do that!?!?! why did they ruin orks only chance of winning? I remember when orks used to mob up, making it justifiably hard to stop an ork waaagh!

I disagree, while Dark Eldar are definitely not underpowered, they are definitely unbalanced. Just look at the viable DE builds and you can quickly see (and I believe someone already mentioned a few examples in this thread) the units that never make it in to competitive DE lists. That is not balance! I can't wait to see a new DE codex which will hopefully make for more than a few viable builds and not just a group of must-have units and a group of dump units that have no place in competition.

**Redbeard**

Greebynog wrote:
Really? I mean, really? Orks are a LOT better now. Seriously, boo hoo, no choppas, but boys cost 2/3 of the price. Mobbing up's gone, now boys mobs of any decent size are fearless. I think I can hear the world's smallest violin tuning up. If those were your only chances of winning with orks I would suggest it's your playing rather than the frankly brilliant new codex's fault. Phil Kelly FTW. I'd be interested to hear your reasons for hating on the new dex, I'd like to be enlightened.

Ps. BoLS's poll for who'll be strongest in 5th posted orks at no.1. Go figure.

Because the mark of a good codex isn't how powerful it can be compared to the other codexes, but, rather, how varied the options within the codex itself are.

The ork codex has some incredibly powerful builds. It will be a top contender under 5th ed rules. And, yet, you will not see bikers in those builds. You won't see tankbustas, flash gitz, looted wagons, or burna boyz either. The fact that a boy is only 6 points, and is scoring in 5th ed, sets the bar for other units so ridiculously high that only a few choices can actually compete with the basic boyz mob - and even those aren't no-brainers. I took nearly nothing but boyz mobs to adepticon and won with them.

The mark of a good codex is one where you can take many different options from it and get an army that works. The best codex, in my opinion, would be one where you take one of each unit because none are outright better than the others. That's awful hard to accomplish, but the ork codex doesn't even try. Flash gitz are so utterly overshadowed when compared to shoota-boyz.

**Greebynog**

I don't think a horde is the only viable option though, I think there's a ton of variety in the ork book compared to other races. But, it's a matter of preference I suppose. The post I was responding to claimed simultaneously that orks were underpowered and DE were balanced. I'd love to see someone argue that.

**Grot 6**

Dark Eldar are in the slot to be upgraded. When they came out, they were a joke, but after you learn how to field them, the only one laughing is you.

I don't understand your point on the Orks, Thier book is one of the better ones of the new Jervisications to really complain about. The choppa argument is a moot point now.
They have a good selection of guns to work with, as compaired to the 3d edition of a sledgehammer. Now you get a klaw-hammer to smack someone with. 2 or 3 whacks work just as well as opposed to the death or glory ride of running your truckks into the gun lines.

How do I think the DE are going to do?
skimmers and shooty shoot shoot.

**Greebynog**

Phil Kelly wrote the new ork dex not Jervis.