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Hello,

I am trying to figure out a way to make my favorite army able to even go to tournements. I would love anybodys ideas on how this can be done. Does anybody have any ideas

Astalado

Why wouldn't they be playable? Use the codex.

With the abilities of the new space Marine codex, Demeon Codex. I see now point to bring an army because I have lost the chance to even be able to play. I have played against the marine and lost every time I fielded with them in 5th addition except for once and thats because the marine player could not make a save to save his life.

Here is some question I would like answer:

How to stop:

1. Space Marine Terminators with Fleet and +2,+3 saves that can do 12-18 assault

2. Space Marine Assault with 18-24 inch Assault

3. First Turn Drop Pod Assault

4. Assault after Drop Pod

5. Flanking Bike Army.

6. Deep Strike Demeon Armies on First Turn.

Astalado wrote:With the abilities of the new space Marine codex, Demeon Codex. I see now point to bring an army because I have lost the chance to even be able to play. I have played against the marine and lost every time I fielded with them in 5th addition except for once and thats because the marine player could not make a save to save his life.

Here is some question I would like answer:

How to stop:

1. Space Marine Terminators with Fleet and +2,+3 saves that can do 12-18 assault

2. Space Marine Assault with 18-24 inch Assault

3. First Turn Drop Pod Assault

4. Assault after Drop Pod

5. Flanking Bike Army.

6. Deep Strike Demeon Armies on First Turn.

1. Termies with Fleet?! I call Shenanigans. But I don't know much about Marines just yet, so maybe...

3/4. They can't assault after deepstriking, so you just shoot 'em up when they land.

5. Stay away from the sides! I dunno about this.

6. Again, those Daemons CANNOT charge after deepstriking. And what are they gonna do in shooting, really? They land, look around a bit, then receive pulse rifles, railguns and missile pods in the face.

Yes Terminators with Fleet welcome to the Ravensgaurd. Shrike gives all units with Fleet. Vasnguard may assault out of pods thats one of there new special rules.

when Iplayed demeons I got hit with Flamer of Tznich.. who cares if they can't assault.. they can deep strike flamers in and flame template to death..

To win with Tau you must be given the chance to shoot. These rules do not give Tau the chance to shoot. and we all know .. ws 2 st 3, T 3, int. 2! is going to win allot of hand to hand games

Oh. your. God.

Assaulting OUT OF DROP PODS?! Termies with FLEET?!

Ok, here's the plan. When a Ravenguard player challenges you to a game, just scream, "CHEESE!" and smack him upside the head. Then run. Fast.

The only thing I can think of to counter this is take some Kroot and put them in a defensive ring around your Tau forces. That way, the enemy will have to assault the Kroot, and not the Fire Warriors/Crisis Suits/Hammerheads

Astalado wrote:... thats because the marine player could not make a save to save his life.

Lolz.

Vanguard can't assault out of a pod - they can only do Heroic Intervention if they have jump packs, and can only take a pod if they don't take jump packs.

Does Shrike really give fleet to termies? Because if so I'm repainting my Deathwing. 30 fleeting thudner hammmer marines. Woot!

I don't think first turn drop pod assault exists. First turn deep strike assault seems to be valid, but the unit is expensive and it is risky to deep strike so close.

What sort of list do you run?

my game store got a pre release copy of the Codex. All main units of the marines have a skill called combat tatics... aSSAULT SQUADS, TATICAL SQUADS, TEMINATORS, BASICALLY ALL INFANTRY MODELS. Now, the new shrike gets 195 points ws 6 and 4+ inv. here is the disgusting part any unitwith combat tatics may now remove combat tatics and gives them fleet. Aka 10 man term squads with +2, 3 inval saves with 12-18 inch assault and vanguard, assault squads, anything else with jump pack....24-18 inch assault. Any unit that has combat tatics

I have 8000 pts of tau I can field anything.. I have tried gun line which this kill and also the normal pod assault just eats. Suit armies butthey can't shoot move only 12 and will get run down by fleetin units. mech tau got nurfed sense we can't shoot under them. Vespid to squeshy to work anymore. I use 30 vespid with ap 3 weapons. But I can kill two units a turn. But with fleet units or pods I can't stop 6 units i n my lines in turn 2. To hard to pop tanks. Broadsides and Hammerheads can't kill as easy with everything getting 4+ cover saves. TO negate that you have to focus your marker drones to eat the cover save and that stops you shooting at the infantry

so yes... Take Revens Guard. 30 termies with fleet with assault squads with Fleet... Why not field that.

i think i know what the real problem is here, hes army is tau.

Use some speed bump units. The new consolidation rules mean your entire line can't be eaten in one go, just make sure each unit of his can only assault one of yours a turn, then blast the crap out of them.

stay the heck out of range pound him with everything and hope "he cant make a save to save his life"

better idea, pack your army with "close combat troops" if Tau have them, and just have some heavy firepower to back them up, either that or do as said above and surround your tau with kroot

If you are deploying right on the 24" line you deserve to lose every game.

TAU HAVE GOOD RANGE... USE IT!

im finding tau alot harder to play with now, but it is possible to win, just cant make any mistake now as they wont forgive.

make sure you have a solid gunline, use gun drones to fly forward and kamakazi anything close.
make use of crisis and broadsides lot.
max out on the crisis suits, give them a weaon for killing armour and one for cutting down troop.
make use of the extra move in the assult phase and keep them out of CC for aslong as possible.
take vespid for any vanguard that gets close.
and it might even be worth putting a unit of kroot behind your gunline to either stop flank units or to run forward and keep the enemy away for another turn.

im currently 5-2-2, so it is possible to win still, tau just got a little more tactical.

Tyranidlurker wrote:If you are deploying right on the 24" line you deserve to lose every game.

TAU HAVE GOOD RANGE... USE IT!

You haven't read the deployment rules for the 5th ed missions have you? When your opponent can start at the middle of the table, it makes starting greater than 24" apart impossible. Or when they can come in on the side table edges, there is only a 1/3 chance they will end up on the wrong side, 2/3 of the time they come in close to you. The range bonus Tau weapons enjoyed simply doesn't exist anymore when the enemy can start just that much closer.

breeno wrote:better idea, pack your army with "close combat troops" if Tau have them, and just have some heavy firepower to back them up, either that or do as said above and surround your tau with kroot

Tau have no close combat troops. Even Kroot arn't really close combat troops. If you throw in some hounds they do OK, but a dedicated CC unit from any other race will still shred them apart. I dislike the idea that you have to take units that are just supposed to die. You never hear about marines taking "speed bump units" Why do Tau have to offer up free KPs just to have a chance? That spells instant loss in 1/3 of all your games.

breeno wrote:better idea, pack your army with "close combat troops" if Tau have them, and just have some heavy firepower to back them up, either that or do as said above and surround your tau with kroot

Tau have no close combat troops. Even Kroot arn't really close combat troops. If you throw in some hounds they do OK, but a dedicated CC unit from any other race will still shred them apart. I dislike the idea that you have to take units that are just supposed to die. You never hear about marines taking "speed bump units" Why do Tau have to offer up free KPs just to have a chance? At 7 points each Kroot aren't really cheep enough to do that effectively. How many points do I need to spend... 70, 140, 280? That spells instant loss in 1/3 of all your games.

If they even ge a chance to fire. Dawn of War says that if you set up.. Then the other may set up 18 inches away from you... *thinks for a second* thats charge range! If they get the to go first... wow... not even one turn to shot. Tau lost there shooting ability. If you use kroot or firewarriors niether will hold up to assault. Ohh and then think of this. Drop pod assault so you have half his drop pods landing first turn in you line and his assault marines assaulting the line.. Tau loses the ability to consolidate fire and kill units with multiple units in there line. Tau is good but 4-6 units in there lines and 3 assault marines have 90% chance of killing a whole fire warrioir squad.

Thats why I started this thread... I don't see a way to keep a whole army in tournement format a fair chance

Actually, Dawn of War is 24" deployment range - table halves. Your opponent cannot set up within 18" of you, true - but they still have to set up in their own deployment zone. Thus you can deploy at the very table edge and still have at least 23" between you and your opponent.

Drop pods cannot drop on the first turn, to my knowledge. They're held in reserve, so come in on the second turn at the earliest. Likely, your opponent will not get everything in the first turn they're available, so that means you get to concentrate your firepower (and being Tau you have a lot of it) on the bits that come in. And again, unless something has drastically changed, there's no charging out of drop pods, not even for Vanguard.

Yes, the new Vanguard, especially with Shrike giving them Fleet, is nasty. But that assumes that they DS right where the player wants them, and his dice are good enough on Run moves and difficult terrain charges to actually reach you - and that they don't scatter poorly and die due to mishap tables, or lose members of their squad from landing in difficult terrain.

Running terminators have existed in this edition for a while now. They now have a 3++ invulnerable save; that's nice. Weight of fire will still drop them as it did before - one in every 6 saves will fail, and the more dice they roll the better the chances of them failing multiple saves, statistically.

Tau can make use of smaller expendable squads to blunt charges and moves - this is what those drones are meant for. It's simple defense against deepstrike - cluster your models so they can't drop in your lines, and put drones or kroot in front so that they're the only things that can be charged. They'll die/flee in a turn of combat, and now those expensive Vanguard are standing in front of your lines in rapid fire range, and they're no tougher than any other marine. You don't hear about that often with Marines because Marines are not Tau, and don't drop as easily in combat - but some people do play with expendable squads, especially against even nastier droppers like Daemons.

Lastly, having problems with assaults on your Fire Warriors? Put them in Devilfish that move 12" a turn - your opponents can't shoot the FW, and hit the devilfish on 6s in combat. With disruption pods, they're getting 4+ cover, even in the open. Problem solved.

Okay, look, here's the problem Astalado's running into.

Shrike armies can fleet. Every infantry model. Fleet. If you're playing against Shrike, you are probably staring at 30 jump pack assault marines on deployment.

There are 3 types of standard deployment.

1. Table Quarters: max distance you can set up away from opponent is 30-36". However, this puts your back flush against the short edge. Against Outflankers, it is almost guaranteed you will have guys assaulting multiple squads on turn 2. If you try to spread your deployment out, you will be attacked by the 30 assault marines.

2. Table Halves: Regardless of where you set up, it is virtually impossible to be out of assault range from Shrike on Turn 1. Even if you make a straight line of guys on the back table edge, Shrike has to roll a 5 to be able to assault. If you deploy as few as 4" off your own back edge, it's a 5/6 chance that Shrike will be on top of you. Because this scenario is usually accompanied by Night Fighting rules, odds are very good that you won't be able to actually shoot him before he's on top of you.

3. 12" deployment: Marines deploy 12" forward, move 15" a turn, are assaulting you on Turn 2. Likewise Shrike can come off the board edge. Since these are jump marines we're talking about, that's an effective assault range of 19-24". Again, it is virtually impossible to avoid both the Turn 2 30 marine assault and Shrike's incredible threat radius.

No matter how you slice it, the only thing Tau can do is kill about 20 marines in one turn of shooting to even stand a chance of surviving. Keeping in mind here that Shrike, an Honor Guard, and 3 assault squads cost about 1000 pts., there's going to be roughly the same amount of killing power rolling up behind their jetpack assault that could easily be assaulting on Turn 3.

My friend Tzeentchling... I thank you for your information about dawn of war .


If you do that and line them against the back edge you still have to worry about flankers with bikes and there 2 foot assault.

In the new codex I have read about the Drop pod assault rules. you may drp half of your drop pods in the first turn. it is to combat the new demeon armies.
Why not drop pod on units.. Drop pod drops and moves my units so it can land.. Why not drop on the unit. Who cares what it dev. It will land no matter what!

And yes we double checked it Vanguard can assault out of they have a new skill call something heroic... they may not run but can assault out of pods

Terms in the beloved new Shrike army can 18-24 inch assault .. welcome to fleet.

But using units as expendable, in the mission where kill points are important. Why put units on the board that will give them an advantage. they might have 7 units and i would have 6 in just expendable units on the board. if I kill half there army I might get 3-4 kill points. all they have to do is eat 3-4 expendable units and kill one tank and win. Not a very good idea. Plus using expendable units infront give the enemy cover saves! Yeah makes them even harder to kill.

Sure putting them in a Tank will protect them. But I still have to get them out to take objectives. and when a tank blows. they squads get smaller. Maybe a good tatic but still not good enough to make them able to hold there own in a tournement level games.


Sorry I really am a bad typer. Had to edit.



Or god if you play the salamanders. where all melta, and flame weapons are twin link... no tanks are safe.

Actually, no, drop pods don't move your units. Instead, they scatter by the minimum amount to avoid a deep-strike mishap by landing on your models. Note they can still scatter off the board. Unless of course the new codex changes this - I haven't seen it yet, so I dunno.

From what I heard, Vanguard could only perform Heroic Intervention if they had jump packs. In a drop pod, they have no packs. Again, I don't have the codex, so I dunno. My advice against deep strikers, particularly charging deep strikers, still stands.

As for kill points, yes, tau have problems - but they had problems anyway. It's one of those things - more units to contest objectives = more kill points. Whether this can be minimized somehow, I don't know.

Actually, they don't have to get out of the devilfish at all to take objectives. Measurements are made from the hull of the vehicle for units inside. Are they invulnerable? No, but their life expectancy is increased.

I agree that the new marine Codex gives a lot of armies serious problems. Outflanking bikers, deepstriking assault squads, (fleet terminators don't really seem like that much of an issue, really), drop pods, and so on. But again, taking all these units will mean there's less stuff on the board.

As for how to beat everything, well, who knows yet (except maybe Stelek )? The codex isn't even officially out yet, let alone has anyone had any chance to practice it or play against it in any serious amount. It'll take some time to get used to it and figure out how to beat them. Same thing happened with Daemons - they won a bunch of games in the beginning because no one really knew how to play against them. Now, against experienced players, they're no biggie.

What I have learned here makes my necrons amazingly worried. Fleeting Terminators that drop pod assault ontop of you? Not cool. However it is definitely not impossible to win with Tau. This is 40k, its never impossible. Obscured hammerheads are amazing now. crisis suits always have been. with the new consolidation rules, I would suggested speed bump squads as alot of people have been saying. Also, even terminators will die to torrent of fire. Just keep playing, there is always a way to win.

Speed bump squads don't work against jump infantry. They go right over them and leap into the 2-3 squads behind them.

Obscured Hammerheads are amazingly good at range, however Cruising Speed doesn't let the main gun fire and, if I recall correctly, disruption pods are only good beyond 6". Assault troops with meltaguns are going to be flying right along side and zapping it with impunity.

sourclams wrote:Speed bump squads don't work against jump infantry. They go right over them and leap into the 2-3 squads behind them.

Obscured Hammerheads are amazingly good at range, however Cruising Speed doesn't let the main gun fire and, if I recall correctly, disruption pods are only good beyond 6". Assault troops with meltaguns are going to be flying right along side and zapping it with impunity.

Cruising Speed is 12", yeah? Give your HH a Multi-Tracker, it can go 12" and still shoot the Railgun. Awesome? Yes.

Also, Dpods work up to 12" away. So as long as you are 12" away, the 4+ cover is mine!

Astalado wrote:Hello,

I am trying to figure out a way to make my favorite army able to even go to tournements. I would love anybodys ideas on how this can be done. Does anybody have any ideas

Astalado

It would be very tough...

I would try out flanking kroot squads with hounds. They are decent. If you are lucky enough to place objectives, you can put them as close to the edges as you can, and do late game objective grabs/denies.

Drop Pods? Leave your whole army in Reserve. Let them drop half in the first turn and you can react. Pray you go second. Castle formations do not work.

Three Hammerheads every time. Try to skip any unit with a Ld stat. Impossible I know, but that basically means no broadsides.

FW's in a fish are hit and miss. Warfish are to slow. If I bring them, I bring them as cheap as possible.

The rest Fireknives.

Good luck though. Tau's lousy leadership, TLOS, Wound allocation, and outflank really hurt.

(Apologies in advance for caps)

NOTHING CAN ASSAULT OUT OF A DROP POD.

Get it? Got it? Good.

The only squad that can assault after any form of Deep Strike is Vanguard. Their Heroic Intervention rule allows this. Heroic Intervention specifically says it only works if they have jump packs. They only have the option of taking a pod if they don't take jump packs.

Fleet doesn't let you assault out of a pod, it just removes the restriction of not being able to assault after running; the pod restriction on assault is still in place. See the YMTC threads on daemons with fleet assaulting. Same thing.