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Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







I can see this causing people trouble as they remake their armys but you've gained some things as well ...

...all your suits are jet packs (ok not broad sided) no need to buy that Advance stabilisation sytem you're now Relentless for free so can happly move and shoot rapid and heavy weapons at max range and assault (why you'd assault i don't know)
...Kroot can out flank as well and they can be a very large unit ... imagine a 20 kroot 12 hounds and 3 Riders coming in next to your unit make you think twice (282p ... i don't see the need for a shaper)...
... marker lights can reduce a cover save...
... marker lights can reduce some ones LD against pinning (haven't seen the new SM codex yet but my guess is those fleeting terminators aren't fearless so just pin them each turn)...
... if you have a multi-tracker (10p bargin) you can tank charge 12" hitting and causing a unit to fall back ... if not deploy your drones in the way of the unit and get the passengers out (you've side doors as well) and rapid fire with the drones, the burst cannon and you're 12 fire warriors ... i count 29 strenth 5 shots there (2 causing pinning) even SM will take a good few wounds ... if the drones are in the right place he'll not be able to get round them and into assualt (or he'll just shoot n charge them letting your DF and FW run for it)
... also i see the Sky Ray being usefull with its 2 Networked marker lights ...
... sniper drones = long ranged pinning hell at 80p S:6 AP3 (just a shame they count as the unit they're with or they'ed be jet pack and cound move and shoot)...
... drone controller lets you take 2 drones and can also be taken as hardwired ... that could be 12 marker light drone in a HQ unit (oh and they can move and fire thank you relentless)...
I'm sure theres more but i think that'll do

>Final edit< reading the replys i've missed a few things ... sorry about that, i haven't read the codex in a while.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2008/09/11 09:53:18


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Agent Provocateur




Missouri, USA

Tri wrote:I can see this causing people trouble as they remake their armys but you've gained some things as well ...

...all your suits are jet packs (ok not broad sided) no need to buy that Advance stabilisation sytem you're now Relentless for free so can happly move and shoot rapid and heavy weapons at max range and assault (why you'd assault i don't know)
...Kroot can out flank as well and they can be a very large unit ... imagine a 20 kroot 12 hounds and 3 Riders coming in next to your unit make you think twice (282p ... i don't see the need for a shaper)...


Broadsides aren't Jet Pack Infantry and they're the only ones who took ASS, they still need it. You can't out flank with Krootox since they cause the kroot to lose infiltrate, you CAN load two of them and 10 kroot into a Devilfish though, which is amusing.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

Tri wrote:I can see this causing people trouble as they remake their armys but you've gained some things as well ...

...all your suits are jet packs (ok not broad sided) no need to buy that Advance stabilisation sytem you're now Relentless for free so can happly move and shoot rapid and heavy weapons at max range and assault (why you'd assault i don't know)
...Kroot can out flank as well and they can be a very large unit ... imagine a 20 kroot 12 hounds and 3 Riders coming in next to your unit make you think twice (282p ... i don't see the need for a shaper)...
... marker lights can reduce a cover save...
... marker lights can reduce some ones LD against pinning (haven't seen the new SM codex yet but my guess is those fleeting terminators aren't fearless so just pin them each turn)...
... if you have a multi-tracker (10p bargin) you can tank charge 12" hitting and causing a unit to fall back ... if not deploy your drones in the way of the unit and get the passengers out (you've side doors as well) and rapid fire with the drones, the burst cannon and you're 12 fire warriors ... i count 29 strenth 5 shots there (2 causing pinning) even SM will take a good few wounds ... if the drones are in the right place he'll not be able to get round them and into assualt (or he'll just shoot n charge them letting your DF and FW run for it)
... also i see the Sky Ray being usefull with its 2 Networked marker lights ...
... sniper drones = long ranged pinning hell at 80p S:6 AP3 (just a shame they count as the unit they're with or they'ed be jet pack and cound move and shoot)...
... drone controller lets you take 2 drones and can also be taken as hardwired ... that could be 12 marker light drone in a HQ unit (oh and they can move and fire thank you relentless)...
I'm sure theres more but i think that'll do


Just clearing up some misconceptions.

1 - Suits never took ASS as they can't take any heavy weapons there was no need for them. All the Tau VX8 weapons systems are rapid fire or assault. Their own built in suit rules allowed for them to fire rapid fire weapons at max range even when moving. Broadsides (which don't have jet packs) will still need ASS if they want to move and shoot the railgun or SMS system. They can take plasma rifles for 10 points though so I guess thats an option for moving and shooting without ASS.

2 - If you take a Krootox rider you loose infiltrate ability. Thus no outflank.

3-4 Markerlights are good. But they don't do anything better in 5th ed than they did in 4th ed. Its just there are more cover saves running around that makes them seem more useful. However the one good thing about the pinning issue is that if the SM player does break up into combat squads, suddenly one squad is stuck at LD8 as they both can't share the Sargents LD bonus. But pinning is never a sure thing, you have to kill a terminator to force the check and since it will always get its 2+ save vs any of the weapons Tau have that cause pinning its going to be hard just to force the LD check in the first place regardless of what the LD has been reduced to.

5 - Tank shock is not a run for the hills maneuver. If the enemy passes their check they only have to move the guys who would have gotten run over the minimum amount of space to let the tank pass. Now you cannot deploy your firewarriors or the attached drones (free VP thanks) within one inch of the enemy. You don't really want to unload your firewarriors on the other side of the tank as some may not have LOS. Thus it will be real hard to keep the enemy from getting a charge on the next turn. Also 29 shots sounds impressive. But that really depends on what your shooting at. Its about 3 dead marines. Depending on starting strength of the squad its barely a dent. At least its enough to force a LD check for 25% casualties

6- skipping a few.

7 - Marker light drones are 30 points each. Your unit of 12 is 360 points. If you really want to spend a crap ton of points on a bunch of T3 4+Sv models I wont stop you. Sad part is, its still only 6 markerlight hits on a single unit each turn.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Australia

Give crisis suits shield drones. There is no longer enough LOS blocking terrain for them, shield drones give them a lot more freedom.

109/20/22 w/d/l
Tournament: 25/5/5 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Pretty simple solution to a lot of these issues -

Play to the scenarios. In most missions, if you're encountering an enemy that can be on top of you immediately (which you will know thanks to the 5th edition full disclosure rules), keep your army off the board. Unlike any other edition of WH40k I've played, you can generally start with your entire army off the board, if you so choose. They can't first turn assault if you're not on the board.

Seize the initiative, take advantage of the changes to the deployment options of this edition. Heck, my standard mounted Space Marine force usually stays off the board entirely and comes in as a Rhino convoy to avoid having the transports shot out from underneath 'em in the early turns.
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Essen, Ruhr

Astalado wrote: Then the other may set up 18 inches away from you... *thinks for a second* thats charge range!


First of all, that's maximum charge range, not an automatic contact. You need to roll a '6' and there must not be any terrain slowing you down. Secondly, my (German) rule book states that you set up over 18" apart.

If they go first, you can keep everything in reserve. What's he going to do then? Bring it in and shoot the living daylights out of the offenders at point blank range. Btw, you can outflank and deep strike as well.

Kroot or FW are not supposed ot hold up to an assault. They are there to give your real units another chance to shoot. Hey, something is going to die. Drop pods (with FotA Libby) have always been the bane of (static) Tau - another reason why using a mechanized list was and is a good idea.

"Whenever the literary German dives into a sentence, that is the last you are going to see of him till he emerges on the other side of the Atlantic with his verb in his mouth." S. L. Clemens

All hail Ollanius Pius! 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Gaunts are beasts, and able to charge 19-24". If nids set up first, it's all but guaranteed they'll be able to charge you.
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Australia

Some people are saying kroot are really bad now, not particularly in this thread but elsewhere too.

I don't understand the logic. They were fantastic in 4th edition. In 5th edition cover saves are more widely available and are better. So kroot are more resilient. And kroot can now run, so are faster. And kroot still capture objectives.

Really, what's the deal? They get strictly better and people say they're worse?

109/20/22 w/d/l
Tournament: 25/5/5 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I'm not sure how the Kroot's special forest rule (see through over 6 inches of area terrain) works -- if at all -- in 5e.

However, they benefit from the same factors that favour all other light armoured troops. They haven't got worse at anything.

I don't see why people say they got worse under 5e.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Los Angeles

Kroot have other special forest rules - no difficult terrain tests, and +1 to cover save. Those were the big ones anyway. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've shot through more than 6" of forest.

The main reason I can think of that Kroot got worse is that large squads of them lose close combat any time they don't completely obliterate their opponent, and this is not good with the new rules. Sure with enough hounds you're testing to fall back at I5, but that isn't that great, especially when you fall back every single fight. Before, their large numbers would help keep their modifiers down (rarely outnumbered). Now they test on LD2 after every fight, even if all that's left is a single space marine. Lets just say I've never considered a shaper, because LD8 wouldn't help them anyway they lose every combat so badly.

That being said, I'm still playing around with two 18kroot/12 hound squads and they're not bad in 5th, there are a lot of units they just completely annihilate if they get the charge off a board edge (90 WS4 str4 attacks isn't so bad).


'12 Tournament Record: 98-0-0 
   
Made in us
Imperial Agent Provocateur




Missouri, USA

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not sure how the Kroot's special forest rule (see through over 6 inches of area terrain) works -- if at all -- in 5e.


It doesn't, this is clarified in the Tau Empire FAQ. They do still get +1 cover save and no difficult terrain tests in forests of course.
   
Made in kr
Roarin' Runtherd




South Korea

Astalado,

Quite the dillema.

Animist had some good suggestions.

But I think the best answer is to go back to the start of the thread and ask if there is any way for Tau to viable in a tournament?

The answer looks like a pretty solid NO! for now. The reason you are running in mental cicrcles is because you are wondering how Tau can get around these hard assed armies that drop on you.

Maybe they CAN'T!

If Tau had a more flexible codex that allowed an all crisis suit army with crisis suits for troops that would be one way.

As it stands you might want to retool your army so that it is small and mobile and does its own deepstrikes.

The rub always comes in CC though, when you get into a hand fight, your bonding knife vs Abbadons somewhat bigger knife, Jain Zar's executioner, or just about anyone!

Since standing and shooting is not viable versus dropping enemies.

Since deepstrikers can bring melta guns for armour and flamers for kroot shields.....and will have both (or their daemonic equivelants) in numbers.

You have to be as mobile as possible to go tactical.

OR.

Drop Tau, and take up a new codex for a time until Tau get their latest upgrade towards viable struggles for the greater good.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone





Kansas

Well... here we go... Like I posted earlier, I am here to tell you all what happened in my game today. We played the first mission of the hard boyz ternement today. I have to say against a good Shriek army and played well army. I WON!

Army:

HQ:
Farsight with 7 guards armed with Plasma and Fusion with Multi Link *fire all guns* Targeting array BS 4

Shas'el with one body gaurd armed same way

Elite:

Crisis Team of armed the same way

Troops:

Min Max FW Squad in fish with sm pack

Fast:

Piranah x2 with fusion guns

Heavy:

3x Broadsides with smart
What I did was to use some thing you all said. here what I did

1. He won int. and went first so I put everything in reserves. I fielded nothing.

2. I found out that it made the game very tatical. He had to waste two turns because I had nothing on the board. He also had to place Shriek in with his other units to make sure they were protected. He was at a lost what to do sense I hade nothing on the board. Assault armies need to know where to focus

3. Plasma and Fusion works wonders. each model with 2 shot at ap 2 and one at ap 1 with a multi lock does wonders, drop assault about 9 inches away to make sure you have a very good chance to hit the mark inside range.

4. A unit of farsight and his body guards are over 700pts but they do wonders. that is 16 shots of Plasma at ap 2 and 7 shots of ap 1. Marines units even with ubber character can;t stay around long, with some transports with sm launchers.

5. Farsight came in late but that was a good thing he droped by a stratigic point and cleaned it up so a fish ran in on turn five and took it.

6. the Other hq and a elite choice cleared one of he held so he only had on point.

7. the three fish never actually took the warriors out. I used it as a point grabber.

I won the game with to points to one. and two contested.

After thinking about this. The army worked well as a counter assault army and a hammer. The only problem is mass armies will give me fits, but this is the only armie I can see that can stand a chance. I thank you all for your help. I wish that this was not the army I have to use. I have to use farsight not the empire to have a chance. I love the fluf of the empire. Hell my 8000 point apoc army is painted with the gun line in ceremonial red armor and the etherial is umm *chuckles * in black armor and weild dual sabers..and my mech part of it is white on black as if they were storm troopers. I know it sound stupid but with the empire and raised in the eighties I could not stop my star wars flare. I just wish that I did not have to go to the Farsight to be able to win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/12 04:03:34


Armies owned
5th Ed:
Tau Stats: 14-2-8 Won against: :
Eldar Stats: 5-0-3 Won Against:
Space Marine:
Ork:

4th Ed:
Tau 82% Win, 5% Tie 13% Loss
Blood Angels: 70%  
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Australia

I'm taking my Tau to a tournament in 2 weeks.

There are 2 restrictions:

600 points in troops. Not allowed 3 of the same named non-troop unit.

I'm not interested in arguing over why the TO chose those restrictions. If you're interested, you only lose 5% of your score if you break a restriction, so it doesn't actually change who wins. The players that would win the tournament without restrictions are still going to win with the restrictions, the only difference is that the army lists have changed. Only people that weren't going to win the tournament anyway are going to break the restrictions, and it's less likely because they want a cheesy army and more likely they're just taking what they own or what their army fluff dictates.

Here's my list:

Shas'el - plasma rifle, missile pod, multitracker, 2 shield drones 117
Bodyguard - plasma rifle, missile pod, multitracker 72
Bodyguard - plasma rifle, missile pod, targeting array, hardwired multitracker 82

2 Crisis - twin missiles, 1 blacksun filter, 1 shield drone 104
4 Stealths - team leader, markerlight, marker drone 165

12 Fire Warriors in Devilfish - disruption pod 205
9 Fire Warriors - shas'ui, markerlight, target lock 115
7 Fire Warriors - carbines 70
10 Kroot 70
10 Kroot 70
10 Kroot 70

Hammerhead - railgun, gun drones, disruption pod 165
2 Broadsides - ASS, team leader, 2 shield drones 195

1500 points

It's a tournament so it's obviously using the victory point rules on page 300. It's not using kill points in any of the missions.

The victory point rules favor odd numbers. If you kill exactly half (models matter, wounds don't), they get half points. So I went into a lot of effort to make my crisis suits and stealths odd numbers.

The TO has ruled that my Shas'el is not an independent character. This is RAW.

I also dropped the targeting array from the bodyguard to increase their survivability. With all 3 crisis different, it is possible for all 3 to be wounded at one time, as the whole models rule only applies for models in an identical group of more than 1.

I chose 9 fire warriors with the markerlight instead of 6 so I have to lose 3 to make a check. No other reason really.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2008/09/12 04:42:54


109/20/22 w/d/l
Tournament: 25/5/5 
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Essen, Ruhr

sourclams wrote:Gaunts are beasts, and able to charge 19-24". If nids set up first, it's all but guaranteed they'll be able to charge you.


Astalado was talking about marines who usually do not field gaunts. I thought he was referring to the 18" Terminator charge. Even if we look at gaunts, such a charge doesn't mean no shots will be fired. It means both players exchange one unit for another. It's IMO no worse than someone getting the first shot. Something's going to die if Tau go first, too.

Orc Town Grot wrote:
Quite the dillema.

But I think the best answer is to go back to the start of the thread and ask if there is any way for Tau to viable in a tournament?

The answer looks like a pretty solid NO! for now. The reason you are running in mental cicrcles is because you are wondering how Tau can get around these hard assed armies that drop on you.

As it stands you might want to retool your army so that it is small and mobile and does its own deepstrikes.

The rub always comes in CC

Since standing and shooting is not viable versus dropping enemies.

Since deepstrikers can bring melta guns for armour and flamers for kroot shields....


I'm sorry but what point exactly am I missing? ALL of those points were just as valid in 4th when Tau were a top tier army: Everyone always defeated Tau in CC. No change. Armies who can drop/DS can do it now and could do it then. No change. The same armies could take meltas and flamers. No change. Gunline Tau weren't the most competetive build in 4th. No change. Mobility was key and is viable now. Again no change.

Why again should Tau not work in tournaments when they did work in 4th and nothing has changed?

Ninja edit: There has been one noticeable change indeed - no consolidation into fresh units. That's a major boon for Tau, mobile, Farsight, or gunline.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/12 08:48:55


"Whenever the literary German dives into a sentence, that is the last you are going to see of him till he emerges on the other side of the Atlantic with his verb in his mouth." S. L. Clemens

All hail Ollanius Pius! 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA


I think the reports of Tau's demise in in v5 tournaments has been greatly exaggerated.

Can Tau win a 5th edition tournament? Absolutely. Will it require more player skill and some favorable match-ups compared to other armies out there? Definitely.

The reason for this is that I think Tau can fairly easily score a 'minor' win, it is rather more difficult (though not impossible) for them to get the maximum amount of points in the current GT scoring system for a number of reasons I'll discuss below.

For the Las Vegas GT, I ended up going 3-2 with the Tau, with one of those "wins" being a Kill Point draw that I won on VPs, one 'minor' loss and one major loss. I faced two of the Toledo players, with my first game going against the Vegas champ from last year Mike (not going to try to butcher his last name). My minor loss was against Greg Sparks who ended up doing pretty well overall in the tournament (no surprise) and my major loss was against a 189 model drop Guard army who also won the roll to force me to go first (and happened to unfortunately be a seize ground mission).

I still consider myself a Tau noob, having only played a little more than a dozen games with the army. So even though I played some quality opponents and armies I know that there are several tactical errors I made in many of my games that either cost me the win (with Greg) or cost me a bigger win. Its only with the drop IG game that I really feel like I had almost no control of the outcome of that game.


Before I go into more detail, I have to say that it is pretty ludicrous to discuss "all v5 tournaments" because not all tournaments are created equal. How a tournament sets its mission objectives and battle point scoring can radically alter an army's ability to perform successfully.

But let's just focus on the GT scoring for this year that essentially uses the rulebook missions, heavily rewards domination for mission objectives and yet also rewards close victories.

Every mission also has 3 bonus points that are earned by accomplishing a couple of secondary objectives like killing the Enemy Commander, having more units alive at the end of the game, killing the opponent's highest point unit, etc.

To get the maximum amount of points for each game you obviously need to accomplish these secondary objectives as well as getting a major victory, which is done by dominating the core mission objectives.

Full points in Annihilation is accomplished by scoring more than double the Kill Points your opponent does.
Full points in Capture & Control is accomplished by securing both objectives on the table.
Full points in Seize Ground is to control more than two of the table objectives (IIRC) than your opponent does.


In Annihilation while Tau do tend to have small vulnerable units, they also have really durable vehicles and if they have any mounted units they can keep them inside their Devilfish for most of the game to prevent them being killed. I generally feel like Tau can score minor wins in Annihilation pretty easily if they have a semi-mechanized army and there are some woods on the table for their Kroot to hide in. Where Tau struggle in annihilation is the fact that they lack the ability to go hunt down any enemy units that decide to hide out the game in order to deny VPs, although a healthy dose of Smart Missile Systems can mitigate this issue a bit.

Tau also tend to have more Kill Points available than many 'strong' Kill Point armies like big-mob Orks. That means even if you decimate the Orks you'll probably not get more than double their Kill Points unless you totally wipe them out. In conclusion I think Tau can win most Annihilation games against most armies but they will often struggle to reach the 'double' KP mark.

In my LVGT games, I played a Space Wolf player in my second game and I did manage to double his Kill Points and score a major win. In my final game, I played an Ork player in Dawn of War who got the first turn and had two big mobs of Stormboyz coming on from the board edge as well as two big mobs (one Shoota one Choppa) starting halfway on the table. All these mobs were threatening from turn 2 onwards so it was a real challenge to wittle him down and end tying him in Kill Points. I was two Stormboyz away from wiping out one more unit and securing a win (although I did still win on Victory Points).


Capture & Control is the hardest mission for Tau to win big because it is nearly impossible for them to go out and capture your opponent's objective unless they make a major mistake or you wipe them out completely. That means you essentially have to play for the mission objective draw and win on Victory Points. Against most opponents it should be fairly routine to hold your objective and blow away whatever the enemy sends your way. Of course, this kind of VP 'win' is exactly what makes it challenging to win the overall tournament with a Tau army.

At the LVGT, my one C&C game was against Greg Sparks and his CSM army. He decided to make me go first and he held his entire army in reserve, outflanking with his two Chosen units in Rhinos to come get my objective. I made some horrible deployment mistakes and when the game ended on turn 5 (only 3 real turns of the game) I wasn't in the proper position to stop him from contesting my objective. If I had been in position from the start, I think I could have dispatched his flankers and then won the game on VPs.


Seize Ground can definitely be won by the Tau most of the time. Their general mobility and the ability to keep their scoring units safe inside a transport (or in a forest for Kroot) is a powerful tool. Although again, it is hard to get the full victory as capturing objectives near the opponent's board edge can be challenging unless the area of the board is completely cleared.

In my first game against Mike's dual-lash Chaos army, I was able to squeak out very lucky win when his last squad (that was holding two objectives) failed its Ld10 morale check and run away. With that said, I don't think I played very well to maximize my ability to win the game and I could have done a much better job capturing what objectives were left and made a play to contest the objectives he had. Again, I think that comes back to my inexperience with Tau that leads me to play a bit passive at times. I think if I had played better I could have ensured a victory (or at least an objective tie) regardless of whether he passed that morale check or not.

My other Seize Ground was against the drop Guard army and like I've said several times, I really don't think I ever had a chance. *Perhaps* if I had gotten to go second I could have kept everything off the table and forced him to drop some units onto the table for me to destroy, but even then it would have been a tough game. As it happened, he dropped dozens of units on the second turn and only had *one* bad scatter which caused one of his Sentinels to be deployed by me. All the crucial elements in his army either landed on target or scattered a really favorable direction including both of his dual flamer special weapon units that promptly cooked two of my Kroot units out of a forest in one round.

In the end I was very pleased to have finished the game with any models left (3 Pathfinders and an immobilized Hammerhead), I considered that a moral victory.


If I hadn't faced an army that could totally decimate me with no chance, If I hadn't made so many tactical mistakes and if I had focused a bit more on both the main objectives and the secondary objectives I really feel as though I could have scored quite a few extra battle points, despite facing some really good opponents with pretty solid armies. Overall that makes me easily satisfied enough to bring the army back to battle again in future tournaments and try to improve my performance.


So what does a Tau army have going for it in v5?


1) It's vehicles are nearly indestructible from enemy shooting. Besides the IG game, I lost only a single vehicle to shooting all tournament. The new damage table plus the save from disruption pods makes them absolute damage soaks. That means the enemy has to try to come to you in order to take your vehicles out in close combat. Which is where you spring your Firewarrior squads out of their vehicles and obliterate enemy units in a hail of pulse fire.


2) Smart Missile Systems are a life-saver. Their ability to bypass intervening units/cover is amazing against hordes and against any army they are a life-saver at weeding out those last few models in an enemy unit that may try to go hide somewhere. Besides, they really allow you to keep all your vehicles in one area of the board without worrying too much about them blocking LOS to each other. You can create a vehicle "junkyard" and still pour shots anywhere you need them within 24".


3) Battlesuits soak up some a lot of firepower. By equipping your suits differently and giving them shield drones, Battlesuit units are much, much more durable than they used to be when they actually take fire. In my army, I included a Commander in the unit with the stimulant injector (feel no pain) and always dumped the extra wounds the squad took onto him so he could negate as many wounds as possible. People also complain about the inability to hide Battlesuits anymore, but the fact is, Devilfish/Hammerheads provide a perfect place to hide your suits behind to perform JSJ manuevers, so there really isn't any reason your suits should be shot unless you get severly outflanked or you just have to get your suits somewhere you aren't moving a vehicle.


4) Small units of Kroot are fantastic. Every GT table has a few forests, and that means Kroot are a must now for your Tau armies. Their pathetic Ld makes them a lock to run when they lose combat (and sometimes when they take shooting morale checks) so that means it is essential to keep their points cost low per unit (I took 3 squds of 10).

Kroot give you so many options, including outflanking and infiltrate and when you do infiltrate them into a forest you know they'll be a pain to dislodge unless your opponent has template weapons and/or an assault unit with frag grenades in the vicinity. You can keep them in the forest shooting away and just wait to be charged with their 2 Attacks meaning that when they go down they'll usually take some opponents with them.

And the fact that they *do* run when beaten in combat means you rarely then have a situation where you don't have a target to shoot at. All-in-all Kroot were just amazingly versatile and I just wish I could have included a 4th squad of 10 but I had to drop it out to take some Pathfinders.


5) Airbursting Fragmentation Projector and Hammerhead Railgun submunition shots. Fantastic against hordes. I killed absolute droves of Orks with these weapons (and the AFP ignores cover saves too!) and if I had gotten to go first in that mission I think I would have completely decimated the Ork player instead of tying on Kill Points as I ended up doing.



Of course the Tau also have some serious disadvantages:


1) Morale. The bane of Tau in 5th edition, morale can make Tau very tricky to play although I still wouldn't sink to taking an Ethereal. You can mitigate some of this by keeping your Firewarriors in their Devilfish as long as possible but you're still going to have some games where your Crisis suits, Broadsides, Kroot and Pathfinders all high-tale it and you just have to live with that fact.

Both my Crisis suit teams and my Broadsides all had bonding just because once you take drones it is pretty easy to get under the 50% mark and I always want those units to have a chance to regroup.


2) Tau vehicles are very vulnerable to CC. You definitely can help prevent them from being destroyed by keeping your distance when possible and when not possible 'springing the trap' by dumping out your firewarriors and trying to gun-down whatever enemy unit(s) are trying to assault you. I also think I made some mistakes by not moving my Devilfish over 6" in some cases where I was trying to eek out a few extra shots when I should have realized that moving more than 6" makes a Devilfish pretty hard to hit in CC. All it takes is for the Powerfist model to miss with his attacks and you stand a really good chance of keeping your vehicle alive for another turn as all the S4 attacks from the regular guys are only going to glance your vehicle at best.


3) Tau just lack that really nasty, hard-as-nails expensive unit that can soak a bunch of fire and wipe out enemies in CC and you really need a unit like that in a tournament to 'go get' your opponent's objective or to kill your opponent's commander/most expensive unit, etc. The lack of this unit really makes the Tau (at least how I play them) into an army that reacts to the opponent as opposed to dictating the game.

There may be some pretty wicked combos out there to turn Tau into a more offensive army, but my mind keeps gravitating towards the more reactionary tactics of shoot, shoot, shoot and then spring the trap.



In the end, I would never judge Tau based on a few tournaments. If a Tau player had managed to win first place would that automatically mean they are a great v5 tournament army? Of course not.

Any given tournament is simply a collection of players matched up against particular opponents playing particular missions. Only time will tell how Tau as an army perform and even then there is always the opportunity for a great player and a great list to have the right match-ups to win a tournament.

So I say keep your heads high and keep fighting. I know I will.



I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Los Angeles, CA


Oh and my list was:


HQ (120 points)
  • Shas’el (50) plasma rifle (20) airbursting fragmentation projector (20) targeting array (10) hard-wired multi-tracker (5) hard-wired target lock (5) stimulant injector (10) -- 120 points



  • ELITES (332 points)
  • Yellow crisis team leader (30) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) hard-wired drone controller w/ x2 shield drones (30) bonding knife (5) hard-wired multi-tracker (5). Yellow crisis suit (25) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) multi-tracker (5) -- 164 points

  • Red crisis team leader (30) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) flamer (4) hard-wired multi-tracker (5) hard-wired drone controller w/ x2 shield drones (30) bonding knife (5). Red crisis suit (25) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) multi-tracker (5) -- 168 points



  • TROOPS (560 points)
  • x12 Red firewarriors (120) -- 120 points
    Red devilfish (80) smart missile system (20) disruption pods (5) targeting array (5) multi-tracker (10) -- 120 points

  • x11 Yellow firewarriors (110) -- 110 points

  • x10 Yellow kroot (70) -- 70 points

  • x10 Red kroot (70) -- 70 points

  • x10 Green kroot (70) -- 70 points



  • FAST ATTACK (192 points)
  • x6 Yellow Pathfinders (72) -- 72 points
    Yellow devilfish (80) smart missile system (20) disruption pods (5) targeting array (5) multi-tracker (10) -- 120 points



  • HEAVY SUPPORT (545 points)
  • Grey hammerhead (90) railgun (50) smart missile system (20) disruption pod (5) multi-tracker (10) target lock (5)-- 180 points

  • Grey hammerhead (90) railgun (50) smart missile system (20) disruption pod (5) multi-tracker (10) target lock (5)-- 180 points

  • Yellow broadside team leader (75) advanced stabilization system (10) hard-wired drone controller w/ shield drone (15) bonding knife (5). Yellow broadside (70) advanced stabilization system (10) -- 185 points



  • TOTAL 1,749 POINTS



    I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
    yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
    yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
    yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
    Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
       
    Made in us
    Imperial Agent Provocateur




    Missouri, USA

    yakface wrote:1) Morale. The bane of Tau in 5th edition, morale can make Tau very tricky to play although I still wouldn't sink to taking an Ethereal. You can mitigate some of this by keeping your Firewarriors in their Devilfish as long as possible but you're still going to have some games where your Crisis suits, Broadsides, Kroot and Pathfinders all high-tale it and you just have to live with that fact.

    Both my Crisis suit teams and my Broadsides all had bonding just because once you take drones it is pretty easy to get under the 50% mark and I always want those units to have a chance to regroup.


    Is this enough of a problem that it might be worth considering Shadowsun for an 18" range Ld10 bubble?
       
    Made in jp
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    Anti-piracy Officer






    Somewhere in south-central England.

    It's possible to build a pretty hardcore shooty CC unit with Farsight and his retinue, though you have to give up a lot of other good stuff.

    Tau were always recognised as a tricky army to run in 4e. It was always known to be difficult to get major wins, for the reason that it is harder to shoot enemy units to death than to melee them to death.

    I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

    We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
       
    Made in au
    Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




    Australia

    I often got maximum victory points with my tau at tournaments.

    But the lists are different here. I use a weaker list against weaker lists.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/12 12:25:37


    109/20/22 w/d/l
    Tournament: 25/5/5 
       
    Made in us
    Sinewy Scourge





    Bothell, WA

    Wow thanks Yakface! That was very good info to have.

    Salamander Marines 65-12-13
    Dark Eldar Wych Cult 4-1-0
    Dark Eldar Kabal 36-10-4
    2010 Indy GT Tournament Record: 11-6-3
    Golden Ticket Winner with Dark Eldar
    Timmah wrote:Best way to use lysander:
    Set in your storage bin, pick up vulkan model, place in list.
     
       
    Made in jp
    [MOD]
    Anti-piracy Officer






    Somewhere in south-central England.

    onlainari wrote:I often got maximum victory points with my tau at tournaments.

    But the lists are different here. I use a weaker list against weaker lists.


    I'm thinking of UKGTs.

    In the UK there is no Comp score so people take as hard a list as they want. Tau have as far -- as I know never placed first -- though they have often placed reasonably high in the rankings.

    I've never been to a tournament. I'm just going from the results and what top Tau players say.

    In any case, Assault isstronger than shooting because of various factors built into the game's structure.

    My gut feeling is that because Tau are a tricky army, better tacticians take them (as with DE) and skill has a way of paying off. (I am sure all Tau players would agree )

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/09/12 20:24:23


    I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

    We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
       
    Made in us
    Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





    Los Angeles

    Yakface's analysis is pretty spot on. I only have one disagreement - while I absolutely hate the capture and control mission, I think it is winnable. You'll rarely own both objectives, but you can definitely own yours and contest the other. A couple of empty Devilfish with flechettes and maybe a Piranha or two can easily put themselves in position to tank shock/contest your opponents point, with the rest of your army shooting the enemy off of yours. It's not pretty, and feels completely ridiculous, but it's workable I think.

    I just wish I didn't feel forced to buy SMS for the devilfish just because of the KPs that the drones give up. They tend to move over 6" each turn when I play with them.


    '12 Tournament Record: 98-0-0 
       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    Kilkrazy wrote:

    In the UK there is no Comp score so people take as hard a list as they want. Tau have as far -- as I know never placed first -- though they have often placed reasonably high in the rankings.



    Tau are current GT champions.

    The Tau player, Israel, is reputedly frighteningly good. He also took first in one of the Heats I believe.

    Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
     
       
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    Been Around the Block



    Boston, MA

    yakface wrote:
    Oh and my list was:


    It's like deja vu all over again. Holy cow.

    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable from - self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson 
       
    Made in us
    Slippery Scout Biker




    I also played Tau at the LVGT and I went 2-3 with a couple of those losses coming very close in the end and I am the epitome of a noob with Tau. I had only played 4 games TOTAL with them before the GT. You can check out my battle reports in that part of the forums.

    The key in 5th is deployment, there is no one size fits all deployment anymore.

    Also 40K is open list at all real tournaments, so you will know what your enemy has before you deploy.

    If you have the choice you almost always want to go second so that you can react to your opponents deployment (something that I unfortunately learned later in the GT).

    Kroot are awesome, a unit of 16-18 total with a mix of hounds and kroot is incredibly versatile and hardy in 5th. If your enemy is an outflanking army 18 can block an entire short board edge, if their entire army has outflanked, you line each short board edge with a unit and it is an auto massacre as they have nowhere to arrive. Kroot also take no difficult to move through forest so if you are using them as a counter attack unit their initiative isn't reduced, I5 hounds go before most things, and you are taking away your enemies charge bonus, lots of good things happen when you can kill a couple of guys before they can even attack. Big packs of Kroot also can decimate enemy vehicles with rear armor 12. Ask Blackmoor and Janthkin what happens when outflanking kroot hit stationary vehicles. 2 useless railheads for the cost of 10 kroot and 7 hounds.

    In a spearhead mission, if they only have a few outflankers you deploy one unit along your short board edge and voila there are not any enemies coming in behind you. Then the opposing army has to walk a long way, thus your firepower is still valuable.

    Piranhas with flechette dischargers are pretty good. They are armor 11 so most small arms simply bounce which means they have to wast heavier firepower to kill them instead of your railheads. Also they can pump out a lot of fire with burst cannons + drones or threaten mech armies with several meltas, hello target lock killing multiple vehicles from 1 squadron. Use these to limit your opponent's movement, sure you may lose them, but if it keeps their army only moving 1" for a turn then your shooting can have way more effect. Plus when these guys do get assaulted the flechettes wound EVERYTHING on a 4+ that means with a squadron you can put out a lot of hate before taking any damage, which if you moved fast they only hit on a 6 so it can be fairly limited.

    Putting minimum size firewarrior squads inside a devilfish is really good for objective grabbing. They are a tough nut to crack with dpods and in a pinch 12 shots can make a dent in a lot of things.

    Sniper drones are amazing, a BS4 markerlight is nothing to scoff at plus anything the actual sniper rifles do is a great bonus. Plus you use these to guarantee cover to the suits or firewarriors behind them. This is especially good if your crisis teams jsj over the snipers. A couple of these units can make it awful difficult to charge the real meat of your army if deployed correctly. And remember you can leave your opponent hanging in the wind even if they only kill one thing. You remove the spotter and the drones die...now the enemy shouldn't have any cover and he is standing right in front of a lot of deadly stuff.

    In 5th edition it seems like most army that want to win need to either 1)ignore the enemies cover, 2)provide their own cover, or 3)shoot enough that cover doesn't really matter. With stealth, Tau's basic shooting ability, and markerlights ANY of those options become viable.

    Remember, just because it is different doesn't mean it is bad. The new edition simply means that you have to adjust your thinking, this is especially critical when it comes to deployment.

    Keep after it and share your discoveries with the rest of us for the greater good.

    "My humility is the quality I'm most proud of."

    "If you were this funny you'd laugh too..."

    "Suck it."

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    Fixture of Dakka






    .................................... Searching for Iscandar

    You probably meant rear armor 10.

    Rest of the stuff sounds good.

       
    Made in us
    Focused Fire Warrior




    Gresham, OR

    Astalado wrote:HQ:
    Farsight with 7 guards armed with Plasma and Fusion with Multi Link *fire all guns* Targeting array BS 4


    Perhaps I'm missing something but I was rereading some of the earlier posts and came across that ^

    How is that a possible load out? last I checked you could only have a max of 2 weapons and 1 support system or 1 weapon and 2 support systems. How I'm reading it is that you have 2 weapons and 2 support systems...If I'm reading something incorrectly please clarify for me.


    8-27-2 0-1-0 (Angry Marines)
    0-2-1 18-24-5  
       
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    Been Around the Block



    Boston, MA

    thesuperiorninja wrote:
    Astalado wrote:HQ:
    Farsight with 7 guards armed with Plasma and Fusion with Multi Link *fire all guns* Targeting array BS 4

    Perhaps I'm missing something but I was rereading some of the earlier posts and came across that ^
    How is that a possible load out? last I checked you could only have a max of 2 weapons and 1 support system or 1 weapon and 2 support systems. How I'm reading it is that you have 2 weapons and 2 support systems...If I'm reading something incorrectly please clarify for me.


    Bodyguard can take Hardwired systems from the wargear list. They can even take Special Issue gear, so your bodyguard can include the Cyclic Ion Blaster and the Airburst Frag Projector.

    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable from - self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson 
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut



    Beaver Dam, WI

    Alright some options... you have to try counterattacking....

    Infiltrating stealth suit teams can flank march. Keep them in reserve and do so... If nothing else you can break up following waves.

    Deep strike gun drones or crisis suits.

    In dawn of war with the table half deployment... if you get choice, two squads of kroot spaced 2" apart, hmmm 3" coverage per kroot means you need two squads of 12 kroot minimum. They are a speed bump... You now have all his on board army 6" from his board edge. You lose the roll? They can infiltrate so use them instead as flankers. Won't probably win any combats but what about getting a 1 turn delay on a unit of assault troops?

    Put flechette dischargers on your vehicles, let him survive your vehicles. His army is going to be relatively small so feel free to tank shock them. 3 hammerheads can make his day painful.

    Pathfinders... nice to have them on the board but they have scout move so they can be flankers. Throw a hammerhead in the way of his on rushing army.

    The name of the game is changed and you want to preserve your troop choices so think about how to do that. Maybe DO start it all in reserve. Tit for tat, if he goes first, you can have a rock hard vehicle army with flanking kroot, pathfinders and stealth suits.

    If he is real nice and separates this attack wave, tank shock, isolate one unit and unload behind your wall of devilfish and just pummel one unit. Perhaps it is time to get some warriors with the carbines out there just for the chance of a pin. Nothing like pinning an assault army within 12" of your fire warriors.

    I think the new SM codex may be more broken than all the peeing and moaning I have been listening to about the old Eldar Craftworld Codex or the Eye of Terror lists but just gotta find a way. Otherwise I will retire every xenos army and we can watch tournaments of Shrike versus Vulcan. Won't that be a fun environment for 2 or 3 years.

    By broken, I mean English rules as in not playtested or thoroughly thought about how it burns other armies.

    -Otherwise -
    Only play in rogue traders and give anyone who plays a shrike army a 1 for playing a cheezy army list.

    -Or wait -
    And mellow out when they overcompensate with a new Tau Collective codex.


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