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Rather than redoing the rules of the BA and DA codices as stand alone, my thought is that they can be accomplished by modifications to the new marine codex. A set of rules that supplement the codex instead of being stand alone.

ANGELS OF DEATH
The following Special Characters may not be taken in a Blood Angel or Dark Angel armies and are replaced by the list of special characters in their respective rule section:
Marneus Calgar, Captain Cato Sicarius, Chief Librarian Tigrus, Chaplain Cassius, Chapter Master Pedro Kantor, Captain Darnath Lysander, Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike, Forgefather Vulkan He’stan, Kor’Sarro Khan, Sergeant Telion, Brother Sergeant Chronus.

Dark Angels
Prohibited Units (the following are units that may not be taken by the Dark Angels):
Space Marine Chapter Master, Master of the Forge, Terminator Assault Squad, Ironclad Dreadnought, Vanguard Veterans, Thunderfire Cannon

Special Characters: (rules in parenthesis are in addition to current rules)
Azrael, Supreme Grand Master (stats brought up to “Chapter Master)
Belial, Master of the Deathwing (allow a Command Squad to upgrade to Terminator Armor)
Sammael, Master of the Ravenwing
Ezekiel, Grand Master of Librarians

Asmodai, Master Interrogator-Chaplain WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld9 Sv3+ 125pts
Blade of Reason; Rosarius; Crozius Arcanum; Bolt Pistol
Fearless; Honour of the Chapter; Litanies of Battle; Fearful Reputation: Any enemy that must make a morale check due to a failed assault with Asmodai or the unit he is attached to must take that morale check at Ld-1; Master Interrogator: Any independent character killed by Asmodai counts for 2 kill points.

Naaman, Veteran Scout Sergent WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv4+ 60pts
Equipmen: Silenced Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Chainsword, Locator Beacon, Frag Grenades, and Melta Bombs.
Fearless, Combat Tactics, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Scouts; Feel No Pain
Naaman replaces the Scout Sergeant in a single squad. Conveys to his squad Stealth, Silenced Bolt Pistols R18” S4 AP5 Pinning, Cluster Mines

Rule Addendum:
All HQ units replace And They Shall Know No Fear with Fearless.

Unit Addendums
Chaplains: A chaplain may be upgrade to an Interrogator-Chaplain for +20pts; gains +1BS and +1W

Terminator Squad: Any Terminator squad taken must be upgraded to Deathwing Terminators for 3pts per model; Deathwing Assault; And They Shall Know No Fear is replaced with Fearless; Any model may replace its stormbolter and power fist with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield or a pair of Lightning Claws for Free.

Mortis Pattern Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought and Dreadnought: Any dreadnought armed with two Twin-Linked Autocannons must upgrade to “Mortis Pattern” for +10 pts.
A Mortis Pattern Dreadnought’s twin-linked autocannons cause pinning, and may re-roll a single die for penetration.

Scout Units
Scout Squad/ Scout Bike Squad/ Land Speeder Storm: Unlike the scouts of other chapters, the Scouts of the Dark Angels are full Battle Brothers; All Scouts in these units must be upgraded to full Battle Brothers for +3pts per model/ +3pts per model/ +10pts per speeder; Scout Squads become elite; Scout Squad and Scout Bike Squads gain +1BS and +1WS; Land Speeder Storm gains +1BS.

Company Veterans
Sternguard: Indicative of the most veteran squad of the battle companies they are limited to 0-1 squad per army; And They Shall Know No Fear is replaced with Fearless.

Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Space Marine Bike Squad: Space Marine Bike Squads must be upgraded to Ravenwing Attack Squadrons at +10pts per bike; bikes upgraded in such a way gain “Scouts” and “And They Shall Know No Fear” is replaced with Fearless; a single Land Speeder may be taken for the point costs and options as indicated in the Land Speeder Squadron.


Blood Angels
Chapter Tactics: Furious Charge replaces Combat Tactics for all units.

Prohibited Units (the following are units that may not be taken by the Dark Angels):
Space Marine Chapter Master, Master of the Forge, Sternguard Veterans, Thunderfire Cannon.

Special Characters
Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels (Angels from on High – Veteran Assault Squads are scoring units)
Mephiston, Lord of Death
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost
Brother Corbulo
Tycho, Captain of the 3rd Company

Moriar, The Chosen WS5 BS4 S6 AV13/13/10 I4 A2(3)+d6 225pts
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with Master Crafted Heavy Flamer, Seismic Hammer with Master Crafted Meltagun; smoke launcher; searchlight; extra armor
Venerable; Blackest Rage: +d6 Attacks, included above, must always move, must assault if close enough to an enemy unit.

Unit Addendums
Blood Angel Honor Guard
Honor Guard and Command Squad: May take jump packs for +10pts per model.

Death Company WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
1 model for each of the following units taken is free: Honor Guard, Command Squad, Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad, Veteran Assault Squad; Assault Squad; Tactical Squad; Devastator Squad.
Frag and Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Bolter or Chainsword; Power Armor.
Fearless, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Black Rage
If the squad numbers fewer than 10 models any number of Death Company marines may be purchased to bring the unit up to 10 models. The unit may be given Jump Packs at +5pts/model.

Veteran Assault Squad
Vanguard Veteran Squad: Up to two Veterans may take Flamer +5pts, Plasma Gun +15pts, Meltagun +10pts.

Furioso Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought: May not take Hunter Killer Missiles; May upgrade to a Death Company Dreadnought for +25pts or a Venerable Dreadnought for +20pts. A Death Company Dreadnought must make a move each turn and gains +d3 attacks; A Dreadnought upgrade to a Venerable Dreadnought gains the “Venerable” special rule.

Scout Units
Scout Squad/ Scout Bike Squad/ Land Speeder Storm: Unlike the scouts of other chapters, the Scouts of the Blood Angels are full Battle Brothers; All Scouts in these units must be upgraded to full Battle Brothers for +3pts per model/ +3pts per model/ +10pts per speeder; Scout Squads become elite; Scout Squad and Scout Bike Squads gain +1BS and +1WS; Land Speeder Storm gains +1BS.

Blood Angel Rhino
Rhino: Must take overcharged engines for +5pts.

Assault Squad
Assault squads may be taken as troop choices.

Baal Predator
Predator: A predator may upgrade to a Baal Predator for +30; replacing its Autocannon with Twin-linked Assault Cannons and gaining Overcharged Engines; may upgrade Heavy Bolter sponsons to Heavy Flamers for free, it may not take lascannon sponsons.

And yet apparently this is too difficult for GW to do. Very strange.

My only real comment is a big NO!!!!!!!! to Rites of Battle. It's bad enough they kept that rule for Sicarius, don't give it to a whole army as standard. It's a horrid, horrid rule.

BYE

Any recommendations instead of "Rites of Battle"? I didn't like it either but wanted to just get this out here and didn't have time to give it thought.

An alternative to Rites of Battle?

Umm... anything!!!!

Furious Charge would do. They are BA's after all.

BYE

FURIOUS CHARGE! it is.

Also whats your opinion on the way I dealt with the special characters I added, Naaman, Asmodai, and Moriar?

If Interrogator-Chaplains get +1 W, shouldn’t Azmodai have 3 wounds...?

yes... that was a typo.

Honestly, the simplest way is to fold them into C: SM.

Give Captains rules like "Mounted Assault", only for Terminators/Assault Terminators & Assault Squads respectively, along with a rule allowing a bannerbearer in a single terminator/assault terminator squad.

Add on the few missing updates (HF+TLAsscan for Preds, Turbo'd Rhinos, Jump Packs for Command Squads, Mastercrafted Weapons for Chapter Masters, and probably a handful of others that are eluding me)

And then port over the truely unique characters (basically just Samael, Dante & Corbulo. Switch Samael's "Army Organisation" rule for "Mounted Assault" and possibly give Dante a Chapter Tactics rule that grants Furious Assault.

Honestly, most of the characters can be represented with the generic characters anyway. Tycho, Mephiston, Lemartes, Ezekiel, Belial(with the above rule), and Azrael can all be approximately represented.

This is mostly just a port of those codices into the new one, in a more point for point, unit to unit way.

Most of the things that you say are missing updates are up there.

I was just tired of the fact GW is lazy and wanted to see how long it really would take to redo those codeices to be compatible with the new book. 2.5hrs, without really re-writing.

I agree though, the special characters should be re-written as well. I just didn't bother with it since I really don't play as either BA or DA armies. I do think that each of the two deserve at least a special character to fill the important HQ roles... Chapter Master/Special Company Commander/Chaplain/Librarian/ Something Unique.

This is kinda what I was thinking for characters, in addition to having their stats brought up to match the new SM codex.

Belial = Terminator assault; terminators count as scoring.
Sammael = Mounted Assault; bikes count as scoring
Azrael = re-written to be on par with Lysander and Marneus.
Ezekiel = the only way unique DA psyker powers could be incorporated.
Asmodai = DA Chaplain of uber-intimidation and interrogation
Naaman = in the same vein as Telion a unit upgrade


Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels = Veteran Assault Squads are scoring units; immune to insta-death
Mephiston, Lord of Death = he only way unique BA psyker powers could be incorporated.
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost = Death Company Chaplain: removes the 0-1 limit on Death Company marines; Death Company are scoring; normal chaplain abilities.
Brother Corbulo = Uber-apothecary with some chaplain abilities
Tycho, Captain of the 3rd Company= Replaces combat tactics with "Preferred Enemy Orks"
Moriar, The Chosen = Death Company Venerable Dreadnought; Counts as HQ.

As a blood angels player, I cannot agree with the wholesale granting of furious charge. It's one of the best USR's, and granting it to an army designed for HtH with no additional points cost is unbalancing.

Presumably the cost of "Furious Charge" would be incorporated into what ever Character would grant it.

As to the so called... "unique" psychic Powers...

Some of 'em can be represented (flavour wise) in the new 'dex.

Hellfire = The Avenger
Force Barrier = Force Dome.
Might of Heroes = Might of the Ancients
Wings of Sanguinius = Quickening/The Gate of Infinity

As to the special characters, Most of 'em really don't need porting over.
*If you gave Captains a "Terminator Assault" rule, Belial is pointless.
*Tycho is and always will be pointless and useless. Just use a Captain with a combi-melta.
*Ezekiel and Memphiston are also pointless, since you can easily use Tigurius or a generic Librarian as a fair representation. Ditto for Asmodai & Lemartes.
*Aside from the Lion Helm, a generic Chapter Master is a fair approximation of Azrael.

The only ones who are truely "unique" are Samael (because of his rides), Corbulo (because he's an IC Apocathary) and Dante (who has a fair amount of oddities). The others... aren't.

EDIT: And there's no need for a separate death company entry, either. Just use Vanguard Vets.
EDIT2: Bringing their stats to Codex: SM levels would nerf Ezekiel, Mephiston and Lemartes anyway, as they reduced ALL Chaplains/Librarians, even Tigurius and Cassius to 2W 2A - quite an appropriate move in my mind, as it makes them more supporting then offensive, allowing Captains & Chapter Masters to take that role.

So the point is that all SM Codices are to be the same?

JohnHwangDD wrote:So the point is that all SM Codices are to be the same?

No, the point is that there's no need for split 'dexes for DA/BA. They aren't different enough from the CA to warrant it.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So the point is that all SM Codices are to be the same?

No, the point is that there's no need for split 'dexes for DA/BA. They aren't different enough from the CA to warrant it.

They are *NOW*...

DD's actually right here.

BYE

ChrisAsmadi wrote:As to the so called... "unique" psychic Powers...

Some of 'em can be represented (flavour wise) in the new 'dex.

Hellfire = The Avenger
Force Barrier = Force Dome.
Might of Heroes = Might of the Ancients
Wings of Sanguinius = Quickening/The Gate of Infinity

My concern is more for the ones that can't simply be translated over, but I agree some can. The ones I meant by "unique" were the ones that can't be translated.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
As to the special characters, Most of 'em really don't need porting over.
*If you gave Captains a "Terminator Assault" rule, Belial is pointless.
*Tycho is and always will be pointless and useless. Just use a Captain with a combi-melta.
*Ezekiel and Memphiston are also pointless, since you can easily use Tigurius or a generic Librarian as a fair representation. Ditto for Asmodai & Lemartes.
*Aside from the Lion Helm, a generic Chapter Master is a fair approximation of Azrael.

The only ones who are truely "unique" are Samael (because of his rides), Corbulo (because he's an IC Apocathary) and Dante (who has a fair amount of oddities). The others... aren't.

These entries are designed to work in direct parallel to the Space Marine Codex. The new codex space marines is written we can't add "Terminator Assault" as a new rule to the codex in general and besides it wouldn't be appropriate either. Only 2 or 3 chapters actually have enough Terminator armor to use it as a viable tactic and only the Dark Angles are known to do it, one reason Lysander lost that ability.

I agree Tycho is a bit on the weak side, but he's been a mainstay of Blood Angels for a long while, the only addition I could think is to allow him to fire his combi-melta an unlimited number of time with added range. Beyond that I gave him the ability to make his army "preferred enemy: ork" which is useless against other armies.

If you read my list using the Dark Angels and Blood Angels means you can not use any of the special characters listed in the Codex Space Marines. Thus Mephiston and Ezekial are those armies replacement option to Tigurius, and Asmodai & Lemartes are for Cassius. In all cases its important because they show the differences in how the BA and DA interpret those aspects of the Codex Astartes.

In the case of Azrael, his is a rather generic Chapter Master, but taking him will be the only way to get his wargear. More than the other chapter master IC's he's a bit more defined by that.

So while some of the special characters are not 100% unique, they are a strong part of the identity of these chapters and because they don't have access to the special characters in the Codex Space Marines, the advantages, disadvantages, and the combinations you can create out of those speak to the identity of BA and DA over Codex Astartes chapters.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
EDIT: And there's no need for a separate death company entry, either. Just use Vanguard Vets.
EDIT2: Bringing their stats to Codex: SM levels would nerf Ezekiel, Mephiston and Lemartes anyway, as they reduced ALL Chaplains/Librarians, even Tigurius and Cassius to 2W 2A - quite an appropriate move in my mind, as it makes them more supporting then offensive, allowing Captains & Chapter Masters to take that role.

I didn't want to just use Vanguard as Death Company because Vanguard had already been amended to represent the blood angel's Assault Veterans.
When I said that I would bring their stats in line to the codex it was predominantly in reference to the Azrael and Belial who are deficient stat wise. I said it generally because I was just typing quickly and didn't want to get too specific with who needed to be updated in that way.

For the record, the stats of characters who's stats are sub-par in comparison to the generic unit will be brought in line with that; ie Azrael getting the "Chapter Master" stats.

When it comes to some of the special characters they maybe tweaked down to follow suit with the special characters who got nerfed a bit to keep them all on an equal footing (chaplains and librarians), but if its appropriate the stats maybe retained such as with the Asmodai who is suppose to run around in front, hunting down enemies for interrogation.

I'll provide the updates for the special characters sometime either this weekend or Monday.

One other thing, on the whole issue of if BA and DA are different enough to get their own codices, I think they are distinctive enough to warrant something at least partially separate from the main book. What I have written here is meant to tie the common components of the BA, DA, and Codex Astartes chapters together while allowing the BA and DA the latitude to express their uniqueness.

With the format codices are written in today even in summarizing the uniqueness of the BA and DA would need about 10 pages each to do them justice. Over the years so much fluff has been written on these two chapters that together they can easily fill a book as large as the new Codex Space Marines; this is one reason I wrote them together because its my belief that they don't necessarily deserve individual codices but do deserve on anthology between the two that exists in parallel to the rules in the Codex Space Marines.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
*Ezekiel and Memphiston are also pointless, since you can easily use Tigurius or a generic Librarian as a fair representation. Ditto for Asmodai & Lemartes.
*Aside from the Lion Helm, a generic Chapter Master is a fair approximation of Azrael.

The only ones who are truely "unique" are Samael (because of his rides), Corbulo (because he's an IC Apocathary) and Dante (who has a fair amount of oddities). The others... aren't.

EDIT: And there's no need for a separate death company entry, either. Just use Vanguard Vets.

Keep your filthy hands away from my sweet, sweet candy. Counts as Vangaurd vets my . Mephistion is a t5 i6 naughty vampire god and don't you forget it.

Geez, some people's children.

Valhallan42nd wrote:As a blood angels player, I cannot agree with the wholesale granting of furious charge. It's one of the best USR's, and granting it to an army designed for HtH with no additional points cost is unbalancing.

Perhaps the Blood Angels could be penalized by forcing them to Fall Forward when failing a Morale Test. Also, reduce the player's control over them by forcing them to automatically move an extra 6" in lieu of Shooting some portion of the time...

I don't know about anyone else but I think atleast the way Death Company are in their Online codex is pretty decent for the cost (or no cost whatever the case).

I think allowing the special characters of DA and BA stand out is a good thing and the ways they do it really add to their character.

On the Asmodai, what did people think of his special rule? I'm concerned the double kill point thing might be too much of a meta-game rule.

JohnHwangDD wrote: Perhaps the Blood Angels could be penalized by forcing them to Fall Forward when failing a Morale Test. Also, reduce the player's control over them by forcing them to automatically move an extra 6" in lieu of Shooting some portion of the time...

That would kinda be an ironic consequence of failing morale... idk if it would work all that well, but maybe, maybe not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps the Blood Angels could be penalized by forcing them to Fall Forward when failing a Morale Test.

For a HTH army, falling forward is a good thing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, reduce the player's control over them by forcing them to automatically move an extra 6" in lieu of Shooting some portion of the time...

Yes, 'cause that was so successful with the World Eaters. Armies you cannot control are not fun. Period.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: Perhaps the Blood Angels could be penalized by forcing them to Fall Forward when failing a Morale Test. Also, reduce the player's control over them by forcing them to automatically move an extra 6" in lieu of Shooting some portion of the time...

That would kinda be an ironic consequence of failing morale... idk if it would work all that well, but maybe, maybe not.

And yet, it works find for BT and the old BA. I say, throw both of them in as BA penalties to balance them out.

I don't like the idea of BA losing control of their models, its one of those things that sounds good on paper, but when you've played a world eaters army you'll quickly realize how much fun is sapped out the game. I've done it, not fun at all. I think we can come up with better.

Then Thorpian d6 is a fair compromise.

I like the fall forward, and I think you can represent the reduced control by just saying "toward the nearest enemy unit."

I think that is better than forcing units to make a run actions. It would make it much too difficult to use Tactical and Devastator squads, especially if you're trying hold a critical location.

Towards the nearest enemy unit doesn't work. The amount of times I've both led away, and been led away, by a skimmer that makes itself the closest target and then pulls away from the rest of the army, dragging my army with it, is too hard to count.

World Eaters did not work for this reason. I once won a game by separating a ravening Glaive Prince from the rest of his forces by making sure my Demolisher was closer to it (and only it), forcing the Berzerkers to walk towards my guns (and my Demo Charges), while I could take long ranged potshots at the Daemon Prince as it ran away from my lines and towards the Demolisher (which it immobilised by the end, but did not kill). I then finished off the Prince's 4th wound with a Lasgun shot.

'Nearest enemy' should never enter into any rules. It's too easy to break.

BYE

Then how about just "a full 6" move towards any enemy unit"

But the thing is, wind-up MEQs are *funny*.

For your *opponent*. Having an army that you couldn't control for 1/3rd of every game was decidedly un-fun.

BYE