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so you fight a necrons for the first time and you hate all their cheese. SoB are unstobable with their faith points, etc.

however necrons fall in assault, and i wiped the floor with a sob player yesterday.

so to the quesion at hand, what to you qualifies something as being broken in an army?

Is a broken lists something that you can't beat or no one can? is saying something is broken a cop out that is said jokeingly to units that did so much better then they should have?

my rival 'broken unit' is the tyrant guard from tyranids. i have never been able to take them down in 4th edition. not to mention all their MC get 2d6 pen on my tanks. next was BA and their minus one WS and BS while giving the player re rolls.

not to say these are broken units but is something simply broken until the player learns to deal with it with a newer, more balanced, version of the list, or is it the company that needs to make sure that every list even extreme builds are balanced?

Question: what qualifies something as broken to you.

very little counts as broken to me...


the general buzz seems to be anything that someone else gets in their army that screws you over that you weren't expecting/happy about/decided that was too powerful compared to anything you had- all of this is regardless of any negatives such a thing would have or how non-broken it actually is

Broken is a cop out

Darkness wrote:Broken is a cop out

Hardly. While I'd hardly call a whole list broken, there are units that are broken or have been broken in the past.

BYE

This thread is borken!

Who's borken?



BYE

I would say that a broken unit is something that brakes a tenet of the rule book. Something that no body was happy about happeneing but didn't really mind because it was happeneing to everyone. Something doesn't necessarily have to be good to be broken to me.

For instance, the new Heroic Intervention rule is in my opinion broken. Because that rule lets you break a tenet, assaulting after deep strike.

So I take that kind of thing as broken.

Aren't games built on the idea that special rules will break rules?

To me broken is an army that can beat all other armies with no talent by the general. I don't think anything is this broken because any list you can find out there, someone can find a list to destroy that one even at the cost of doing minimuly well against others. By the way I hope the SOB player you crushed was the one I hate, and if it is I hope you made the whiny baby cry, cause I am sure he is still complaining about the last tournament!

How are tyrant guard broken? They are just T6 with a 3+ save and 2 wounds. Nothing is really broken in this game, that would imply that it it somehow breaks the game itself and make it unplayable.

The closest thing I have experienced to broken were the fourth edition skimmer rules. They changed the way the game played to a point where a close combat centric force could just get wagon trained and made totally irrelevant. Having played an all close combat tyranid force against a mech tau list that liked to encircle itself and stick in a corner I can tell you that the rules were broken. I couldn't kill the tanks, I couldn't shoo the troops, yet they could shoot me with impunity.

Something is broken if it is degenerately-powerful to the point where it dominates the competitive scene. Falcons in 4th edition were broken. Warp Spiders in 2nd edition were broken. Black Lotus (in Magic cards) is broken. My feeling, based on nothing more than my experiences reading internet forums, is that nothing is broken in 5th, with the POSSIBLE exception of horde Orks.

Do we also consider things that don't work to be broken?

As in things that, either due to bad rules writing or later updates simply don't work either as intended or at all?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do we also consider things that don't work to be broken?

As in things that, either due to bad rules writing or later updates simply don't work either as intended or at all?

BYE

We should, but ultimately, like Cheese and many things on the internet, people are going to use it for things they consider "overpowered" or "game winning" rather than things which are, in fact, "broken"(ie., don't work within the system) and need to be changed, like Pariahs.

Or, as a small example, the Emperor's Tarot.

BYE

Platuan4th wrote:We should, but ultimately, like Cheese and many things on the internet, people are going to use it for things they consider "overpowered" or "game winning" rather than things which are, in fact, "broken"(ie., don't work within the system) and need to be changed, like Pariahs.

What's wrong with Pariahs that makes them broken?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know what it is, besides them being generally a terrible unit.

And if it's just because they are a terrible unit with no redeeming features or qualities, then I'd like to lump Flash Gitz alongside them - a 400 point shooty HS slot in an Ork army compared to (cheaper and more effective) Lootas in an Elite slot. Yeah... good balance work there guys.

Are Holo-Fields (or Falcons in 4th in general) considered 'broken' units? Holo-Fields in general?

Infernus Shells for Griffons are something I'd consider 'broken'. I think Yak and Centurion also discovered that Myotic Sprores are also 'broken' from what happened with them at Adepticon. Real shame that... FW either writes rules that are terrible or completely broken. Guess it's hard to find a middle ground when most of your job consists of copypaste.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
What's wrong with Pariahs that makes them broken?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know what it is, besides them being generally a terrible unit.

BYE

Some of it is that they're a generally terrible unit, but they're also a unit with no place within the codex it was placed, even within the fluff. I understand putting a choppy unit in what is essentially a shooty army for counter-assaults is standard GW practice and can actually be a decent points investment occasionally(Rough Riders come to mind) if you have the points left over after the essentials of an army. Wraiths can take this role somewhat reliably because they have some semblance of speedy movement and being able to get to where they're needed, something Pariahs seriously lack. Their armament and statline makes them seem to be both a bodyguard for the Lord(something their paltry I3, 1 Attack, and slow movement makes a bad idea) and comparable to Immortals as a ranged Elite(Immortals of course win out by being both cheaper and Necrons) with the benefit of a Warscythe when one first looks over the list. In an army that's resilient(WBB) and shooty, they introduce a unit that doesn't have the army's most important rule(what's a Phase Out?), carries expensive shooting power weapons, and lacks an Invulnerable save that could make up for that lack of said army rule. It's a confused, slow, expensive fire magnet that can't protect its own Kill Point in an army that should be relatively(in relation to most other MEqs) hard to get kill points from.

If we are shooting on the low end i believe that the lictor is the single most broken unit in the game. It is literally twice its value in points, it HAS to deploy into dangerous terrain at all times now, it will never be concealed due to TLOS, and due to countercharging it will never survive its initial engagement. Ever.

Good one there. Yes. The Lictor can't kill anything, dies if you look at it, and isn't worth taking for its other abilities.

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:If we are shooting on the low end i believe that the lictor is the single most broken unit in the game. It is literally twice its value in points, it HAS to deploy into dangerous terrain at all times now, it will never be concealed due to TLOS, and due to countercharging it will never survive its initial engagement. Ever.

lol i never thought of that, because their deep striking in terrain raw they have to take a dengerous terrain test.

i would say units that are broken are anything that aren't worth their points in a majority of the resonable lists their taken in.

while i want to say templar are broken, taking a vow that allows you to re roll all failed to hit rolls in close combat, 5 man 2 heavy termi squads, and a possible 20 man troop slot. i'm reminded i have sternguard, 3+ invo storm shields, and pedro.

ShumaGorath wrote:How are tyrant guard broken? They are just T6 with a 3+ save and 2 wounds. Nothing is really broken in this game, that would imply that it it somehow breaks the game itself and make it unplayable.

The closest thing I have experienced to broken were the fourth edition skimmer rules. They changed the way the game played to a point where a close combat centric force could just get wagon trained and made totally irrelevant. Having played an all close combat tyranid force against a mech tau list that liked to encircle itself and stick in a corner I can tell you that the rules were broken. I couldn't kill the tanks, I couldn't shoo the troops, yet they could shoot me with impunity.

I would argue that the problem there was that your CC force had to pit its weakness against an enemy's strength. If you had a force with some decent AT firepower, it would have been okay.

The really broken skimmer was the Eldar Falcon with Holofield and whatever, which was extremely hard for even a good anti-tank unit to hit.

Hey, 40k could be worse

WFB GT Heat 2 results:

1st Andy Smilie Daemons
2nd Tristana Smith Daemons
3rd Bahri Malik Daemons
4th Eddie Eccles Daemons
5th Thomas Hall Daemons

Oof!

Next thing is people will claim that as evidence of the strength of the Daemon codex.

I don't know anything about WHFB as I have not played it since 2nd edition.


Edits: I can't seem to spel rite this morning.

The Borkan list.

Over-efficient units:

Dakkafex - Way too much shooty, availability and survivability compared to other monsters/vehicles in its price range.
Sternguard - Army lists should not have a one-size-fits-all unit, unless such a unit is stictly 0-1. It detracts from tactical play.
Twin laser Reaver Titan - Six strength D pie plates, anti-Eq massed barrage, survivability, range and a stupidly low pricetag (except for the model).


Stupid rules:

Lash of Slaanesh - Just borkan!
Strength D blast - The rule isnt bad but most Strength D weapons should not have any form of blast template.
Infernus shells - Auto flee!



Copy edit and add.

Surely daemons should be awesome in wfb!

If they stand a chance against bolters and chainswords in 40k then a few arrows and daggers shouldn't be a problem!

Following the part about not being used as intended, Sammael Master of the Ravenwing was supposed to be immune to gets hot from his plasma cannon and he was supposed to be able to fire both his TL storm bolter and Plasma Cannon in the same turn. They forgot to include both rules...

Orlanth wrote:
Over-efficient units:
Twin laser Reaver Titan - Six strength D pie plates, anti-Eq massed barrage, survivability, range and a stupidly low pricetag (except for the model).

Stupid rules:
Strength D blast - The rule isnt bad but most Strength D weapons should not have any form of blast template.

I really think that most of the Apocalypse super-heavies are borken, unless their enemy is just taking a bunch of anti-tank.

10" blast is both way too much damage (especially compared to their Heavy 10 equivilents) and really stupid for a tank shell that comes out of something like Baneblade cannon.

Strength D is handed out like candy, and you would have to be an idiot to take anything less than Strength D weapons.

I guess what I mean to say is... Apocalypse is what's borken!

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Over-efficient units:
Twin laser Reaver Titan - Six strength D pie plates, anti-Eq massed barrage, survivability, range and a stupidly low pricetag (except for the model).

Stupid rules:
Strength D blast - The rule isnt bad but most Strength D weapons should not have any form of blast template.

I really think that most of the Apocalypse super-heavies are borken, unless their enemy is just taking a bunch of anti-tank.

10" blast is both way too much damage (especially compared to their Heavy 10 equivilents) and really stupid for a tank shell that comes out of something like Baneblade cannon.

Strength D is handed out like candy, and you would have to be an idiot to take anything less than Strength D weapons.

I guess what I mean to say is... Apocalypse is what's borken!

not to rain on your parade but in apocolypse you can make your own units and they have data sheets for them. even make your own vehicle formations.

i have an arm 14 LR with a demolisher cannon two twin linked heavy flamers and a twin linked assault cannon.

is that balanced? at 300 points? not in the least especially with the new MS rules. but in apocolypse it wouldn't be half as effective.

All of the GW created superheavies designed for apocalypse are broken. Someone who takes a lot of them will beat someone who does not. Every time. Without fail. They are all guaranteed to pay for their point investment.

not to rain on your parade but in apocolypse you can make your own units and they have data sheets for them. even make your own vehicle formations.

i have an arm 14 LR with a demolisher cannon two twin linked heavy flamers and a twin linked assault cannon.

is that balanced? at 300 points? not in the least especially with the new MS rules. but in apocolypse it wouldn't be half as effective.

Not when for 200 more you can get a baneblade.

wash-away wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Over-efficient units:
Twin laser Reaver Titan - Six strength D pie plates, anti-Eq massed barrage, survivability, range and a stupidly low pricetag (except for the model).

Stupid rules:
Strength D blast - The rule isnt bad but most Strength D weapons should not have any form of blast template.

I really think that most of the Apocalypse super-heavies are borken, unless their enemy is just taking a bunch of anti-tank.

10" blast is both way too much damage (especially compared to their Heavy 10 equivilents) and really stupid for a tank shell that comes out of something like Baneblade cannon.

Strength D is handed out like candy, and you would have to be an idiot to take anything less than Strength D weapons.

I guess what I mean to say is... Apocalypse is what's borken!

not to rain on your parade but in apocolypse you can make your own units and they have data sheets for them. even make your own vehicle formations.

i have an arm 14 LR with a demolisher cannon two twin linked heavy flamers and a twin linked assault cannon.

is that balanced? at 300 points? not in the least especially with the new MS rules. but in apocolypse it wouldn't be half as effective.

Uh.... What?

You can use vehicles you designed yourself if your opponent allows it. You can do that in regular 40K too. You can do that in Necromunda, if you want.

What does that have to do the balance of GWs rules? There's no rule for Apocalypse that makes every made-up vehicle you want legal.