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Gonna start a new army for a "Tale of Four Gamers" style competition at my local hobby shop. 500 points a month till we get to 2000 points. I'm trying Chaos Marines, as I have none and like the look and character of the army. I have no real idea what the strong units or build combos are, however.

Any suggestions from the knowledgable out there?

well what is your playstyle like? are you a "go for the throat/win" kinda person, are you a fluff guy, all rounder maybe?

i am biased, but i really like plague marines. the are tough as nails against small arms fire, while thousands sons are great against AP 1/2 and higher strength stuff.

also, very few chaos players will deny how good obliterators are.

ok, what style of play with you be leaning towards? fast, heavy, troops? HQ's are a great start

HQ's:
Daemon Princes:
are strong, reliable, good center pieces, but come at a large cost and will be targeted alot

Lord:
A solid choice and has access to a large arsenal [including daemon weapons] gets my vote

Sorceror:
Fantastic not only at support but also as a spearhead, a range of phychic powers and almost as large arsenal as the lord, plus mount of *insert god of your choosing*

Strong or cheesy?

Cheesy would be nothing but Daemon Princes with Mark of Slaanesh and wings, Plague Marines with as many Meltas as possible and/or Thousand Sons, Raptors, as many Obliterators as you can fit in.

If you break it up with some Defilers, Berzerkers, and normal Chaos Marines, couple that with some toned down Daemon Princes then it won't be quite as cheesy.

Edit: I don't agree that Daemon Princes are expensive, even a basic kitted out Lord with a fist and a combi weapon is going to be within 20 to 30 points (if not 5 or 10 points time you give him a jump pack or wings) of a fully kitted out Daemon Prince and the Prince has better stats and is a MC. I agree that they are fire magnets.

But you really can't use DPs effectively in a big army. They just get shot up and you've wasted 2KP and a boatload of points.

Looky Likey wrote:Strong or cheesy?

Cheesy would be nothing but Daemon Princes with Mark of Slaanesh and wings, Plague Marines with as many Meltas as possible and/or Thousand Sons, Raptors, as many Obliterators as you can fit in.

If you break it up with some Defilers, Berzerkers, and normal Chaos Marines, couple that with some toned down Daemon Princes then it won't be quite as cheesy.

Edit: I don't agree that Daemon Princes are expensive, even a basic kitted out Lord with a fist and a combi weapon is going to be within 20 to 30 points (if not 5 or 10 points time you give him a jump pack or wings) of a fully kitted out Daemon Prince and the Prince has better stats and is a MC. I agree that they are fire magnets.

cheese (as a gaming concept) is an illusion proliferated by people that get bitter about losing. certain armies builds will always be better than others. the fact that you are suggesting that a player should NOT do something because it may be construed as cheesy is rediculous. you play a game with a huge variety of options, some will be better than others, but if you cant deal with losing to some of then you need to harden the feth up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

Cheese Elemental wrote:But you really can't use DPs effectively in a big army. They just get shot up and you've wasted 2KP and a boatload of points.

the idea that ICs are superior to demon princes in large games is a fallacy. yes they will be shot at, and yes they will probably die eventualy, but it requires a huge effort to kill a demon prince, far greater than than of an IC (that can be powerfisted to death). if your enemy is devoting so much resource to kill a demon prince they will not be focusing on the other elements of your army. if you dont have demon princes (for whatever wacky reasons) the rest of your army will be getting shot at. its much better to lose a demon prince after a few turns than it is to lose an IC and a squad.

what a lot of people dont realise is that demon princes dont often win games on their own. they (like most HQ choices in 40K) are support for the rest of your army. does it matter if they get shot? if you win the game it doesnt. will a demon prince help you win more games an any of the other basic HQ choices? most certainly. even against armies with huge firepower demon princes are better.

also, the only reason you would take a sorcerer over a demon prince is for use of a psychic power, such as lash (dont take a lord unless you want to have a fluffy army of some sort). lash wont win you games by itself, it will help, but its not the be all and end all. if you lose your lash carrier its not the end of the world, and since the combat prowess of a sorcerer pales in comparison to a DP there is no real reason to have one.

i would understand this argument IF there was a significant points difference between the HQ choices, but there isnt. an adequately equipped lord will cost the same and still be inferior to a demon prince. the same is true of sorcerers (especially tzneetch sorcerers). neither have the same versitility as a DP, neither can deal with such a wide range of foes and neither is good enough to warrant one over a demon prince.


to the OP: read this article. it is a good competitive break down of CSM

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Chaos_Space_Marine_Army_Analysis

How is running a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince with Lash and Noise Marines troops with miscellaneous Heavy Support the least bit cheesy? It's right out of the fluff. It's even got an official Legion stamp of authenticity.

Regwon wrote:

Looky Likey wrote:Strong or cheesy?

Cheesy would be nothing but Daemon Princes with Mark of Slaanesh and wings, Plague Marines with as many Meltas as possible and/or Thousand Sons, Raptors, as many Obliterators as you can fit in.

If you break it up with some Defilers, Berzerkers, and normal Chaos Marines, couple that with some toned down Daemon Princes then it won't be quite as cheesy.

Edit: I don't agree that Daemon Princes are expensive, even a basic kitted out Lord with a fist and a combi weapon is going to be within 20 to 30 points (if not 5 or 10 points time you give him a jump pack or wings) of a fully kitted out Daemon Prince and the Prince has better stats and is a MC. I agree that they are fire magnets.

cheese (as a gaming concept) is an illusion proliferated by people that get bitter about losing. certain armies builds will always be better than others. the fact that you are suggesting that a player should NOT do something because it may be construed as cheesy is rediculous. you play a game with a huge variety of options, some will be better than others, but if you cant deal with losing to some of then you need to harden the feth up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

Cheese Elemental wrote:But you really can't use DPs effectively in a big army. They just get shot up and you've wasted 2KP and a boatload of points.

the idea that ICs are superior to demon princes in large games is a fallacy. yes they will be shot at, and yes they will probably die eventualy, but it requires a huge effort to kill a demon prince, far greater than than of an IC (that can be powerfisted to death). if your enemy is devoting so much resource to kill a demon prince they will not be focusing on the other elements of your army. if you dont have demon princes (for whatever wacky reasons) the rest of your army will be getting shot at. its much better to lose a demon prince after a few turns than it is to lose an IC and a squad.

what a lot of people dont realise is that demon princes dont often win games on their own. they (like most HQ choices in 40K) are support for the rest of your army. does it matter if they get shot? if you win the game it doesnt. will a demon prince help you win more games an any of the other basic HQ choices? most certainly. even against armies with huge firepower demon princes are better.

also, the only reason you would take a sorcerer over a demon prince is for use of a psychic power, such as lash (dont take a lord unless you want to have a fluffy army of some sort). lash wont win you games by itself, it will help, but its not the be all and end all. if you lose your lash carrier its not the end of the world, and since the combat prowess of a sorcerer pales in comparison to a DP there is no real reason to have one.

i would understand this argument IF there was a significant points difference between the HQ choices, but there isnt. an adequately equipped lord will cost the same and still be inferior to a demon prince. the same is true of sorcerers (especially tzneetch sorcerers). neither have the same versitility as a DP, neither can deal with such a wide range of foes and neither is good enough to warrant one over a demon prince.


to the OP: read this article. it is a good competitive break down of CSM

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Chaos_Space_Marine_Army_Analysis

QFT

Here is a list to sum that up.

HQ:
DP, MoS, LoS, Wings 155
DP, MoS, LoS, Wings 155
Troops:
10x PMs, 2x Melta, Champ w/ PF, Rhino w/ Havoc 340
10x PMs, 2x Melta, Champ w/ PF, Rhino w/ Combi-Flamer 335
10x PMs, 2x Melta, Champ w/ PF, Rhino w/ Havoc 340
Heavy:
3x Oblits 225
3x Oblits 225
3x Oblits 225

This will win.

Also Lords are a terrible choice. They really suck. Access to Daemon weapons does not a good unit make.

Edit: I predict this thread to become a war zone. After the invocation of Stelek I don't think many will be able to resist.

So, oblits, demon princes, and plaque marines seem to be getting the thumbs up from folks. Are there any chaos units/elements that are just lame? Folks pointed out that sorcerers and lords aren't quite as good a deal as a prince. What about unaligned marines or chosen? My friend had a pretty rough unit of 5 chosen with 4 flamers in a rhino...but I digress. What stuff just isn't worth the points?

I agree with Typeline, by the way, about the term cheesy.

generally cult marines are better than CSM. the extra abilities and fearlessness they have make a big difference. chosen are tricky. they seem good on paper, but in practice i find myself usually wishing i had something else.

things to not touch with a 20ft demon pole in the CSM codex:
lords (over priced for their abilities)
possessed (randomness can lose you games. other choices will do their job better)
chaos dreads (randomness again. 1/3rd on the time it will do what you dont want it to and 1/6 of the time it will shoot you in the face twice)
spawn (randomness, complete lack of control, poor survivability)
lesser demons (over priced compared to CSM, bad save,)
defilers (to expensive for such a vulnerable model. you also cant hide it behind terrain easily)

everything appart from that is fine. as in all codecies some choices will be better than others.

DPs are the best HQ choices
cult marines make the best troops
raptors make the best fast attack (not that there is much choice)
oblits make the best heavy support

I think it's more ridiculous to spell ridiculous wrong.

I have had great luck with Plague marines.

Possessed vehicles are pretty nasty as well. Defilers and vindicators can be pretty rough. The range of defilers is a bonus. It can also keep your back field defended. Possessed land raiders are nigh unstoppable unless they get very lucky or you are poor with your deployment (melta range).

Typeline wrote: After the invocation of Stelek I don't think many will be able to resist...

Invocation of Stelek... I think we've found a name for something chaos-y, probably a sorcerous/psychic thingy. Maybe it's a good "counts as" label for Lash used with no other Slaanesh troops whatsoever, or something equally cheesy-but-deadly.

Where the hey is Stelek? Has he been banned again?

Don't take chaos dreds if you want to win - they always fail at the wrong moment.

Land Raiders are good, and cheaper for chaos than for Marines.

Summoned Greater Daemon is pretty buff for his points, if you can figure out how to get a champion close.

Chaos Lords should only be taken if you want some lulz. Mark of khorne with a daemon weapon can get you as many as 17 attacks on the charge but if you roll a 1 he's going to sit around doing nothing. I like to run one in terminator armour in a chaos terminator unit, they can destroy anybody. but usually they will get charged the lord will roll a one terminators will kill a few guys then get killed.

If you give a Sorcerer a speed boost (bike/wings etc) and warptime it can do some serious damage. I had a mark of slaanesh lash/warptime familiar sorc on a bike kill around 40 marines.

CSM's can be good, in very large numbers. I often use 4-5 squads of ten with a sergeant. chuck in some plasma guns to ensure some kills and your set.

Plauge marines/thousand sons would do this better but are more expensive, especially the thousand sons sorcerer who will cost you at least 80 points and while you would be tempted to give bolt of change to take out some tanks iirc he has to cast his psychic powers at the same target as the unit shoots at which is always going to be infantry. So stick with Doom bolt.

Raptors are the best fast attack option imho. Unit of 5-6 with meltaguns can blow apart some tanks then chuck their weight into combat.

Just like White Dwarf my 200th post is my biggest ever.

Pirate_joe_666 wrote:
Raptors are the best fast attack option imho. Unit of 5-6 with meltaguns can blow apart some tanks then chuck their weight into combat.

What other fast attack choices are there? (I know them, but they suck. Unless it's a ton of Bikers with an IoN)

There really isnt much points over for fast attack in a chaos army.

2xDP as HQ
Terminators as Elite (the points you can spare, usually one squad in my book)
Plague Marines/Noise marines as troops (Prefer 5 man PM squads with 2 special weapons, 3-4 should be enough to hold objectives.)
Obliterators 3x3

Regwon wrote:cheese (as a gaming concept) is an illusion proliferated by people that get bitter about losing. certain armies builds will always be better than others. the fact that you are suggesting that a player should NOT do something because it may be construed as cheesy is rediculous. you play a game with a huge variety of options, some will be better than others, but if you cant deal with losing to some of then you need to harden the feth up

Spoken like a true power gamer, I bet you say the same to little kids that you've just shoulder barged six foot in the air while playing football?

I don't have any problem playing power lists in an appropriate environment and they are just about essential for any decent tournament, but pretending that its you've won the game when its a combination of your codex and army list has pretty much gifted you it is a bit much, especially when not all codexes were created equal.

sourclams wrote:How is running a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince with Lash and Noise Marines troops with miscellaneous Heavy Support the least bit cheesy? It's right out of the fluff. It's even got an official Legion stamp of authenticity.

Who said anything about Noise Marines? I said Plague Marines.

Well, to make the army a bit more user friendly, take Noise Marines instead of Plague Marines if the army is led by a DP with MoS.

Go with the 2 lash Princes, plague marines, & oblits. You can't beat a vindi's pie plate either. Spawn, possessed, and dreads are lame! Kirby, you've played enough chaos to know what works. Several in our group runs some form of chaos, whether it's daemons or marines. Inquire and playtest within.

Go with the 2 lash Princes, plague marines, & oblits.

That's the standard loadout, a bit boring.
Recently, I played in a tourney using 2 DPs, 6 Oblits, 3 NM squads, and one large Termie squad. It worked very well; battle report available at Dakka.

"That's the standard loadout, a bit boring."

Depends on your opponent. Playing a newbie or lesser experienced gamer, yes. Playing a worthy/experienced opponent, no. Experienced gamers will know how to counter the princes and oblits. To use the lash brings your princes into the open, thus making it difficult to keep them alive under heavy fire.

But it still can get a bit repetitive after continual use. Building in other units (like Terminators, or Chosen) can get you a competitive army which plays differently.

"But it still can get a bit repetitive after continual use."

I understand where you're coming from, but they form a great base to build upon. I always include at least 1 unit of infiltrating chosen, whether it be a melta squad or a las/plas squad. They definately give your opponent a close distraction when they are right on top of you.

i like to use a 5 man chosen squad in a rhino armed with 5 plas guns and it proves to be lethal always gets nuked but worth it to nuke that expensive sternguard unit your oponent has just droped

My opinions of chaos units:
Princes are almost always better than lords or sorcs. the princes do die in almost every game. But they almost always take a bunch of people with them, and cause enough disruption to my opponnet to be worth twice their cost.
Do consider a lash prince if you are doing an asaulty army. He only gets to use his power once or twice effectively, but it halps get the charge in times when you wouldn't have, and is most usefull pushign things away from you so you can concentrate on one part of their army at a time.

Greater deomons are fun sometimes and can be another target for the enemy to shoot at. They often soak up more firepower than the 6 ish marines the same shots would have killed dead. I dont use them when going competitive though.

Also, a Tzeentch warptime prince is even more amazing in terms of carnage.

Elites: Terms wiht no upgrades but combi plas deepstiking are a worthwhile investment. So is a slaaneshi squad with lightning claws in a land raider.

Chosen outflanking can be fun and put a hurting on opponents that want to stay in their deployment zone and outshoot you. A chosen squad with 3 or 4 Plasma guns coming in off a side edge almost always has side or rear armor to shoot at.

CSM are versiatle and the cheapest troops you have available. I like to make the core of any army 3 squads of 8 in rhinos with Melta gun, powerfist champ, and IoCG. Its only 645 for a good solid core that can deal with vehicles and infantry alike. A full squad shoots 8 times and attacks 24 times in the assault. 32 attacks on an assault is not bad at all for your basic troopers.

Noise marines are awesome asssault units. I don't bother with blastmasters, they don't earn their cost in my assaulty armies. Doom siren, Pf or pw, and sonic blasters all the way. Armed this way A squad of 8 get 15 shots (only bp on the champ) and assualt 24 attacks, for a total of 39 attacks in one phase. Drive them up in rhinos.

Berzerkers are awesome assault units. Give the champ a PW. Drive them up in rhinos too. a squad of 8 (can you see my magic nubmer yet? LOL) gets 33 attacks (4 of which are power weapons) at s5 and i5 on a turn you charge. Oh and the best part about them is the WS 5. Almost always hit on 3's.

Both berzerkers and noise marine do very well in land raiders, and can be accompanied by the only special characters worth even considering in chaos. Abbadabadingdong and Kharne. Both are effective infantry killers, but both have some minor drawbacks (abbys high cost, kharnes no invul save and attacking yoru own if he charges with a unit).

Plague marines have already been touted, and I don't use thousand sons enough to say anythign about them eihter way. I run assaulty chaos, and neither green nor blue fits in with that.

Oblits have already been touted and for good reason. Though I don't use them very often since I assualt my entire army into their deployment by turn two. They do compliment almost everythign though.

Raptors make nice units to accompany demon princes that are rushing to get into fights. Mark them with nugle in large squads and they can take a good deal of punishment and tar pit some units very well.

Land raiders are good but expensive, and marine landraiders with multimeltas will out melta your combimeltas. Posessed is a worthwhile upgrade if you are delivering troops since it can allow troops now.

Multiple Vindicators and or Predators are ok, but I don't use them as I am usually trying to get as many bodies as I can into the list. They are very vulnerable to assaulty units, and with only side armor 11 and 5th editions abundance of outflankers they are easy to lose quickly.

Useless units:

Lesser demons: Are the SUCK! you get a much better buy if you spend the points on CSM at +2pts per model. If you want support in combat gear your amry to arrive at the same time. Just because you can add easy to kill bodies to a fight does not mean that sending your lord out on his own is a good idea. This worked in the 4th edition codex due tothe awesomeness of the demons, but it is no longer a viable tactic.

Posessed are too expensive for a random ability and you get more mileage from basic troops than you do from them.

Spawn are a waste of points. They are easy to kill with small arms fire and not really that threatening either.

Dreds are not worth the points, they don't do enough damage or disruption to your opponent and usually are just an easy kill point for them. Oh and kill your own guys or simply get the wrong result at the wrong time and cost you objetvies or assaults etc.

Defilers are ok in two's three's if you build your army right, but in the same catagory as dreads any other time.

While not useless, bike squads that do not get the mark of nurgle are too expensive for what they do. Nurgle bike squads are ok, but mostly just for throwing into something that will have a hard time hurting them and being a tarpit.

Anyway, thats my wealth of experience, everyones milage differs though. I find that the most important thing is to play an army you have fun with, so I know guys that still summon lessers and use posessed and dreds, etc. Thats the choas they grew to love and do't mind losing a little more often because of it.

Meph

have to disagree with using defilers its always one of the first things i add to my army list with fleet working the way it does drop the auto canon and flamer and take +2 combat arms and get it into an infantry squad trying to avoid pwer fists and watch slowly eat the squad

Nice summary Mephistoles1. Although Kharne does have an inv 5+, he isn't immune to instant death.

unles used in a fluff based world eaters force i wouldnt take kharn espes as sm term squads all equiped with thunder hammer shield are appearing alot more now they are alot mre effective

Looky Likey wrote:Spoken like a true power gamer, I bet you say the same to little kids that you've just shoulder barged six foot in the air while playing football?

I don't have any problem playing power lists in an appropriate environment and they are just about essential for any decent tournament, but pretending that its you've won the game when its a combination of your codex and army list has pretty much gifted you it is a bit much, especially when not all codexes were created equal.

Spoken like a true complainer. I bet every time you trip over on the field its because somebody fouled you yeah? You know, the guy that is now sprinting towards your goal while you roll around in the mud.

I dont make any apologies for wanting to win a competitive game. As far as game play aspec goes, thats the whole point. If you couldnt win, you wouldnt play. Do you hear the Force India F1 team complaining about Hamilton because Maclaren have a better car? No. They suck it up and they work on getting better.

I derive no satisfaction from playing opponents who, for whatever reason, are easy to defeat. There isnt any fun in it, but if you dont then help them make the right choices, whether it will be in army building or tactically, they will never get any better and you will never feel challenged. And that is what i try and do. Why would i suggest anything otherwise? Do i suggest well built army lists just so that some small child somewhere will feel bad? No of course not. People should always seek to better the standard of play of themselves and those around them. Believe me, two fantastically powerful armies beating the snot out of each other is much better than weak builds throwing organic bean at each other.

Just a point to get you thinking.

tThere are many army builds than are considered cheesy. Dual lash, eldar jetbike councl, 45 lootas, nidzilla, landraider spam to name just a few. If every player in the world had an army that rivalled such builds in power (and believe me there are so many more than the standard internet cookie cutter builds) would they continue to be considered cheesy? If people stopped wimpering long enough to sit down and think "how can i make my army better, and how can i help others do the same" wouldnt the game improve for everyone?