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Not really a whinge as such, just something resembling food for thought....

I know I might be expecting a little much, but I always kind of hope for rational, intelligent discourse on a Forum. Whether the people I am talking to or debating with share my point of view is immaterial, so long as they can put across their views in a relatively adult manner, and at least try to refrain from childish jibes etc. Not always possible. I too sometimes stumble to that level....

But there are some phrases I've seen knocking around this and other boards which I find really quite offensive. Things like 'Oh my god! New Chaos Chosen Knights better have Stats to rape a Blood Knight' I'm sorry, did I read that right? Did you just use the word rape to express your wish for something to be powerful? Rape is an incredibly nasty word. I really don't like even saying it. So why use it in such a loose way? Surely your vocabulary is extensive enough to facilitate the inclusion of some other verb?

And another one, using the term 'abortion' to describe something you don't feel turned out all that well. Example? 'Hmph! I see Space Marines got a better Codex than the abortion that was the Chaos book'

Again, absolutely no need whatsoever to use that term. It's not even being used in the correct context. If you really must use it, then surely it would apply to a previous rendition of said Codex which did not make it all the way to release for whatever reason, the project literally being aborted in favour of starting again.

I know that at least the vast majority of us are intelligent enough to have wide and varying vocabularies to unleash on the Net, so please, just consider which word is going to be appropriate.

The guys using that kind of language are usually mid-teenagers. Hopefully they will grow out of it.

I've a bit of a foul mouth, and unfortunately it comes without much thought.
But I've no real desire to shock or offend people so now that you've pointed it out I'll try and watch out for those words in particular.
I'm fairly thick skinned so I don't really notice when others do it.

gotta agree with your there mad doc, i have much like Da Boss a bit of a foul mouth, however as you pointed out there are just some words you do not use in polite conversation, to take your examples there is simply no need to say it,

what is wrong with the sentence 'Oh my god! New Chaos Chosen Knights better have Stats to completely destroy a Blood Knight?' obviously sometimes if i have had a few to drink stronger words will be put into place somewhere along the line, but a word like rape is something you do not use to describe something like that ever

Well, I'd have little problem with it, but I understand why others might. And they're entitled to have that problem.

I mean, the word rape can be used in more than just a sexual way, it's not like the word should be forever tabboo.

Similarly, abortion can be used in more than one way.
But it's best to avoid posting stuff like that on a public message board because you don't know who's reading or their history, and it's a bit needless to risk upsetting people when you could use another word.

Da Boss wrote:Well, I'd have little problem with it, but I understand why others might. And they're entitled to have that problem.

I mean, the word rape can be used in more than just a sexual way, it's not like the word should be forever tabboo.

Similarly, abortion can be used in more than one way.
But it's best to avoid posting stuff like that on a public message board because you don't know who's reading or their history, and it's a bit needless to risk upsetting people when you could use another word.

I don’t know man, I think there are reasons some words carry a taboo. Rape means something very specific, and it really isn’t an acceptable thing to bring up in a conversation about a miniatures wargame. Really, that and using ‘gay’ as a general derogatory term are about the only two that really bug me.

I think I'll play the devil's advocate here. If you don't like the words ignore the people that often use them. The shock and awe value of that kind of language is why people use it. It draws your eye to it and it can infuriate you thus making it more memorable experience.

Which would you remember more "I rather think those Blood knights should fail when attempting to prove victorious to those rapscallion Chosen Chaos Knights!" or "I hope Chaos Chosen Knights can rape Blood Knights". One is over elaborated and uses terms some might not understand the other is short, sweet, to the point and has a buzz word, rape. It'll boil your blood and compel you to come to the defense of one of the parties mentioned.

Sorry if my use of language has offended you. I know the term rapscallion often gets me in the mood for a little fisticuffs. But seriously. I agree with you but on the other side of things most don't want to watch their feet when expressing themselves in language. There are a lot of words out there and occasionally one might offend someone when you find the right time to use it.

While I agree that I don't like to see the words misused, I am not the interwebs word police. If it is someone you actually know you might make a difference and it is worth taking them aside and saying something, but generally just make sure you aren't doing it. If words on this series of tubes makes you want to cry you might consider going to 4chan.org and start building up some online calluses. Avoid the Random board, no one should be that desensitized.

It seems to me that if you're not ready to see words and terms such as you've pointed out... internet forums are probably not the best place for you to frequent.

Its much safer under your bed.

Part of the problem is the sense of disconnection of this form of communication. It's like a saying I came across. "Barbarians are more polite than civilized Men because they know that they probably won't get their throats cut for saying the wrong thing." Perhaps we need , as a society become a bit more barbaric, if that will make for more polite conversation. That being said, some people will always use words and thrases in conversation with those who they feel are part of their own peer group that they would never use in front of their parents, bosses or other strangers that they might offend. As an aside, the new Chaos Space Marines codex and the Daemons codex should have been abortions, and the Lost and the Damned army list from the Eye of Terror book should most defnintely should NOT have been. There, I said it and that's the way it is.

Deadshane1:
Its much safer under your bed.

Choice of casual language in the gaming community is one of the number one factors that pushes women out of the hobby.
Rough 1 in 4 women have been raped by 21 in the U.S.A.
So having some privileged male throw 'rape' as an adjective for 'cool-power' really removes the fun out of the hobby.
Hate for women is pretty socially acceptable, and it shouldn't be.

If you can't hang with the cave men, stay out of the man cave. *pounds on chest*

Just to point out, men can be raped too.
But I agree, rape is not a word to be bandied about- how would you feel if someone close to you was upset by reading something like that is how I look at it.

Deadshane1 wrote:It seems to me that if you're not ready to see words and terms such as you've pointed out... internet forums are probably not the best place for you to frequent.

Its much safer under your bed.

Alternatively we could add rape and gay to the auto-ban list. The downside is that their legitimate uses will also be lost.

Just because it is the Internets does not mean that any er can ing well say anything they ing like.

This forum belongs to Yakface and Legoburner. They have decided it should be reasonably family friendly, so there needs to be some discretion in the use of language.

Sounds great, rape, gay, and abortion will make the list.

Lemme see If I can come up with some more words to go onto the filter.

Nazi
9/11
holocaust
Hitler
Satan
murder
war
Facist
Stormtrooper
molest
miscarriage
slowed
execute


We'll take it further since I'm joining P.E.T.A. soon...

Slaughter
Hamburger
McNuggets
Mink Coat

Gimmie about two or three posts more and I'll be able to make the list longer. I can at least justify each of these words be avoided as much as Rape (which is not a hate crime directed solely at women) and abortion. Each of those words perhaps could offend me in some way. Maybe they all do. Should we add all of them to the filter as well?

Typeline wrote: I think I'll play the devil's advocate here. If you don't like the words ignore the people that often use them. The shock and awe value of that kind of language is why people use it. It draws your eye to it and it can infuriate you thus making it more memorable experience.

No, it is used because a lot of people, generally younger kids but not always, don't understand that they aren't the world. That people that have grown up in different situations, so that a word that they feel free to use casually might carry a lot of baggage for someone else. They walk into mixed company like the internet without the courtesy to restrict such words.

Exactly.

Da Boss wrote:Just to point out, men can be raped too.

I agree with this sentiment. All of the women I know hate to see men raped more than they hate to see women raped. I guess it's just the prison rape scene in American History X that got to them. Or Goatse (Google images it) who knows.

Well, I don't like to ascribe "values" to it.
But it shouldn't be seen as just a women's issue.
Though it is undoubtably more common with women.
I agree with Killkrazy and Sebster, though personally I can't think of words on their own that offend me.
That's because I'm thick skinned and have been fortunate enough not to have anything like that effect me personally enough to cause a direct emotional response. This isn't the case for everyone.
I'm more likely to use casual swearwords without thought, because I grew up in an environment where that is common.

Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Of course not (I hope.)

The point is that language, like any social behaviour, needs to be appropriate for the situation.

Just because it is a forum doesn't mean there are no social rules and conventions.

It seems to me that these words worked their magic if you're complaining about them. #$!@, @!$# and of course !@#~!$@#!~@$ just don't have the same effect any more.

Kilkrazy wrote:Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Of course not (I hope.)

The point is that language, like any social behaviour, needs to be appropriate for the situation.

Just because it is a forum doesn't mean there are no social rules and conventions.

Please dont say grandmother, my grandmother died several years back and hearing that word seriously offends me.

Rape, abortion, and gay are not appropriate words to be moderated.

Obvious words are, you know, the words that we discipline our kids for using, the ones that shouldnt EVER be spoken by a young child.

S-word, the F-word, and the like. These are obvious words for a filter that dont need to be brought up on a family forum.

So MDG wants to impose his morals on everyone, his own form of internet "rape" so to speak. I personally dont see a problem with the usage of the words he mentioned. If they were used so out of context as to make the user seem ignorant and offensive(like in your example above), simply hit the back button and exit the thread if you're offended. These are actual words we're talking about, used in schools, churches, courtrooms, and family dinner tables without repercussions. Such is not the same with words like S***, F***, C***, and other colourful metaphors.

This is the difference, thats what a filter is for, and if you cannot handle seeing these words, words that are sometimes used to get a real point across in an intelligent conversation, then you honestly have no business in a public forum thats posted on by 100's of people.

Now, if Yak wants to adopt MDG's "Word-Nazi" stance and impose a ridiculous set of morals on everyone, thats his choice since this is his forum. I find it ridiculous however. Imposing ones own set of morals on others that do not agree is completely wrong and pretty much against all ideas of freedom of speach, but if you step into Yak's house, I can understand....to a point. I dont think anyone here wants 'Dakka' to become a board for grades Kindergarten through 3rd.

Kilkrazy wrote:Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Lawl, can't wait to tell my granny I want to rape her peach cobbler like a world class ho. We're one of those open, funny, cursing families.

No-one wants Dakka to be a kindergarten board, however the import of a word changes depending on the context and the way it is used.

Rape is the name of a crop widely grown in the UK to produce cooking oil. That does not justify using it off-handedly as shorthand for effectiveness at destructive power in a game, considering another of its meanings as a violent sexual crime.

Although you do not find it offensive, there are other words you do find offensive, which you refer to in you post.

It is surely better not to use these kind of words when there are other, inoffensive words available.

The idea that people should back out of threads that contain offensive words seems to restrict free speech and discussion even more than having limits on the use of offensive words.

Kilkrazy wrote:No-one wants Dakka to be a kindergarten board, however the import of a word changes depending on the context and the way it is used.

Rape is the name of a crop widely grown in the UK to produce cooking oil. That does not justify using it off-handedly as shorthand for effectiveness at destructive power in a game, considering another of its meanings as a violent sexual crime.

I would say that murder is close to being as cruel if not a crueler crime than rape.

Am I to be moderated after I post how I "murdered" you in a game?

Kilkrazy wrote:
Although you do not find it offensive, there are other words you do find offensive, which you refer to in you post.

MDG finds my use of "Rape" distasteful, Joe Blow finds my use of "murder" distasteful, and Pamela Anderson finds my use of McNuggets distasteful. In my opinion, they are the ones with the issues that need to be addressed. They're the ones trying to impose their own morals on myself and others. These are words used in society every day in intelligent conversation.

Kilkrazy wrote:
It is surely better not to use these kind of words when there are other, inoffensive words available.

Thats just it, they arent offensive words, perhaps someone is 'offended' but the words themselves are not 'offensive' as typical "naughty words" are.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The idea that people should back out of threads that contain offensive words seems to restrict free speech and discussion even more than having limits on the use of offensive words.

Not when those peoples sense of morals is unrealisticly compared to an internet forum.

Surely the fundamental point here should be that, even though this is a forum and thus we are disassociated from each other, when making a post about anything you should think about not just what you are saying, but also how it is said. This is not about being a 'word-nazi' or a 'moral-nazi' or any other such reductionist nonsense. It's about accepting that some people may take offence at the way you phrase things. Or to put it another way, as far as I am awarem nobody on here knows me IRL, but that doesn't mean that I should just use any words that I want to. Everybody has a moral code and it's often far too easily lost when we are all faceless and nameless on a forum.

If you honestly feel that the way you phrase things is acceptable, then fair enough. However, you should expect that some people may take offence at the way you phrase it if you are particularly inflammatory. I don't think that the OP is trying to 'ban' certain words from DakkaDakka, merely to get people to think about offence caused by the way they are used.

Right, I'll get off my ing now....

I don't think censer these words, or their speakers, is necessary at all.
My argument is that people need to understand what meaning they are conveying when they use them.
This meaning is often very different than what they intend.

Take the word f:a:g for instance. Often used in the phrase: "Stop being such a f:a:g."
Normally being spoken between two White straight males.
The word cigarette comes from f-a-g-g-o-t, i.e. bundle of sticks to start a fire which gained it connection to gays during WWII because gays where joked to be the kindling for the fire to burn the Jews.

It's really easy to defend the use of hate-slurs to demean something when you come from a privileged class.

I have no interest in having a man-cave.
and I have no interest in living in a mindlessly PC environment

I just want people to be aware of what they're saying and how it affects the people around them.
If you really cool with making someone feel like crap and taking no responsibility for it, then more power to you.
but I want to make damn sure that you know your being an over-privileged ass
so you'll have a chance to make a self aware decision on conveying that meaning
instead of just using some knee-jerk slang, because no-one let you know that it's f****d-up and hurts people

Y'know I'm starting to think the way that Mad Doc G. flaunts the word 'Mad' is pretty offensive, Mental health is no laughing matter.

M** Doc G. is just trying to rape the English language and the censorship he's pedalling is an abortion.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Thats just it, they arent offensive words, perhaps someone is 'offended' but the words themselves are not 'offensive' as typical "naughty words" are.

Wait, are you arguing that there are intrinsically offensive words, but that 'rape' is not one of them? No, sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Go back and try again.

All you're saying is:"my social stigma is better than your social stigma."

It seems to me that we have yet another thread where somebody expresses an opinion about something that they have thought about, which bothers them in some way, which not everybody agrees with, only to have people turn it into a joke.

Just an observation.