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I think the Gate Librarian, close combat or not, is cool but I cannot think of anything really cool to do with it. Mostly considering the high points cost, and comparing it to say a Six man squad of Marines in a Drop Pod.

I like the thought of a non-Epistolary Librarian with Gate and say Might of the Ancients. Because you cannot charge and deep strike on the same turn, correct me if I am wrong. And it is only 100 points before say Artificer Armour.

So here are the options.

Honour Guard. You could take Gate and Force Dome here, for 100 points. Everytime you pass a Force Dome you save 35+ points. Not bad. Note that you now have a Chapter Master, a ~400 Honour Guard and a ~175 Librarian. That's a lot of points when you can just take Terminators instead. I would say this is not that great.

Sternguard. Not a bad choice, especially if you really like them. So you could take Pedro and take two or three squads and have one that has a bit of close combat. They cannot shoot their bolters the turn they charge but maybe they should not be in combat anyway. Not a bad choice if you really want it.

Legion of the Damned. I like this combination, I really do. I do not know if it is completely necessary but it is still a cool combination. Re-Deep Strike and fire heavy weapons anywhere on the table, all for 400 points. What's not to love.

Terminators. Oh mai. A cool combo, especially since Might of the Ancients goes with Chain Fists. Taking a Librarian does let you take a Psychic Hood.

Bog standard Tac squad. They've got Bolters. So if all you want to do is fly around the table shooting Bolters, then there you go. Do it Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 4, ... you are playing Tactically. Deepstrike a Troop squad right onto an objective, for example. Mind you could always just take 6 guys with a Drop Pod. I do not know how I feel here.

Assault Squads, and Bikes. Bikes are mobile shooting platforms. Why not take more bikes. Assault Squads don't have bolters but they can carry flamers. Useful to reposition?

Devastator Squads. You never know. They cannot of course shoot their weapons the turn they Deep Strike.

------

So basically I do not know what to think. I think it is a cool upgrade, mostly because it is different from Drop Pods. Drop Pods show up and that is it. Not only that, but Drop Pods come in as reserves throughout the game. This power is different, this lets you start everything on the table and reposition one squad every turn.

It is definately a very tactical spell, that gives you a unique option. I think I would just take the guy, and not necessarly build the list around him. Build a list heavy on infantry, and then use the character as necessary.

Gate of Infinity + Avenger = dead enemies, even space marines.

Couple this with some sternguard for some devastating shooting.

The other thing to consider is that you can't buy just 6 Space Marines and a Drop Pod.

Zoned wrote:The other thing to consider is that you can't buy just 6 Space Marines and a Drop Pod.

So true, so true. My bad. Almost like they know what they are doing.

buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.

Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.

Can't do that, codex says units can only combat squad when they deploy, which it states occurs with drop pods when the unit disembarks from the pod.

GoI+Avenger is the combat I've been taking for my libby. He goes with 10 sternguard (3 combi meltas, 2 heavy flamers). This guy does some serious hurt. Against CSM he typically roasts a few, then gets charged and dies. I'm thinking he needs to be stuck in terminator armour with a storm shield. 40 points more, but well worth it IMO.

On the other hand though, gate has been cool but i'm not so sure how much i've needed it. The Avenger has caused some hurt every game it's been used (except for those times that he fails his psychic test at inopportune moments ). Gate on the other hand....

A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.


Hehe, the best use I've ever gotten out of gate though was a custom game type we came up with called "Hungry Hungry Hippos"

Basically there's an obejective in the middle of the board. Up to four opponents each pick a table corner and deploy within 18" that corner. Players must get a troops squad to the objective to 'pick it up,' and then carry it with that troops squad back to their table corner. First team to carry their objective off their table corner wins.

My librarian and two tac squads dropped directly onto the objective first turn (drop pod assault). Next turn the librarian gated one of the squads 24" towards my table corner, scattering a further 8" towards the corner. They got charged by plague marines trying to intercept them, and after losing combat by one voluntarily fell back another 8", and walked off the board for a third turn win, and cries of "CHEESE!" all around.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.

A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.

Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.

KeithGatchalian wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.

A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.

Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.

Incorrect. Gate says "The librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the table and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

There is no rule disallowing him from using a psychic power in combat, and no rule disallowing him from using gate of infinity in combat. The models never "move" persay, they are simply removed, then placed back on the board.

Can you deepstrike and detach an independent character?
You know, so the Vanguard vets deep assault every turn.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.

A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.

Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.

Incorrect. Gate says "The librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the table and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

There is no rule disallowing him from using a psychic power in combat, and no rule disallowing him from using gate of infinity in combat. The models never "move" persay, they are simply removed, then placed back on the board.

this is immaterial because the rules are exclusionary, meaning if it doesnt say you can do something, you cant. i can move regular infantry 6", but i cant move them 12" or 36", even though it doesnt say i cant. it does not say you can remove them from combat (unlike veil of darkness) so you cannot. the fact that it occurs in the movement phase is also an indication that it is movement.

to tacobake:

gate is a rapid fire and assault weapon shooting support power. use it to get your squads of stenguard next to entrenched enemies (lootas in cover) or enemy tanks where they can use their combi-meltas. it is ok with tactical squads and downright scary with terminators (the regular sort). you shouldnt use it with devastators because they are too vulnerable to get shot or charged before they can use their big guns, which have enough range that you dont need to use gate anyway. its ok with combat terminators but youre likely to lose the charge aganist most enemies and get shot up a bit beforehand anyway.

its probably the best power in the codex, especially nasty with locator beacons.

this

According to John Spencer the Librarian can indeed Gate out of close combat.

The reasoning is, every other teleport ability in the game can be used in close combat.

I don't necessarily agree with his logic, but don't be at all surprised to see this used.

Belphegor wrote:Can you deepstrike and detach an independent character?
You know, so the Vanguard vets deep assault every turn.

Lol I thought about this too. The only way would be for the librarian to die during the gating by rolling doubles to scatter. You can only separate in the movement phase, and he cannot move after they have deepstriked (except running, which isn't in the movement phase).

Regwon wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Spellbound wrote:buy 10 marines.

split into combat squads

5 go in drop pod, 5 deploy normally.

A few occasions it's pulled his sternguard out of combat, and given them a final round of shooting they may otherwise not have gotten. Other times the THREAT of the squad gating out after combat has caused opponents to focus all their attacks on the librarian rather than his squad (remember he's an independant character, so they must CHOOSE who to direct their attacks towards, causing 30 wounds to a 5 wound unit doesn't just cause him to die now), which has allowed the marines to choose to fail their moral test (combat tactics is so great), and fall back.

Except you can't gate out of combat. Once you are locked into a close combat, you cannot move your models. Veil of Time specifically says you can...Gate doesn't. Therefore, you still have to follow the rules for movement, including the prohibition.

Incorrect. Gate says "The librarian and any unit he is with are removed from the table and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

There is no rule disallowing him from using a psychic power in combat, and no rule disallowing him from using gate of infinity in combat. The models never "move" persay, they are simply removed, then placed back on the board.

this is immaterial because the rules are exclusionary, meaning if it doesnt say you can do something, you cant. i can move regular infantry 6", but i cant move them 12" or 36", even though it doesnt say i cant. it does not say you can remove them from combat (unlike veil of darkness) so you cannot. the fact that it occurs in the movement phase is also an indication that it is movement.

to tacobake:

gate is a rapid fire and assault weapon shooting support power. use it to get your squads of stenguard next to entrenched enemies (lootas in cover) or enemy tanks where they can use their combi-meltas. it is ok with tactical squads and downright scary with terminators (the regular sort). you shouldnt use it with devastators because they are too vulnerable to get shot or charged before they can use their big guns, which have enough range that you dont need to use gate anyway. its ok with combat terminators but youre likely to lose the charge aganist most enemies and get shot up a bit beforehand anyway.

its probably the best power in the codex, especially nasty with locator beacons.

this

It isn't movement, it's a psychic power that REMOVES the models from the board then PLACES them back using deepstrike. This is not movement. In fact, the only time the word "move" or "movement" occurs in the gate description is where it says "beginning of the Librarian's MOVEMENT phase." According to the rulebook "units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase." Since Gating is not movement, you are not disallowed from doing it. It did not say "models may not disengage during the movement phase" or "models may do nothing during the movement phase," only that they may not MOVE. Since they are disappearing and reappearing, not moving, they are not disallowed from gating out of combat.

The rules say infantry may "move UP TO 6 inches." That rules out moving 12" or 36", as they are not UP TO 6". Nice strawman though.

I'll probably take it with 10 Sternguard. Good place for Tigerius.

I've been very interested in investing in a Librarian/Sternguard combo for this tactic, but one big consern is when they deep strike in a pie plate - is it not common for them to become Ordinance fodder (assuming you haven't also invested in Epistolary & Force Dome)?

I don't understand the reasoning given by people who say Gate of Infinity cannot be used in close combat. The rules for the power simply state that it is used at the beginning of the model's movement phase. Whether or not the model can move is irrelevant--it still has a movement phase.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I've been very interested in investing in a Librarian/Sternguard combo for this tactic, but one big consern is when they deep strike in a pie plate - is it not common for them to become Ordinance fodder (assuming you haven't also invested in Epistolary & Force Dome)?

Of course that's true if you mindlessly place your figs on the table then mindlessly just move everything around willy-nilly. But any tactic must be adjusted according to the enemy, right? So if you're facing a Lash/Oblit, Whirlwind/Thundercannon SM list, IG Mech list, etc. it may be that you re-deepstrike behind some terrain or a disabled vehicle, etc. Or it may not be fitting to move them out of hth at all. Or you'll have to try harder to keep them out of hth so you don't have to worry about where to re-deepstrike.

Librarian and a dual assault canon or cyclone termy squad can be devastating. Combine it with the power that forces INV re rolls and you have a pretty good unit for taking out daemons or nob bikers.

My current list has this as its main strike force:

- Libby with Gate and Avenger.
- Chaplin Cassius
- Techmarine with full harness and PW(or thunder hammer depending on the points of the match)
- 5 man Assault squad with a flamer and sgt. with lightning claw and storm sheild without pack in a free drop pod upgraded with a deathwind launcher.

They all drop first turn in the drop pod together. Hits the enemy with 3 flamers, Avenger power, 1 twin-linked plasma pistol, and 3 bolt pistols. Second turn you blast something with the drop pod's pie plate and commence with various tactics with what is left of your squad and depending on the army you face.

Example turn 2's:
- Split the squad into an assault force (Libby and assault marines) and a tank hunter force (tech marine and cassius). The assault force can move, flame/avenger/pistols, then chrage. While the tank hunters go pound a tank with the tech marines PF's and perhaps even cassius' fist on rear armour or a krak nade (don't forget your re-rolls for the cahpy power), because they are tank hunting they will always be open to return fire next turn hence cassius's useful toughness 6 kicking for both models as he is the highest majority toughness and allows a chance of surviving for another turn to take another tank or rejoin your assault force.
- Nothing worth assaulting left in range due to your first turn of fire power. So use gate to get you near another target and flame again, minus avenger unless you use epistolaries.
- You got charged by the enemy's crack assault troops or something tied you up and the elites are on the way. Simply gate out to an objective or a defensible position or do as above to something else that is vulnerable.


This unit works great in conjunction with my 2 rhino's, 1 razorback and a vindi who are all rolling towards the enemy or objectives while they are concentrating on handeling this flexible mixed force. Necron warrior's fall to this tactic so well and generally are set up for a phase out on the second or third turn depending on how many the opposing player brought to a 1500 point game.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I've been very interested in investing in a Librarian/Sternguard combo for this tactic, but one big consern is when they deep strike in a pie plate - is it not common for them to become Ordinance fodder (assuming you haven't also invested in Epistolary & Force Dome)?

The pie-plate tossing death machines are usually the first thing that Sternguard make dead. Picture this:

1st turn, 2 squads of Sterns + Libby drop pod in, combi meltas make vindicator/obliterators/demolisher tank dead; maximum remaining pie plate weapons is now 1 (heavy support limited to 3)
2nd turn, teleport off/drop back in, same thing, all pie plates probably dead

Other 1200 points of your army mops up whatever's left over.

Regwon wrote:this is immaterial because the rules are exclusionary, meaning if it doesnt say you can do something, you cant.

There is nothing within the rules for Gate that would limit you in such a manner describing what you demand clarification for. If anything, we'd need clarification to say that you cannot use deep strike.

i can move regular infantry 6", but i cant move them 12" or 36", even though it doesnt say i cant.

The rules allow you to move models up to 6". 0-6 inches inclusive. Your statement is false.

it does not say you can remove them from combat (unlike veil of darkness) so you cannot. the fact that it occurs in the movement phase is also an indication that it is movement.

Interesting from a precedence perspective, but likewise there is no table-top teleport ability using deep strike rules that disallows teleporting out of combat. That it occurs in the movement phase is completely immaterial; running occurs in the shooting phase and Fleet rules apply in the assault phase.

Regardless, John Spencer has said that it's allowed in the assault phase, and although that doesn't rewrite rules in any official capacity, don't be at all surprised to see this used legally at events.

Watch out that a master of the chapter doesn't drop an errant space laser on your superexpensive supersquad thats all bunched up in a knot. Killing one vindicator and loosing 4-5 hundred points of marines is a bad tradeoff.

ShumaGorath wrote:Watch out that a master of the chapter doesn't drop an errant space laser on your superexpensive supersquad thats all bunched up in a knot. Killing one vindicator and loosing 4-5 hundred points of marines is a bad tradeoff.

Also works well with Stelek's Sternguard list (3x Sternguard with drop pods + deathwind launchers, 2 x librarians with gate)

Hmm, here's my dilemma. Under Movement, it states that 'a unit locked in close combat may not move in the movement phase'. Under the Deep Strike rule (which is how GoI works), states that '...and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase'. Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement, and a unit locked in combat cannot move, then wouldn't that mean that GoI cannot be used on a unit locked in close combat?
Can a Deep Striking unit fire a heavy weapon in the turn it arrives? No, why because Deep Strike counts as movement. Can I do anything else that counts as movement when locked in combat? I can't find anything in the rules that says I can.
Question: Where in the rules does it state that the rules are written as exclusionary? I could not find it flipping through the book.
Though above all, 'the most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree...' So regardless of how you view the rule, as long as the players agree that you can GoI locked in CC, then it's all good.

You're writing into the rules, just a little bit, in a way that completely changes the way that it can be read. You said:

Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement

No. Deep Strike does not count as movement. Units that deep strike count as having moved, a condition that applies after they have deep struck. It's a little change with a big difference.

The initiator of the Deep Strike is the Gate of Infinity. Gate of Infinity simply allows you to take your models off of the table, then deep strike in. "Taking your models off the table" contains nothing that indicates any sort of movement. They're there, in existence, then the hand of god shows up, and they're suddenly not.

sourclams wrote:You're writing into the rules, just a little bit, in a way that completely changes the way that it can be read. You said:

Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement

No. Deep Strike does not count as movement. Units that deep strike count as having moved, a condition that applies after they have deep struck. It's a little change with a big difference.

The initiator of the Deep Strike is the Gate of Infinity. Gate of Infinity simply allows you to take your models off of the table, then deep strike in. "Taking your models off the table" contains nothing that indicates any sort of movement. They're there, in existence, then the hand of god shows up, and they're suddenly not.

^^ This.

<remove from table> <stick over here> <roll for scatter>

That is gate of infinity. There is no "movement" there, they simply enter using deepstrike rules, which means they 'count as' having moved. There is no 'movement' at all in this power, and since it's not a psychic shooting attack it can be used in combat just like any other power. That it is used in the movement phase is simply there so that you don't move the unit and THEN deepstrike them somewhere, or vice versa.

ShumaGorath wrote:Librarian and a dual assault canon or cyclone termy squad can be devastating. Combine it with the power that forces INV re rolls and you have a pretty good unit for taking out daemons or nob bikers.

That is what I am doing. Give him a Storm Shield you are pretty safe against Vortex of Doom. And he is awesome.

Other uses I would probably take Tigerius for the extra powers.

Yes, and you only Deep Strike. You cannot Gate in, move and assault, for example. Boo.

I have been trying to think of other squads. I like the Assault Flamer squad. Here are other good ones:

Grey Knight Purgation with Incinerators.
Grey Knight Purgation with Psycannons. If you really, really wanted to. They have a Justicar.

I think normal Grey Knight Squads you want a second squad, instead.

You could give him a 20 strong squad of Sisters with or without a Cannoness.

Ditto an Inquisitor Lord, or even Lord Coteaz with the larger retinue.

Conscripts are out (except Apoc) but you could use Zealots if they are still allowed in your area/ group.

Dominions.

But my favorite use of them is 2 Cyclones + Vortex. Pure Awesome + it is anti-vehicle. Once you make your opponent hate you forever (which is likely the outcome, the more I think about it) they are still good in Turns 4, 5 and 6 to work the same way any other deep striking termie squad would. Purge and cleanse infantry off of objectives.

All in all, a cool unit in what could otherwise be a boring list/ game. Spasse Marinezz, woo!

Librarian + Lysander + 20 Sisters of Battle. Combine that with faith points and knock out entire squads at a time.

Good one! The only problem is, that footprint is absolutely monstrous. Locator beacons would be an absolute must and expect to lose 3 sisters a turn to dangerous terrain.

sourclams wrote:You're writing into the rules, just a little bit, in a way that completely changes the way that it can be read. You said:

Ok, so if Deep strike counts as movement

No. Deep Strike does not count as movement. Units that deep strike count as having moved, a condition that applies after they have deep struck. It's a little change with a big difference.

The initiator of the Deep Strike is the Gate of Infinity. Gate of Infinity simply allows you to take your models off of the table, then deep strike in. "Taking your models off the table" contains nothing that indicates any sort of movement. They're there, in existence, then the hand of god shows up, and they're suddenly not.

That, was a great analysis and has completely convinced me.

Also, my monster squad would be sternguard, +tigger+ lysander+ for ultimate killy, and almost not squishy squad.

The only realy weakness of the squad is mass bolter fire, but that is kinda nullified by the fact that anything that get close enough to use their guns is probably already dead.