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So, question, when a unit Deep Strikes, it counts as having moved, right?

Probably, yeah. And the unit isnt allowed to assualt in the assualt phase either. ..

Oo.. how about a relentless deep striking unit? With some heavy weaponary?

Libarian + bike + attack bike squad? (36'' range 2d6 multimetlas)

^^ + normal bike squad (w/ attack bike, plasma guns, combi plas)

Epi Libarian (forcedome + gate) + bike + command squad on bikes. (Lack of heavy weapons.. but a very mobile, surviveable nasty CC unit. Maybe)
Edit: Bikes can turbo boost for the 3+ cover save so its pointless to gate em. Ops.

Oooor legion of the damned + libarin w/ gate. Comes in a lil later but extremly mobile. Completely whoring the slow&purposeful rentless bit & eliminating the slow bit
- Add in lots of drop-pod tac squads with teleport homers and it could be really quite nice!

Razerous wrote:Probably, yeah. And the unit isnt allowed to assualt in the assualt phase either. ..

Oo.. how about a relentless deep striking unit? With some heavy weaponary?

Libarian + bike + attack bike squad? (36'' range 2d6 multimetlas)

^^ + normal bike squad (w/ attack bike, plasma guns, combi plas)

Epi Libarian (forcedome + gate) + bike + command squad on bikes. (Lack of heavy weapons.. but a very mobile, surviveable nasty CC unit. Maybe)
Edit: Bikes can turbo boost for the 3+ cover save so its pointless to gate em. Ops.

Oooor legion of the damned + libarin w/ gate. Comes in a lil later but extremly mobile. Completely whoring the slow&purposeful rentless bit & eliminating the slow bit
- Add in lots of drop-pod tac squads with teleport homers and it could be really quite nice!

Teleport homers don't work, they only work for terminators that "...wish to teleport onto the battlefield via deepstrike..."

If you stick a terminator librarian in with a terminator squad this tactic works though, and would be pretty wicked deadly though, and would work with the homers.

-edit: crap, i didn't read your post well, you said homers but meant locator beams, which does obviously work

So is it can tely outa combat or not with the liby?

Golga wrote:So is it can tely outa combat or not with the liby?

telying isn't movement, it's a "remove models, and place them using deepstrike," meaning it isn't disallowed by being locked in combat.

GoI is also a regular psychic power, not a psychic shooting attack, meaning there is nothing to disallow it being used while in combat.

There is also nothing in the rules themselves to disallow it from being used in combat.

Therefore, there is no reason to differentiate it from any other circumstance where gate can be used, so there's absolutely no reason to think otherwise.

The real question is what does it mean by "with" lol.

Doesn't it say in the movement phase? And doesn't it have to be in your turn aswell?

It's just that if a unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved, then a unit that Deep Strikes using the Gate of Infinity to leave combat counts as having moved out of combat...

And why is that? It specifically states that they count as having moved, but the situation the squad was in previous to the deep strike is irrelevant. The moment the squad is removed from the table it redeploys as if it was deep striking normally in all regards. Having counted as moved is a normal side effect of deep striking, not a special property of the gate. It doesn't conform to whatever kind of movement you would have had to do previously (such as from combat). If you gate out of terrain you don't count as having moved out of terrain, so why is it different here?

Nurglitch wrote:It's just that if a unit that Deep Strikes counts as having moved, then a unit that Deep Strikes using the Gate of Infinity to leave combat counts as having moved out of combat...

No, they count as having moved after leaving the combat via Gate of Infinity.

ShumaGorath:

Well, that's exactly it, a unit that was previously in difficult terrain counts as having moved out of difficult terrain if, via the normal Deep Strike rules, units count as having moved.

Sourclams:

Where does it say that?

Because Gate of Infinity doesn't count as movement.

And where does it say that the Gate of Infinity doesn't count as movement?

More to the point, where does it say that a unit using the Gate of Infinity can leave combat?

Gate of Infinity removes your models from the tabletop.

Where do you read any sort of movement in that?

Well, literally speaking, of course them models move.

But as far as RAW, the models don't move at all.

Yes, I am just parroting what much smarter people are saying about the subject

sourclams:

Well, pretty easily really, since all movement in Warhammer 40k involves taking models in one position, lifting them off the table, and placing them in another position.

But since you've failed to point out where, in the rules, it explicitly states that the Gate of Infinity does not follow the usual rules for movement, you've failed to give any reason why we do not apply those rules for movement.

Likewise you've failed to point out where the rules permit models to leave combat by using the Gate of Infinity. Curiously 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, and the Veil of Darkness all contain specific permission for models using those modes of movement to ignore the usual movement rules and exit combat. So...

Email John Spencer. If you can't see it, I'm not going to bother pointing it out to you.

sourclams:

So basically what you're saying is that you can't support any of your claims? Good to know that you've admitted that your opinion is wrong and unsupportable.

Nope. I just don't feel like slogging through the inevitable slurry of Nurglitch logic maps and flow charts to "persuade" you to see what's obvious and apparent.

Gate of Infinity pulls your models off of the table. That's that. Enjoy your life.

The models directly removed from the table and then replaced, have not moved. They count as having moved in subsequent phases but there is a difference.

sourclams:

So what's it like being incapable of justifying your opinions?

Yeah, except you have absolutely nothing to base that on except my reluctance to bother arguing with somebody whose actual grasp of 40k is so bad that his "tactical advice" is, without fail, utterly worthless. My lack of respect for your opinion is a result of your poor credibility. If you don't see it, I don't care.

Here, answer this guy's question:

The models directly removed from the table and then replaced, have not moved. They count as having moved in subsequent phases but there is a difference.

I honestly hope you waste a few hours of your life drawing up some gobbledygook like you usually do.

sourclams:

So you agree that the rules do not give permission for a unit to leave any combat they are locked in via the Gate of Infinity? Good.

Thank you, that's all we needed to know.

Email John Spencer. That's all I've got to say. His answer won't matter, either, since you don't actually play.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

So basically what you're saying is that you can't support any of your claims? Good to know that you've admitted that your opinion is wrong and unsupportable.

How is gating out of combat differentiated from any other gating though? Gating isn't movement, it's "removing from the table, then re-entering using deepstrike." That isn't movement. They don't count as having moved until they hit the table again, meaning that they weren't moving until they had already left combat.

Other powers may explicitly state that they allow teleporting out of combat, but they were also written for a prior edition of the rules. In 5th, there is nothing preventing GoI from teleporting units out of combat.

There also isn't much to support your theory that they count as "having moved out of combat." According to RAW they are "removed from the table," with no reference to movement. They then re-enter "using the deep strike rules." It isn't until this re-entering that there is any reference to movement, and the only reference is when you look up deepstrike in the BGB.

I've emailed John Spencer. The problem is that, like you sourclams, is that he doesn't justify his answer and, like you, comes up with an answer simply isn't supported by the rules.

As for my gaming group, we've agreed to play it by the rules, so because the Gate of Infinity makes no provision for moving a unit out of any combat that it's locked into.

Tactics-wise this means that if a unit is to escape combat, it needs to use its Combat Tactics to disengage on the other player's turn, so it's free to jump on the Space Marine player's turn.

The combination of a Librarian and Sternguard is still quite effective since Sternguard aren't fantastic close combat troops, and you can move them somewhere that they can automatically regroup if your opponent is trying to bird-dog your Sternguard off the table once they've fallen back from combat.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

The difference between using the Gate of Infinity when locked in combat and using it when not locked in combat is obviously the fact that a unit is locked in combat and that units locked in combat cannot move out of combat.

Since, when the unit uses the Gate of Infinity to return to the table they use the Deep Strike rules, that unit counts as having moved by the 5th edition rules, using the Gate of Infinity to leave a combat that the unit is locked into means that they count as having moved out of a combat, which is not permitted for units that are locked in combat, by the 5th edition rules.

Moreover all of the other rules such as 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, Veil of Darkness, etc, wherein a unit leaves the table and Deep Strikes includes an explicit permission to leave a combat they would otherwise be locked into.

Skyleap and 'Ere We Go, to take two examples, are written in 5th edition Codicies, the Eldar and Ork codicies to be precise. These are clearly written for the 5th edition because they contain references to 5th edition rules, such as Ghazghkull having a +2A bonus for charging instead of the usual +1 bonus for charging when Slow and Purposeful models in 4th edition to not get the +1A for charging and models in the 5th edition do.

Hah, wait, so you got an answer that works fine by the rules, but you didn't like it so you chose to ignore it? Okaayyyyyy. Play it however you want.

How is gating out of combat differentiated from any other gating though? Gating isn't movement, it's "removing from the table, then re-entering using deepstrike." That isn't movement. They don't count as having moved until they hit the table again, meaning that they weren't moving until they had already left combat.

See? This guy gets it as well.

Technically neither the ork nor eldar codex were released when the fifth edition ruleset were finalized. They aren't fifth edition codexes. They are just codexes that work well within the fifth edition ruleset because the designers had an idea what would and would not work elementally within a fifth edition metagame. Using them as examples is questionable at best.

This is an example of requiring an assurance when one isn't needed. You can't move out of combat in any situation. So having a unit that counted as doing so would require an even larger set of rules to clarify.

Nurglitch wrote:PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

The difference between using the Gate of Infinity when locked in combat and using it when not locked in combat is obviously the fact that a unit is locked in combat and that units locked in combat cannot move out of combat.

Since, when the unit uses the Gate of Infinity to return to the table they use the Deep Strike rules, that unit counts as having moved by the 5th edition rules, using the Gate of Infinity to leave a combat that the unit is locked into means that they count as having moved out of a combat, which is not permitted for units that are locked in combat, by the 5th edition rules.

Moreover all of the other rules such as 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, Veil of Darkness, etc, wherein a unit leaves the table and Deep Strikes includes an explicit permission to leave a combat they would otherwise be locked into.

Skyleap and 'Ere We Go, to take two examples, are written in 5th edition Codicies, the Eldar and Ork codicies to be precise. These are clearly written for the 5th edition because they contain references to 5th edition rules, such as Ghazghkull having a +2A bonus for charging instead of the usual +1 bonus for charging when Slow and Purposeful models in 4th edition to not get the +1A for charging and models in the 5th edition do.

Where does it say move in the 'gate of infinity' entry?
I look both pile-in and consolidation moves and guess what, it has the word 'move' in. If it does say 'move' then it means that the unit won't be able to move out of hth.
"While a unit is locked in close combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot"
Just quote it next time guys it's makes things easier for people to understand.

ShumaGorath:

The Ork, Chaos Space Marine, and Eldar codicies are 5th edition compatible, and include rules like Ghazghkull's Adamantium Skull that only make sense as such. Using them as examples is beyond reasonable doubt.

Speaking of being unable to move out of a locked combat, 'Ere We Go, Skyleap, and Veil of Darkness all specify what happens to the unit that is left when the unit with the special rule absconds from combat. Again, the Gate of Infinity makes no mention of what happens when the unit uses the power to leave combat. It makes no mention of what happens because it never happens.

Which is also why John Spencer's answer doesn't work with the rules. It's not simply the case that he makes up something that the rules do not mention, he doesn't even bother to invent rules to address what happens with these invented rules.