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storm knight:

The rules do not explicitly say that the Gate of Infinity is movement, but they do explicitly say that a unit that uses the Deep Strike rules counts as having moved. If, by the Deep Strike rules, a unit counts as having moved. And the Gate of Infinity allows a unit to be taken out of combat it is locked into, then it clearly follows that the unit counts as having moved out of combat.

Deep Strike occurs after the Gate of Infinity has already pulled the models off of the table.

It's so very, very simple.

Nurglitch wrote:storm knight:

The rules do not explicitly say that the Gate of Infinity is movement, but they do explicitly say that a unit that uses the Deep Strike rules counts as having moved. If, by the Deep Strike rules, a unit counts as having moved. And the Gate of Infinity allows a unit to be taken out of combat it is locked into, then it clearly follows that the unit counts as having moved out of combat.

page 11 of the BGB
"MOVING AND CLOSE COMBAT
Units already locked in combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

now gate of infinity:

"The librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

Now where you think the former makes the latter impossible is because of the "deepstrike rules," that stipulate that a unit "counts as moving." However, where does this actually come up in the rules?

page 95 of the BGB
"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Notice "in the shooting phase," meaning that for the purposes of the movement phase there is absolutely no reference to movement what-so-ever. They are removed from the table, then placed back using deepstrike. None of that is movement.

It is not until the shooting phase that they count as having moved, the only reference to movement mentioned at all so far, but at this point they are no longer locked in close combat (as they are obviously no longer locked in base to base with the enemy) so it is irrelevant. Notice that the rules for movement disallowed moving during the movement phase, they said nothing about during the shooting phase which is the only place this unit will count as having moved.

You say that "units deepstriking out of close combat count as moving out of close combat," but you give nothing to back that assumption up other than rules quoted out of context. There is absolutely nothing there to assume from any of the RAW that the unit deepstriking either counts as moving, or cannot gate out of combat.

It is simple. Yet you keep getting it wrong.

The Gate of Infinity does not permit models to be pulled off the table when they are locked in combat. Case closed.

But let's see what happens to the unit if they are pulled off the table when they are locked in combat.

The Gate of Infinity involves Deep Strike, and units that Deep Strike count as having moved.

If a unit counts as having moved, and the Gate of Infinity took them out of combat, they count as having moved out of combat.

So, supposing that we ignore the fact that the Gate of Infinity gives no permission for removing units from combat, and makes no provision for what happens to the units which they were locked in combat with, we end up in a situation specifically prohibited by the rules.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

So, the rules:

Moving and Close Combat:
"Units already locked in combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

So a units cannot leave combat by moving. Correct?

The Gate of Infinity
"This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

So you take a psychic test, and if it's passed then you take the models off the table, and then put them back on using the Deep Strike rules. It happens in the Movement phase...

Deep Strike
"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So Deep Strike happens in the movement phase, and these units may not move any further than their Deep Strike movement. So Deep Strike is moving in the Movement phase and disallows any further movement except disembarkation. Apparently Deep Strike is movement. Interesting.

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed."

So units that Deep Strike not only move, but they count as having moved in that Movement phase (makes sense that units that moved count as having moved), so the fact that the Deep Strike is movement not only counts for the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity, it counts for the part where the player takes them off the table and out of combat.

So it turns out that the rules support my argument that:

1. Deep Strike is Movement.
2. The fact that Deep Strike is Movement means the entire Gate of Infinity is Movement.
3. And you can't move out of combat.
4. The Gate of Infinity gives no permission to move out of combat, unlike other 5th edition rules like 'Ere We Go or Skyleap.
5. The Gae of Infinity makes no provision for what happens to units left behind by units that used the Gate of Infinity.

How about that?

The Point <--------


--------------------------> Gobbledygook

Nurglitch wrote:PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

So, the rules:

Moving and Close Combat:
"Units already locked in combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

So a units cannot leave combat by moving. Correct?

The Gate of Infinity
"This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back anywhere within 24" using the deepstrike rules."

So you take a psychic test, and if it's passed then you take the models off the table, and then put them back on using the Deep Strike rules. It happens in the Movement phase...

But it's not movement. There is no reference anywhere in the rules that it is movement, it is removing models and placing them back using the deepstrike rules

Nurglitch wrote:Deep Strike
"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So Deep Strike happens in the movement phase, and these units may not move any further than their Deep Strike movement. So Deep Strike is moving in the Movement phase and disallows any further movement except disembarkation. Apparently Deep Strike is movement. Interesting.

Okay where exactly are you getting this? From the word "further"? Is that seriously the crux of your whole argument, that they used the word "further"?

Nurglitch wrote:"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed."

So units that Deep Strike not only move, but they count as having moved in that Movement phase (makes sense that units that moved count as having moved), so the fact that the Deep Strike is movement not only counts for the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity, it counts for the part where the player takes them off the table and out of combat.

"counts as having moved" is different than "have moved." The rule is there to prevent using heavy weapons, or firing rapid fire weapons at maximum range. Note also that it is not until the shooting phase that they count as having moved before. In the movement phase, this "counts as moving" has not taken place. Since this rule is not in effect in the movement phase, you cannot extrapolate from it to infer that the unit was moving in the previous phase.

Nurglitch wrote:So it turns out that the rules support my argument that:

1. Deep Strike is Movement.
2. The fact that Deep Strike is Movement means the entire Gate of Infinity is Movement.
3. And you can't move out of combat.
4. The Gate of Infinity gives no permission to move out of combat, unlike other 5th edition rules like 'Ere We Go or Skyleap.
5. The Gae of Infinity makes no provision for what happens to units left behind by units that used the Gate of Infinity.

How about that?

1. This is a stretch of the rules, not taken from the rules themselves. During the shooting phase, the unit counts as having moved. During the movement phase, there is no such rule.
2. You already stretched the rules to imply that deepstriking is movement, how is something that ends with deepstriking also movement? The first half is removing the models. Removing models from the table does not count as movement. Deepstriking also does not count as movement
3. You can't move out of combat. Removing models from combat and placing them elsewhere through means other than "movement" is not disallowed.
4. There are no other 5th edition codexes, the marine codex is the first one. Other codexes are 4th edition, though they may have been written with 5th ed in mind
5. Those units are no longer locked into combat with an enemy now are they?

Nurglitch...I think you are missing a couple of very important points.

1. John Spencer has already given the answer (which most people agree with)

2. COUNTS AS having moved. You have used it in your argument many times yet missed it completely. Counts as having moved is not the same thing as moving. They make this clarification for the purposes of shooting, nothing more. If im using a proxy carnifex to represent my tyrant (ie it counts as a tyrant), does that make it an actual tyrant model...no its actually a carnifex.

lol. Gate works fine. There doesnt need to be a drawn out debate. The nay-sayers just do not need justification on such a simple wording.

Skyleap - they move outta combat. They can do it (its not related nor is it similiar) but I just thought id say it to prove a point.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

Actually, insofar as my argument that Deep Strike is movement and hence that using the Gate of Infinity is movement, the fact that the rules say:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So yes, the fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement.

If the rules said that a unit that arrives on the board by Deep Strike cannot move, then you might have had something to go on with regard to differentiating Deep Strike and movement, but they don't. They say the unit cannot move any further. Given that it cannot move any further, it must have moved.

Now, I've explained how the fact that Deep Strike being movement generalizes to the Gate of Infinity being movement. Engaging in Deep Strike means the unit has spent the Movement phase moving. The Gate of Infinity happens at the beginning of the movement phase, and the rules for Deep Strike specify that:

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Since the unit used the Gate of Infinity in the Movement phase, and the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity means that the unit counts as having moved in that Movement phase, the unit used the Gate of Infinity to move in that Movement phase.

Now since a unit cannot move out of combat, and the Gate of Infinity is movement, it cannot be used to remove a unit from combat.

It is beyond doubt that the Ork Codex was written for the 5th edition rules because it contains rules that only work with the 5th edition rules. Ghazghkull's Adamantium Skull demonstrates this. This same book also contains 'Ere We Go, which explicitly permits a unit to move out of combat and describes what happens to the unit(s) left behind in this manner. Same with Skyleap.

The Gate of Infinity does not give the player permission to move the unit out of combat. It does not describe what happens to the units it moves out of combat with. It does not contain the latter piece of information because it lacks the former!

So yes, the fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement.

Gate of Infinity does not count as movement.

Deep Strike occurs after Gate of Infinity has already broken the models out of assault.

So even if Deep Strike did count as movement, which you sure haven't shown, at all, it's still irrelevant.

But keep going, really.

Lukus83:

Yes, I know what John Spencer has said. Unfortunately he's wrong and (as usual) failed to give any worthwhile justification or reasoning for his answer. The fact that people agree with it is irrelevant to what the rules say. People can, and often do, agree on the wrong answer, so agreement is beside the point.

Now, if people want to play it that way, then by all means with your opponent's permission. But, and this is a problem for all of Mr Spencer's rulings, they're unofficial, contain no explanation, and have a tendency to be wrong.

As for the semantics of 'counts as', I would agree with you if I was arguing that because Deep Strike counts as movement that it is movement. But, as I have shown, Deep Strike is Movement by the rules, hence we can actually take all the references to 'counts as' to mean 'is'.

Razerous:

I agree. The fact that the rules do not provide permission for the unit using the Gate of Infinity to leave combat should be sufficient to settle the question.

But it hasn't, which is why I've provided what is often call an "argumentum ad absurdum", which is nothing to do with mocking an argument, but an argument to show that the opposite conclusion is contradictory.

If we assume that the Gate of Infinity gives permission to leave combat, that permission ends up contradicting the Deep Strike and close combat rules that say you can't move out of combat. That's the argument I've given above citing the rules.

Likewise, if we assume that the Gate of Infinity gives permission to leave combat, that permission ends up without any prescription for what the unit(s) left behind are supposed to do.

In combination, these arguments against the idea that the Gate of Infinity allows a unit to leave combat should be complete.

To whit:

1. The Gate of Infinity provides no permission for the unit to leave combat.

2. If we assume otherwise, that the Gate of Infinity requires no explicit permission for the unit to leave combat, then that assumption contradicts the rules for Deep Strike and close combat, since that assumption requires that the Gate of Infinity not be movement, and the rules for Deep Strike make it movement, and the rules for close combat prevent a unit from moving out of combat.

3. The rule lacks provision for units left behind in combat.

In summary, the rule lacks permission for the supposed action, assumption of permission derives a contradiction with the rules, and the rules lack any provision for what happens in the event of a unit moving out of combat.

sourclams:

According to the Deep Strike rule:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

Explain how these words do not state that Deep Strike is Movement.

The fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement. If they cannot move any further, then they have moved.

Gate of Infinity removes models from the table.

Full stop.

The models are already off the table, somewhere else, in God-Emperor-Land, before they deep strike.

There's where your argument breaks down completely. You're dead focused on 'Deep Strike' saying blahblahblah.

Prove that Gate of Infinity, the psychic power that initiates Deep Strike, counts as movement. It'll probably take you a really long time, so I'm going to patiently await the impending flood of digital enlightenment.

[John Spencer's rulings] have a tendency to be wrong.

As opposed to Nurglitchhammer, which as we have all been clearly shown, is totally great!

sourclams:

So, in other words, you can't actually explain how it is that the Gate of Infinity is not movement. I've already shown that the Gate of Infinity is movement:

Nurglitch wrote:Actually, insofar as my argument that Deep Strike is movement and hence that using the Gate of Infinity is movement, the fact that the rules say:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

So yes, the fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement.

If the rules said that a unit that arrives on the board by Deep Strike cannot move, then you might have had something to go on with regard to differentiating Deep Strike and movement, but they don't. They say the unit cannot move any further. Given that it cannot move any further, it must have moved.

Now, I've explained how the fact that Deep Strike being movement generalizes to the Gate of Infinity being movement. Engaging in Deep Strike means the unit has spent the Movement phase moving. The Gate of Infinity happens at the beginning of the movement phase, and the rules for Deep Strike specify that:

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Since the unit used the Gate of Infinity in the Movement phase, and the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity means that the unit counts as having moved in that Movement phase, the unit used the Gate of Infinity to move in that Movement phase.

Now since a unit cannot move out of combat, and the Gate of Infinity is movement, it cannot be used to remove a unit from combat.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

According to the Deep Strike rule:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

Explain how these words do not state that Deep Strike is Movement.

The fact that the rules say that units arriving on the board by Deep Strike cannot move any further, given the exception, is sufficient to conclude that Deep Strike is movement. If they cannot move any further, then they have moved.

The question is whether they count as having moved out of combat, and whether it violates the rule for moving units locked into combat.

"units already locked in close combat with the enemy may not move during the Movement phase."

when the unit is "removed from the table" combat is broken.

under the rules for consolidation "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy..." illustrates this. All enemies either being destroyed or falling back leaves the unit no longer engaged with enemies, and so no longer bound by the laws of close combat. This makes those rules that relate to units left behind by other non-standard breaks of close combat redundant.

Also, further does not mean that movement has occured. If a unit has moved nowhere, saying it cannot move further does not mean it moved in the first place. The rule is fuzzy, but are not strong enough to conclude movement. That deepstriking occurs in the movement phase is simply a result of there being no "deployment phase" once the game has begun.

The only rule that explicitly states that anything counts as moving does not come in until the shooting phase, and therefore has no effect on things that came before them.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:
So, in other words, you can't actually explain how it is that the Gate of Infinity is not movement. I've already shown that the Gate of Infinity is movement:

No, you keep quoting me the Deep Strike rules, which happen after Gate of Infinity has already removed the models from the table.

Pirate understands this, along with everybody else reading this thread.

You're still re-reading the Deep Strike rules to us as if we're 6 year olds without the main book.

Look at nurglitch getting all up in everyones mental minds.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

So, in other words, you can't actually explain how it is that the Gate of Infinity is not movement. I've already shown that the Gate of Infinity is movement:

He addressed your argument directly, though you have chosen not to address his response. Requoting your position doesnt make it any less incorrect.

Gate of Infinity explicitly consists of two distinct parts: (1) Remove models from the table, and (2) reposition them using Deepstrike rules. They occur sequentially. If you cannot demonstrate how the first part definitively counts as movement then your argument falls apart. By the time the second part happens the combat no longer exists, so there are no restrictions on movement. Quoting the rules for Deepstrike is irrelevant in addressing Sourclams's rebuttal.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath:

The Gate of Infinity is employed at the start of the Movement phase.

Supposing that a unit uses the Gate of Infinity to leave a combat that it is otherwise locked in, then it is neither destroyed nor falling back.

Therefore the Gate of Infinity is neither used at the end of the combat, since combats can only end in the Assault phase, and the unit leaving combat does not satisfy the conditions for when enemies leave a unit unengaged in combat.

So rather than making the rules in 'Ere We Go and Skyleap, regarding units left behind in combat, redundant, they are strictly necessary because units using those rules do not leave combat when it ends, have not been destroyed, and are not falling back.

Similarly, the prohibition on further movement does mean that movement has occurred. One cannot move further unless one has already moved. If something has not moved, we cannot prohibit it from moving further, because further is always comparative. To do something further, you always have to be doing something in the first place.

dictionary.com wrote:fur⋅ther
   /ˈfɜrðər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fur-ther] Show IPA Pronunciation
compar. adv. and adj. of far with superl. fur⋅thest, verb
–adverb
1. at or to a greater distance; farther: I'm too tired to go further.
2. at or to a more advanced point; to a greater extent: Let's not discuss it further.
3. in addition; moreover: Further, he should be here any minute.

This isn't fuzzy, ill-defined, or ambiguous. The use of a comparative adverb should make it clear that Deep Strike is movement, and that any conclusion to the contrary contradicts the rules of English grammar.

That Deep Strike occurs in the Movement phase and means that a unit that Deep Strikes has moved in the Movement phase is explicitly stated by the rules as cited above.

The fact that this is glossed as 'count as' movement in the shooting phase doesn't mean it isn't movement. Rather, it removes the complicated business of explaining a special type of movement called Deep Strike whereby a model is placed on the board without moving, which is rather important given the problems with Skimmers Moving Fast that previous editions encountered.

Gate works fine. You remove the models from combat .

Not because close-combat rules say you can move outta combat (infact, they say you cant move outta CC)

But because its a psykic power. It overrides the rules in the sense of you dont insert the power-description halfway into various rules in the BGB but you apply it after all the rules in the BGB.

The models are now removed from the table. As per instruction (Final) of the pyskic power. Then they return to the table using the deepstrike rule.

They (or he, if hes on his own) dont deep strike. As they dont roll for reserves. They return to the table as per deep strike rules. -- Not quotes exactly. Interpration.

I hope your a happy troll after all this, atleast.

sourclams:

Deep Strike is part of the Gate of Infinity. If you use the Gate of Infinity to Deep Strike and Deep Strike is movement, then guess what? That means that the Gate of Infinity is movement.

I've explained this:

Nurglitch wrote:Now, I've explained how the fact that Deep Strike being movement generalizes to the Gate of Infinity being movement. Engaging in Deep Strike means the unit has spent the Movement phase moving. The Gate of Infinity happens at the beginning of the movement phase, and the rules for Deep Strike specify that:

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase."

Since the unit used the Gate of Infinity in the Movement phase, and the Deep Strike part of the Gate of Infinity means that the unit counts as having moved in that Movement phase, the unit used the Gate of Infinity to move in that Movement phase.

If you feel like I'm reading this to you like you're six years old, consider that maybe it's because you're acting like a six year old.

Danny Internets:

How exactly is ignoring my argument addressing it directly? I have yet to see anyone explain how the argument I have posted is incorrect, although I've seen people besides sourclams actually act like adults and attempt to construct counter-arguments.

I have demonstrated how the first part of the Gate of Infinity is movement. Having demonstrated it, all I can do is either point to it and say: "There it is", correct people when they misunderstand what I have written, or attempt to clarify it for people.

Quoting the Deep Strike rules is necessary to show how the Deep Strike rules being movement generalizes to the entire Gate of Infinity rule. That is because the Deep Strike rules say that a unit that uses Deep Strike has moved in that Movement phase. Since the Gate of Infinity is used during that Movement phase, the only logical conclusion is that the Gate of Infinity is movement.

Let's put this another way: The Gate of Infinity happens during the Movement phase and involves the unit making a Deep Strike. The Deep Strike means that they have moved during that Movement phase. Since using the Gate of Infinity is what makes the unit Deep Strike, and Deep Strike is what makes the unit Move, the Gate of Infinity is what makes the unit Move during the Movement Phase. It is Movement.

It doesnt matter.

You do what the pyskic power tells you to do. You do it at the beginning of the movement phase. You remove the models.

Its like (maybe I think?) porting necrons through a monolith. You can do that when thier in combat (and you get to re-roll some of thier WBB saves.. bastards)

If your at the beginning of the movement phase you do whay it says. Being in combat aswell is moot. It doesnt need to be taken into account to follow the rules exactly.

You can use pyskic powers whilst in combat (It doesnt say you cant) Thats the only thing that could stand up in this arguement.

What else is there (following the above precedure) Nurglitch?

Nurglitch wrote:Gate of Infinity is what makes the unit Move during the Movement Phase. It is Movement.

Nope, wrong, false, find another dog because this one won't hunt.

Razerous:

I agree, you do only what the Psychic Power tells you to do, not what it doesn't tell you that you can't do. It doesn't say you can remove them from combat, so you can't.

The Monolith Portal, like the other rules, provides for the exception of pulling troops out of combat, and what to do when they are pulled out of combat.

When following the rules exactly, you have to follow all the normal rules that the special rule doesn't make an exception for, so the rules for Deep Strike and moving out of combat hold and must be applied.

sourclams:

Okay, so show me where the argument that I've stated goes wrong and how I can avoid what you consider to be an erroneous conclusion.

Woof

So I couldn't help but notice that no one, as yet, is able to show me where the Gate of Infinity says that you can use it to leave a close combat.

It doesn't need to provide permission, because there is no precedent of it's requirement. Deep striking isn't movement and removing models from the table isn't movement either. The rules were clarified in such a way in previous editions to determine whether units consolodated, swept foreward, or just stood there.

Now that ambiguity no longer exists, so the rule covering it needs no longer exist either.

Nurglitch you are making this needlessly and trollishly overcomplicated. If you want to troll through 10 years of old rulings to prove that conflictions exist congradulations, they do. You could probably prove that a unit can never shoot because of it's potential to shoot a rapid fire weapon in the same way. That doesn't mean that you should.

Except that there are precedents for the requirement of that permission:

Veil of Darkness
'Ere We Go
Monolith Portal
Skyleap

All have explicit permission to leave a close combat. All describe what a unit does after the unit it has been fighting has been whisked away.

Likewise the Deep Strike rules say Deep Strike is movement...