Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is kind of a rant.

Remember a few months ago I said I was trying to make a gender-balanced Ancient Chinese themed High Elf army?

Handmaiden auction prices climbed by 20$+ as soon as I started trying. The witch elves are metal and they aren't exactly suitable for the HE army I'm trying to build. The wood elf glade guard torsos don't fit spearmen very well, and the heads are really muffled anyways. Since I don't plan on playing in official tournaments or anything, where can I find some female-looking heads/figures? I'm already using a Reaper model for my mage, so I know I'm willing to try out other lines if necessarily.

I swear, swear GW is biased. It doesn't take much effort - honestly, and if other companies can make models that aren't totally slutty looking, then it can too. Topless witch elves aside, all of the female models seems to be either showing cleavage for no apparent reason (badly designed cleavage, at that) or have really unfeminine looking faces. I understand it's supposed to be war and all, and the females of the warhammer world won't be like manga heroines we see, but honestly. Some just look downright ugly.

I tend to agree with you.

But to be honest if a woman was pretty she wouldn't be in a war. That's why most of them are butta-faces.

Typeline wrote:I tend to agree with you.

But to be honest if a woman was pretty she wouldn't be in a war. That's why most of them are butta-faces.

First of all, what is pretty? Make-up? fake breasts? swim suits? tanned skin? Its impossible for a company, let alone a miniatures company to fulfill the quota that meets everyones expectations of "pretty". Secondly, war comes to everyone, regardless of your "looks".

The reason why GW female sculpts are soo butt ugly, is because the sculptors do not show an appreciation of the human form.....now you can get away with this (by and large) with the male form, which can be slightly bulky, and facial features can be harsh...but the female form, and facial features are not generally bulky or harsh.....its simply not typical, unless she is suffering from some kind of genetic disease or is physically deformed.....even most female body builders retain a distinct feminine quality.....

GW sculptors, as I mentioned before, have certainly developed a lot of skills over the years, but as I have said before, compared to alot of companies out their producing their own line of miniatures...GW is almost child-like (ignoring Jes Goodwin and the Forgeworld boys, of course!)

You're best off sticking to reaper, they do the best female faces, especially elves that actually look like elves.

Delephont wrote:

Typeline wrote:I tend to agree with you.

But to be honest if a woman was pretty she wouldn't be in a war. That's why most of them are butta-faces.

First of all, what is pretty? Make-up? fake breasts? swim suits? tanned skin? Its impossible for a company, let alone a miniatures company to fulfill the quota that meets everyones expectations of "pretty". Secondly, war comes to everyone, regardless of your "looks".

Come off your high horse. Women don't read this board for the most part so you really don't need to act like a valiant fellow questioning the definition of beauty. You know what I mean.

War also doesn't come to everyone, if people decided to invade another nation there are many who don't fight them. They just go about their lives in some capacity. You can lead an army to a nation but you can't make the people fight them.

There are also no black people in 40k the last time I saw a black guardsman was in third edition.

They create miniatures for their primary audience, that being teen to late thirties white males. There is some historical precedent for a lack of women in war, but thats not really why they do it, it's just easier to sculpt and release models of all the same gender and build preventing issues of oddly sized limbs and heads due to gender specific differences in size and shape. There are quite a few problems that can result in having gender equality in a line of customizable miniatures.

ShumaGorath wrote:There are also no black people in 40k the last time I saw a black guardsman was in third edition.

You can paint them black... and also

Arondight wrote:where can I find some female-looking heads/figures?

Hasslefree makes sprues of female heads and elven maiden heads you can use.
The GW wood elf archer sprues have some really well-done female heads on them, and the Mordheim Amazon line has sprues of female heads that are okay.

I liked the Mordheim Sisters of Sigmar models.

Escher punk girls...not so much.

See, Lore-wise, some of the most elite troops of the High Elves ARE in fact female - Maiden Guard of the Everqueen, for example. They've been retconned and removed from the game, alright. Fine. I like the models. I'll use them as Sea Guard or something. It didn't make sense at first, but then I realized something: The same reason why GW didn't bother make female elf bitz is the same reason why Space Marines can't be female. End of discussion.

As someone said, I just want some elves that look like elves. Is that too much to ask? Apart from Reaper's line, does anyone know anything else similar to that style?

Dr. Thunder: I tried wood elf torsos and heads for some Shadow Warrior conversions. All attempts at integrating head/torso into Spearmen/Archers have been met with critical failure.

Arondight wrote:Apart from Reaper's line, does anyone know anything else similar to that style?

Freebooter Miniatures also has some of the best female minis out there, and the heads and faces are top level.

ShumaGorath wrote:There are also no black people in 40k the last time I saw a black guardsman was in third edition.

Well, what did you expect from a bunch of Brits?

At least they have 1 Chapter (Salamanders).

Of course, other ethnicities fare not much better... The pseudo-Mongolian-themed Atillan got cancelled and replaced by Tallarn, while you hardly see the White Scars.

Thank goodness you aren't forced into GW paint standard in which everyone is a pasty white dude. You can paint your models in whatever colors you like, and should probably take advantage of this to enforce your vision onto your army. Maybe I'll give this a go with a box or two of the Catachans, once the new Guard book comes out next year.

Wouldn't the Atillans be based off of the Huns?

I like the Tallarn. More people should collect them.

personally I dont understand the whole "need to add" racial features in 40k.. Race is determined by a shared culture so unless the salamanders grew up in africa or US cities they're about the same "race" as native americans and the chinese

Skin pigmentation is just a result of intensity and amount of sun light your area has gotten over thousands of years

Honestly whenever I see historical or modern races thrown into a sci-fi game I first think "Stereotype" not "hey thats a good representation!"

Make them black, white, purple, yellow.. but dont make them like our current ethnic groups please.. The atillians make me think of southpark "those damned mongolians always breaking down my schitty wall"..cause they're just THAT BAD

I'd like grey pigmented or otherwise odd looking humans.

hmm I think they need to get sculptors for female models tank girl wasn't THAT bad looking

Typeline wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:There are also no black people in 40k the last time I saw a black guardsman was in third edition.

You can paint them black... and also

Its not exactly racist to point out the obvious target audience of the brand and the fact that I haven't seen them paint a black guardsman since third edition. They even retconned the salamanders into being drow, rather than being black as they previously were.



Seriously though, it's kind of a white guys club if you really look at official photographs.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Wouldn't the Atillans be based off of the Huns?

I like the Tallarn. More people should collect them.

Yes, and where did the Huns come from? Mongolia?

Not too many, or my Guard will seem too "common". I like that my army is rare.
____

Kirasu wrote:Honestly whenever I see historical or modern races thrown into a sci-fi game I first think "Stereotype"

Oh, come on, it's not like GW tries to be offensive in their racial carcaritures...

*cough*Last Chancers*cough*

Though they seem to do a damn good job even without trying...
____

ShumaGorath wrote:Seriously though, it's kind of a white guys club if you really look at official photographs.

Disappointing, really. I mean, how many variations of "pasty white" can one really do?

In the grimdark of the far future there are only manfaces...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:There are also no black people in 40k the last time I saw a black guardsman was in third edition.

Well, what did you expect from a bunch of Brits?

At least they have 1 Chapter (Salamanders).

In the late 80's early 90's all the artwork depicting Salamanders showed them as white. I have white dwarves from that time and a battle for Armageddon game, the Salamanders pictured are blond hair blue eyed types.
As stated earlier, there's nothing stopping anyone from painting non white armies and making up fluff for them, but the fact of the matter is, speaking of what I've seen in the U.S. and nowhere else, there aren't that many people going that route with their armies.
Perhaps if the game is played in Africa, you'd see a lot of black armies, in Asia, a lot of Asian types, etc., but I can't honestly say for sure.

The Emperor is Native American! Or at least he looks like it.

Not that that's much of a saving grace for all of Warhammer's monoracial tendencies.

Anyway, have you ever tried sculpting a female face? Really? For some reason, most men have trouble with female artwork (Without models to work from. And what woman honestly wants to dress up in a suit of power armor, even if she is being paid?), and it tends to look very...masculine. It's very strange, but true.

Relapse wrote:As stated earlier, there's nothing stopping anyone from painting non white armies and making up fluff for them, but the fact of the matter is, speaking of what I've seen in the U.S. and nowhere else, there aren't that many people going that route with their armies.

Perhaps if the game is played in Africa, you'd see a lot of black armies, in Asia, a lot of Asian types, etc., but I can't honestly say for sure.

Question: how many non-white players' armies have you seen?

I would imagine that the majority of non-white players' armies will feature similarly non-white models.

Chrysaor686 wrote:... And what woman honestly wants to dress up in a suit of power armor, even if she is being paid?), and it tends to look very...masculine. It's very strange, but true.

OTOH, Doctor Thunder has an entire Chapter of such women...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Question: how many non-white players' armies have you seen?

I would imagine that the majority of non-white players' armies will feature similarly non-white models.

There's also the issue of nomenclature with regard to paints. There are things like Flesh Wash, Dwarf Flesh, Elf Flesh, etc. that all clearly reflect a Caucasian complexion. As such, many people paint up a whole slew of fightn' whities because they just don't know how to pull off convincing renditions of other skin tones.

@dogma, totally agreed.

While Dwarf flesh is pretty good for olive complexions for Medierranean types, thankfully, GW isn't the only paint supplier. So one can branch out from there.

Chrysaor686 wrote:
Anyway, have you ever tried sculpting a female face? Really? For some reason, most men have trouble with female artwork (Without models to work from. And what woman honestly wants to dress up in a suit of power armor, even if she is being paid?), and it tends to look very...masculine. It's very strange, but true.

Are you suggesting that Jes had to get guys to dress up in power armour to get his sculpts right?

I think the sheer number of black-primer armies make up for the racial imbalance. At least, as far as I'm concerned.

And I vote Ariel for ugliest GW model ever. Anyone else?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Relapse wrote:As stated earlier, there's nothing stopping anyone from painting non white armies and making up fluff for them, but the fact of the matter is, speaking of what I've seen in the U.S. and nowhere else, there aren't that many people going that route with their armies.

Perhaps if the game is played in Africa, you'd see a lot of black armies, in Asia, a lot of Asian types, etc., but I can't honestly say for sure.

Question: how many non-white players' armies have you seen?

I would imagine that the majority of non-white players' armies will feature similarly non-white models.

It seems like we're on the same line of thought here, if I'm not mistaken. I'm saying that in a mainly non- white area, you'd have a good chance of seeing non white armies, and you seem to be saying the same thing. As far as seeing non white armies, I've only seen one army done by a Black guy and about 7-8 done up by Indians, Asians,or Hispanics. In 16 years of playing this game, that's not a whole lot. This tells me that in this area, it's a game played mainly by White guys. Around here, I know for a fact that Blacks, Hispanics and Asians are more into soccer than toy soldiers.
When I lived in New Orleans, back in the mid 80's, I only knew about 6 White guys, and that was because they did war games or studied at the same Kung Fu studio I worked out at. Not one of my non white friends were interested in gaming.

Doc Thunder is a pretty good friend of mine, and he does like running the female armies, alright. He has more than just the power armored female armies, though. He has a pretty mean IG female drop army that tore everyone up at an RTT tournament last year.

Color doesnt matter, I rather talk about females.

GW cartoony style of big heads/ huge hands/ no neck, thick arms and legs... doesnt really help to make a sexy 28mm model... other companies like freebooter and infinity made diferent styles of the human figure and much more apropriate for sexy chicks.

It doesnt mean that GW never did a sexy female miniature... theres some in their catalogue, they are just not that common.

I'm going to demonstrate my ignorance by trying to post a link here:

http://thunderboltmountain.com/serendipity/

Some interesting thoughts on sculpting women by Tom Meier, who has some truely excellent models (female and other) on his Thunderbolt Mountain website.

I've kind of given up on finding female models that suit my fancy. Some of the civilian type models from Copplestone Castings and the Wargames Foundry are ok, but most female models are either bizzare looking or slutty to varying degrees. I'd like to have models that looked like actual people, but there doesn't seem to be much of a market for that.

You guys are getting this ugly female models thing all wrong. You just need to put your beer goggles on. Maybe two sets, then everything looks fine.

I do agree though, with out the beer goggles they just aren't right.

I have to disagree with this though.

Typeline wrote:I tend to agree with you.

But to be honest if a woman was pretty she wouldn't be in a war. That's why most of them are butta-faces.

I would hate to have to fight these Ukrainian Ladies. Just please let them take me prisoner.