Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The issue is still "open" and the other thread was locked, so here we go. Less flaming, and more doomrider please!

This is Moz's argument

P1: The Movement phase and Assault phase are distinct, separate phases
P2: During the Assault phase, a unit moves using the rules of the Movement phase
C1: A unit will move in the assault phase following all rules for movement except those that are specific to 'during the Movement phase'
P3: All units move as infantry except when specifically stated otherwise in the unit types section

follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don’t say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry.

P4: Bikes may move up to 12" during the Movement phase (capital M, game term: Movement phase)
C2: Bikes will move at the speed of infantry during the Assault phase (6")

**************
The hang-up seems to be:
What does "follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don’t say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry" mean? Is moving 12" in the assault phase "following the rules for the appropriate unit type" for bikes, or is the lack of mentioning any assault rules for bikes meant to imply that we are to use the "basic rules for infantry."

Modquisition on:
1) Thanks Whitedragon for re-posting
2) Warnings were not given out in the closed thread. Please keep it polite and follow forum rules. Failure to do so will invite disciplinary action.
Modquisition off.


(no pieces of pie were harmed in the making of this post)

This is the argument I posted just before the previous thread was locked. The issue is exactly as you say: what constitutes the rule for infantry?

A. "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules of the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models." (pg 34)

There is a qualifying statement following A that lists some rules of the Movement phase. If we assume that this list is not exhaustive (and it is an assumption), we can conclude

B. Models move the same distance in the assault phase as in the movement phase.

We also have

C. "Infantry can move up to six inches in the Movement phase." (pg 11)

From B and C we can conclude

D. Infantry move six inches in the Assault phase.

Additionally we have

E. Bikes (and other non-infantry units) "follow the rules for the appropriate unit tpe, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the rules for basic infantry." (pg 52)
F. "Bikes can move up to 12" in the Movement phase." (pg 53)
G. No explicit statement about a bike's assault distance is made.

Argument 1. E, F and G tell us that we must use the rule for infantry to determine the assault distance for bikes. A, and hence, B, but not D, is the rule for infantry. From B, E, F and G we conclude that bikes assault 12 inches.

Argument 2. E, F and G tell us that we must use the rule for infantry to determine the assault distance for bikes. D, not A (or B) is the rule for infantry. From D, E, F and G we conclude that bikes assault 6 inches.

You can put forth various reasons why A(B) or D should be considered the "rule for infantry," but there is no clear answer presented in the rules. Personally, I think that the "most units" comment on page 33, the movement phase qualifier on page 53 (point F), the Eldar jetbike entry on 53, the DE FAQ (as pointed out by GBF), and the sheer unlikelihood of bikes being given a 12 inch assault in such a roundabout and ambiguous manner all suggest strongly that Argument 2 is the correct interpretation. It's not a deductive proof, but it certainly is a reasonable inductive conclusion.

so the answer in the dark eldar FAQ is inadequate?

bikes move 12 assault 6.

Well, the Dark Eldar FAQ states that Dark Eldar jetbikes assault 6 inches. It does not explicitly state that all bikes assault 6 inches, but to re-use my previous language, it strongly suggests it.

Yeah I really don't see why this was opened again. The DE FAQ is explicit.

G

So then do Jump Infantry move and assault 12"

Frazzled wrote:(no pieces of pie were harmed in the making of this post)

I like pie.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So then do Jump Infantry move and assault 12"

It specifically states that they only assault 6 inches in the description of their unit type.

This argument is mainly due to the fact that it does NOT say how far bikes assault.

Axyl wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So then do Jump Infantry move and assault 12"

It specifically states that they only assault 6 inches in the description of their unit type.

This argument is mainly due to the fact that it does NOT say how far bikes assault.

Then this kicks in: BRB p51

"follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don’t say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry."

OK, good.

But by default, unless specifically stated otherwise, don't Bikes follow the rules for foot Infantry?

So why wouldn't it be 6"?

@MOD- as to comment 4 up^^^^It wasn't me this time. I apologized.



WhiteDragon an excellent presetation. That puts the debate forward clearly and without bias.

Shirou, wonderfully clear break down and your summation it is one with which I completely agree.


I, again, apologize for my actions in the previous thread and will shut up now so that I may learn.

1hadhq wrote:

Axyl wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:So then do Jump Infantry move and assault 12"

It specifically states that they only assault 6 inches in the description of their unit type.

This argument is mainly due to the fact that it does NOT say how far bikes assault.

Then this kicks in: BRB p51

"follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don’t say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry."

I'm a bit slow, but doesn't that cover the issue? That seems to work does it not? That would cover the DE FAQ as well as it would be specific to DE jetbikes only and thus meets portion A of the above statement.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, good.

But by default, unless specifically stated otherwise, don't Bikes follow the rules for foot Infantry?

So why wouldn't it be 6"?

That's the whole point of the argument. The entry for bikes says they move 12". It makes no mention of assault, and the rule quote is "Follow the rules for the appropriate unit type......". Well, the rule for bikes says they move 12"!

What part of this statement do we follow? "Follow the rules for the appropriate unit type...." or "....and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry." I mean, "say anything different," what does that mean? Say anything different than what? That bikes move 12"? Or must they reference the assault phase? Why do jump packs specificially mention 6" but bikes do not?

How would I, as a brand new player, interpret this?

[quote=Frazzled
I'm a bit slow, but doesn't that cover the issue? That seems to work does it not? That would cover the DE FAQ as well as it would be specific to DE jetbikes only and thus meets portion A of the above statement.

The only thing the DE FAQ does is set precedence. It was a great find btw GBF. There have been at least 4 or 5 different ways to show Bikes assault 6". There has been only one speculative way of proving the opposing point and that from a sentence out of context. I only wish a poll would have been added in this thread when it was started.

Exactly. Rulebook says the general pattern absent a special rule. The DE FAQ is a special rule for DE bikes (I'm assuming there's a difference worth noting).

-Is movement stated in the bike rules? If yes, then follow the bike rule for movement.

-Is assault distance stated in the bike rule? If yes, use it, if no, default to generic infantry rule which is 6.

Sorry I'm not getting the issue here, but maybe its already been digested down to that level.

whitedragon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, good.

But by default, unless specifically stated otherwise, don't Bikes follow the rules for foot Infantry?

So why wouldn't it be 6"?

That's the whole point of the argument. The entry for bikes says they move 12". It makes no mention of assault, and the rule quote is "Follow the rules for the appropriate unit type......". Well, the rule for bikes says they move 12"!

What part of this statement do we follow? "Follow the rules for the appropriate unit type...." or "....and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry." I mean, "say anything different," what does that mean? Say anything different than what? That bikes move 12"? Or must they reference the assault phase? Why do jump packs specificially mention 6" but bikes do not?

How would I, as a brand new player, interpret this?

We follow both parts.
Its ONE line,not TWO.

"Follow the rules for the appropriate unit type...."
=> tells us we have to follow the rules on the following pages

..and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry
=> tells us we fall back on infantry if the rules in the appropriate entry doesn't state different to basic infantry.

Bikes do not have any stated assault range. Therfore bikes follow infantry in assault range.

Bikes get a different behaviour in terrain in their assault. So this is stated,because it is different.



can we have a poll?

whitedragon wrote:The entry for bikes says they move 12".

It makes no mention of assault,

OK, but that 12" move cannot be within 1" of any enemy model, meaning that you cannot Assault because at least 1 model would have to end up in BtB with an enemy model. Ergo, the 12" rule for movement during the Movement phase does not apply.

Then it follows the rules for foot Infantry.

Of course, if it were up to me, I'd get rid of bikes entirely...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

whitedragon wrote:The entry for bikes says they move 12".

It makes no mention of assault,

OK, but that 12" move cannot be within 1" of any enemy model, meaning that you cannot Assault because at least 1 model would have to end up in BtB with an enemy model. Ergo, the 12" rule for movement during the Movement phase does not apply.

Then it follows the rules for foot Infantry.

Of course, if it were up to me, I'd get rid of bikes entirely...

Well actually it states that they follow all rules for movement except the 1 inch rule. (edit: you were talking about the assault move right?)

Regardless though, I agree that it defaults to the standard 6 inch assault range as per infantry.

Yes it would be nice if GW would have stated things in a better and more clear fashion (or provided FAQs for these kinds of things). But without that happening, though I like the idea of 12" bike assaults for a White Scars army, the arguments for the 6" bike assault have greater support and sense.

On another point, in the old thread someone said that cavalry can assault 12". I'm not familiar with cavalry but it seems funny that horses could charge twice as fast than fast attack bikes. Of course it is a game and inconsistencies are abundant. That's life.

Ventus wrote:Yes it would be nice if GW would have stated things in a better and more clear fashion (or provided FAQs for these kinds of things). But without that happening, though I like the idea of 12" bike assaults for a White Scars army, the arguments for the 6" bike assault have greater support and sense.

On another point, in the old thread someone said that cavalry can assault 12". I'm not familiar with cavalry but it seems funny that horses could charge twice as fast than fast attack bikes. Of course it is a game and inconsistencies are abundant. That's life.

Yeah, I find it pretty funny that with good rolls my Hormagaunts could potentially move farther than a turbo-boosting bike. And still have made an assault.

I also only see the "follow the rules for movement" part as meaning just that, bikes move 12". Jumppacks and even jetbikes have specified assultmoves of 6 while bikes have not. Seems like pretty much RAW is 12.

1) RAW isn't 12. RAW = bikes assault ? inch.

Maybe read page 52 "different unit-types" about how you USE the entrys for unit types.

2) Cavalry Moves 6" but assaults 12", so they pace like infantry and speed up when assaulting. I think its a acceptable referance to
their behaviour as mounted infantry.

Someone find a way to justify bikes moving 12" in the assault phase... except ork bikes. I have a few tourneys coming up.

Why do infantry assault 6"?

Is it because that's how far they move in the movement phase and in the assault phase you follow the rules of the movement phase?
Or is it because the assault rules tells us that's how far most units can move during an assault?

For crying out loud. A second thread about the assault range of bikes? I really need my morning coffee now.
( My "vote" goes for the 6" argument whatever its worth. )

Webbe wrote:Why do infantry assault 6"?


Or is it because the assault rules tells us that's how far most units can move during an assault?

Yes. Because the "Different units" rule/box informs us that the rules so far all talk about infantry. Different units -- such as bikes, jump infantry etc-- have their own rules for each phase as explained in their rulebook entry. You appear to be under the delusion that what necessarily applies in the movement phase always applies in the assault phase. This is not true and is not int he rulebook.

Unfortunently they dont, also the summary of "most" units moves 6" doesnt in anyway override the rule "use the same rules as in the movement phase".

This is how I see this:

1) p.51 "follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don’t say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry." This means that all basic rules are used apart for the rules given in the Unit Type section.

2) Since there is no mention of the assault range we follow the rules for basic infantry.

3) In assault units move like they move in the Movement phase.

4) Basic infantry moves up to 6" in the movement phase.

5) Bikes have to follow the rules for basic infantry and therefor assault 6".


Here is the opposite view as I see it:

1) - 3) are the same.

4) Since Bikes move 12" in the movement phase they assault 12" in the assault phase.

5) Bikes are following the rule on p.51 when assaulting 12" since they assault as they move in the movement phase.

The reason I think this does not hold is that the rules specify that basic infantry assaults 6" (assault as move, move = 6"). So a 12" assault would violate p. 51 since it is not how basic infantry assaults.