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You say lazy reading, I say lazy writing. But, otherwise do we not agree?

We, unfortunately, live in the age of the disclaimer on the packaging. You have to say so clearly up front or people are gonig to use every trick they can to make it seem that they are not misusing the item. Then sue you for the damage that occurs from said misuse.

I would prefer to not to cater to said individuals but I'm not a multi-million dollar corporation trying to sell as much stuff as possible.

focusedfire wrote:You say lazy reading, I say lazy writing. But, otherwise do we not agree?

We, unfortunately, live in the age of the disclaimer on the packaging. You have to say so clearly up front or people are gonig to use every trick they can to make it seem that they are not misusing the item. Then sue you for the damage that occurs from said misuse.

I would prefer to not to cater to said individuals but I'm not a multi-million dollar corporation trying to sell as much stuff as possible.

Hell yes ...(Slightly of topic) i have an allergy to peanut so i always read the label ... the number of products that say 'may contain nuts' is maddening ... most of the time i just have to hope for the best

Democratus wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Again, unfortunently it isnt printed that clear. It only states "the rules for movement in the movement phase", not esp. from the section or any page references.(dont you think the fact that bikes move 12 in the movement phase isnt a part of the rules for the movementh phase?) The fact that the bike moves 12 in the movement phase most definently is a prt of the rules for movement in the movement phase even if not printed on the pages you suggest.

I think it is printed quite clearly, as do several other posters it would seem.

You appear to be confusing the additional rules for bikes in the movement phase with the basic movement phase rules. For the bike to assault 12"-- going by your logic-- it would need to state that units move in the assault phase exactly as they do i the movement phase. It doesn't say this, so you move them normally (6") modified only by the bike assault rules ( dangerous not difficult terrain).

It's the difference between THE rules, and THEIR rules.

By this logic, my Obliterators and Thousand Suns do not have to roll for Slow & Purposeful during an assault, as those rules are for the unit and not in the general movement rules. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

errr..what ? I don't think so. Not least as the S & P rule specifically makes mention of the assault move.

And from what I typed even it didn't, I fail to see how you could extrapolate what you have here. THEUR rules tel how how to move the models in accordance with THE rules in general.

What part of the Movement rules allows you to move one or more models in to BtB with an enemy model?

Because if you're going to argue that the Movement rules apply, then *ALL* of the Movement rules apply.

If you move into BtB, then you aren't following the Movement Rules.

If you don't move into BtB, then you aren't following the Assault Rules.

JohnHwangDD wrote:What part of the Movement rules allows you to move one or more models in to BtB with an enemy model?

Because if you're going to argue that the Movement rules apply, then *ALL* of the Movement rules apply.

If you move into BtB, then you aren't following the Movement Rules.

If you don't move into BtB, then you aren't following the Assault Rules.

I had no intention of posting in this thread again but I have to after reading this argument.

The quote from the assault rules are:

page 34 wrote:MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS
All of the models in an assaulting unit make their
assault move following the same rules as in the
Movement phase, with the exception that they may be
moved within 1" of enemy models.

Ignoring for a moment the pedantic arguments on the precise semantics of GW's (admittedly poorly written) text, let me ask this question.

Given that the vast majority of people on this forum would say that bikes assault 6" and given that I have never, in 3rd, 4th or 5th editions, in both friendly and tournament play, come across any player who has suggested this outside of the few people here - is it really worth carrying on this argument?

If you want to play at home that bikes assault 12" then fine, but you know as well as I that you won't find anybody doing this in pick-up games or at any tournament you care to name.

We know that GW's rules writing is carp, but after 2 dedicated threads and mentions of this elsewhere, its starting to smack of arguing for the hell of it.

edit: in case it isn't obvious - that's a flying purple monkey coming out of the rear end of a turtle pie which pretty much sums up my opinion on this thread and the other thread about bikes assaulting more then 6".

standard disclaimer: no turtle was hurt in the making of this picture, but I suspect he suffered some discomfort when the monkey came out in the first place...

reds8n wrote:

Democratus wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Again, unfortunently it isnt printed that clear. It only states "the rules for movement in the movement phase", not esp. from the section or any page references.(dont you think the fact that bikes move 12 in the movement phase isnt a part of the rules for the movementh phase?) The fact that the bike moves 12 in the movement phase most definently is a prt of the rules for movement in the movement phase even if not printed on the pages you suggest.

I think it is printed quite clearly, as do several other posters it would seem.

You appear to be confusing the additional rules for bikes in the movement phase with the basic movement phase rules. For the bike to assault 12"-- going by your logic-- it would need to state that units move in the assault phase exactly as they do i the movement phase. It doesn't say this, so you move them normally (6") modified only by the bike assault rules ( dangerous not difficult terrain).

It's the difference between THE rules, and THEIR rules.

By this logic, my Obliterators and Thousand Suns do not have to roll for Slow & Purposeful during an assault, as those rules are for the unit and not in the general movement rules. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

errr..what ? I don't think so. Not least as the S & P rule specifically makes mention of the assault move.

And from what I typed even it didn't, I fail to see how you could extrapolate what you have here. THEUR rules tel how how to move the models in accordance with THE rules in general.

The S&P rules are not in the Movement section - as mentioned above - and so don't apply during the Assault phase. Much like the Bike rules are also not in the Movement section. If one makes a clam that "only the rules in the Movement section apply" to claim bikes move only 6" then by the same logic all units in the game regardless of USRs or stats will move using only the rules in the Movement section.

The S&P rules are not in the Movement section - as mentioned above - and so don't apply during the Assault phase. Much like the Bike rules are also not in the Movement section. If one makes a clam that "only the rules in the Movement section apply" to claim bikes move only 6" then by the same logic all units in the game regardless of USRs or stats will move using only the rules in the Movement section.

Except that's not quite what I said. I said you apply the rules for THE movement phase, not the specific rules for the unit/model with regards to how far they move. You do also, as we discussed over and over again previouisly, apply any relevant rules for said units assault phase. Cavalry for example move 12" as they have an additional ruling. So when you move them you follow the rules for the movement phase, plus those for the assault phase and their assault phase rules. Bikes, as stated, terated difficult trerrain as dangerous, but that's it.

And again you seem to ignore the specific mention of the rule applying in the assault phase in the "skill" ( ... attribute would be a better term I think, but that's neither here or there) description.

...and bikes move 12" in the movement phase. Therefore they assault 12".

No, because the 12" rule is in the bikes movement phase rules which don't apply except in the movement phase.

Again it's the difference between THE movement rules and THEIR movement rules.

Just as there are THE assault rules and THEIR assault rules.

Point of fact: Slow and Purposeful actually says in it's rules that it is in effect for assault phase movement as well. So the argument that if you only apply rules from the Movement Phase and not their movement phase would exclude S&P is moot because S&P is specific.

Even if you were to apply the rules from the unit entry's movement phase section in assault, the fact that "Bikes may move up to 12" in the movement phase." Has no bearing whatsoever on the assault phase. If it merely said that "Bikes move 12", I can see it there being an argument. The "in the movement phase" part limits their 12" movement to only that phase.

I agree with the idea that you use THE movement phase rules, and Their assault rules for assault movement.


Even if it were the other way, my logic order with using Their movement phase rules in Assault is:

Movement phase:
move up to 12.

Assault phase:
check rules from movement phase and use them.
Rule says they may move up to 12 in the movement phase.
Assault phase movement is not in the movement phase.


Why the Jump Infantry specifically calls out they can only assault 6"? Probably because in the movement phase they can move as infantry (affected by difficult terrain) or with jump packs (ignoring difficult terrain), and it was placed for clarification. But that's just a guess and the world may never know.

My 2 cents after watching this rage for so long.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:... its starting to smack of arguing for the hell of it.

Precisely the truth about this topic. As the subject has been a case closed after the original thread. Anyone continuing to argue for bikes assaulting 12" is just arguing for the hell of it. Can somebody please lock this thread now?

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Iits starting to smack of arguing for the hell of it.

"starting"?

I've been arguing for agument's sake ever since I started into this stupid thread.

Which is why it is time for more pie:

I liek pie!

hmm...so then, if we are to believe that for some reason bikes can assault 12", doesn't that pretty much mean that Jetbikes can too? Well then, I guess that means I can move my wraiths and destroyers 12" in assault, because they are Jetbikes!

Seriously though, there is no way bikes move 12"...ESPECIALLY since the only "proof" for the pro-12" argument is that "you follow the same rules as the movement phase" which I think the REST OF US agree means the following:
-Physically move the models the distance they are allowed to
-Watch out for terrain, tests, etc.
NOT meaning how far they can move, but just HOW that movement works.

Two questions regarding the flying purple monkey rule -

Do the monkeys assault 6 or 12 inches?

Does the disembarkation of the model's butt have an impact on the move? For instance if the model moves during the movement phase, can the purple monkeys disembark and move, or merely disembark within 2 inches of the exit sphincter?

Flying purple monkeys (FPM) can do whatever you want them to do. Since there are no rules for FPMs you can have them assualt 0" to 5,000,000,001.089573263".

They can touch any model they wish and that model dies, or using their super secret power they merely have to be facing the enemy (with either their face or butt) and the enemy dies - no save or any kind, just remove the model, do not pass Go! and do not collect $200. The can do this during any phase of the game whether they are on the table or 500 miles away (including your opponent's turns). They may also do this as many times per turn as they wish.

They are scoring troops which do not take space on the FOC. They can capture objectives even if they are not on the table and even if you have a unit on the objective the FPMs still count as controlling the objective and you do not count as controlling or contesting.

However, you must maintain during any discussion with your opponent about the FPMs' rules that you use tactics and it's only through your sheer godlike (nay, beyond godlike) intellect that you are able to win games versus a lowly slug like them.

They cost 1 point per unit but provide a free sideboard of 2000 points which may enter play at anytime (even during your opponent's turn - what part of "anytime" don't you understand? ). They are available to any army (which includes but is not limited to SM, CSM, Orks, Tau, Panzees, Dark Panzees, Deamons, IG, LatD, Lizardmen, Pansies, Dark Pansies, Stunties, O&Gs, Brets, Empire, Ogres, Necromunda gangs, Mordhiem gangs, Bloodbowl teams, BFG fleets, D&D, *insert random tabletop game of your choice*, not applicable in all states, void in Tazmania, null and void if you or any person you ever meet is a chod).

Despair and fear the power of the FPMs!

bikes move 12 assault 6.

Bikes move 12, assault 12 gajillion. It is time for the 12 years of anti-bike tyrnanny to come to an end. Rally around the 12 inch assaulting bike my bike loving friends!!!!