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Kallbrand wrote:Unfortunently they dont, also the summary of "most" units moves 6" doesnt in anyway override the rule "use the same rules as in the movement phase".

Errr.. they do, hence the words under each heading. That's the only reason bikes can move 12".

Use the same rules means use the same rules from the movement section, not the individuals rules for the movement phase it is not the movement phase it is the assault phase and they have different rules for that phase. Bikes for example don't have a rule that lets them move 12" in the assault phase.

Kallbrand wrote:Unfortunently they dont, also the summary of "most" units moves 6" doesnt in anyway override the rule "use the same rules as in the movement phase".

Before you post again, please review the 'rules' in the Movement phase located on pages 11 - 14.

As you will read. *All* the rules in the Movement phase *are* infantry rules.

So, "following the same rules in the movement phase" is literally telling you to move as infantry.

Pg 51 then tells you to do the same, but to follow any special rules found in each specific unit type section.

Why oh why does some people claim "following the same rules in the Movement phase" means they get to move 12" is beyond me. Because there is no 'rule' in the movement phase that tells you to do this, only 6".

The *only* place that tells us that bikes can 'move in the movement phase' 12" is found on pg 52 (bike section) that is allowed to follow that 12" move because of a rule found on Pg 51.

Not, and I say again, not anything from the movement rules say anything that the OP from the last and now closed forum post says it does.

Please everyone (mainly the 12" assault backers) read the darn rulebook before posting.

Modquisition on:
-As a reminder this is the second thread. Please keep it polite or action will be taken.

Modquisition off.

Move 12, Assault 6.
unless you play under the covers with a flashlight at night, then you get unlimited move and assault. Hooray!

Turn the Modquisition back on!

G

You've been bad GBF. No Modquisition for you!

awe man...



G

focusedfire wrote:@MOD- as to comment 4 up^^^^It wasn't me this time. I apologized.



WhiteDragon an excellent presetation. That puts the debate forward clearly and without bias.

Shirou, wonderfully clear break down and your summation it is one with which I completely agree.


I, again, apologize for my actions in the previous thread and will shut up now so that I may learn.

Not pointing at anyone here, just keeping a lid on this one.

And for those who reported a slanderous use of pie **cough cough** The pie has just begun to fly!

Again, unfortunently it isnt printed that clear. It only states "the rules for movement in the movement phase", not esp. from the section or any page references.(dont you think the fact that bikes move 12 in the movement phase isnt a part of the rules for the movementh phase?) The fact that the bike moves 12 in the movement phase most definently is a prt of the rules for movement in the movement phase even if not printed on the pages you suggest.

@Kallbrand: As above, the rules for movement in the movement phase say you can't move within 1" of an enemy model. Therefore you cannot make a 12" assault move.

I think the big issue here is that p. 51 says that rules for basic infantry should be used if the Unit Type section does not specify otherwise. Basic infantry is a very well defined term that it does not have 12" move and therefor not 12" assault. The wording is clear that if a Unit Type is to deviate form this norm a rule in the section has to specify it, just like it does for the 12" move for Bikes. If nothing is specified the rules for basic infantry apply.

Kallbrand wrote:Again, unfortunently it isnt printed that clear. It only states "the rules for movement in the movement phase", not esp. from the section or any page references.(dont you think the fact that bikes move 12 in the movement phase isnt a part of the rules for the movementh phase?) The fact that the bike moves 12 in the movement phase most definently is a prt of the rules for movement in the movement phase even if not printed on the pages you suggest.

I think it is printed quite clearly, as do several other posters it would seem.

You appear to be confusing the additional rules for bikes in the movement phase with the basic movement phase rules. For the bike to assault 12"-- going by your logic-- it would need to state that units move in the assault phase exactly as they do i the movement phase. It doesn't say this, so you move them normally (6") modified only by the bike assault rules ( dangerous not difficult terrain).

It's the difference between THE rules, and THEIR rules.

I think GW would have done well by simply putting ...

Movement phase
Move 12" are not slowed by Difficult terrain but must take a dangerous terrain test
Assaulting Phase
Move 6" are not slowed by Difficult terrain but must take a dangerous terrain test

... No question what happens ... not open to interpretation

In order to get some closure for this issue, why don`t you just up a poll? The arguments are pretty much clear at this point.
If the poll shows a split into roughly 50/50 then there clearly is confusion about the assault range among players but something like 90/10 should close this case.

A-P wrote: In order to get some closure for this issue, why don`t you just up a poll? The arguments are pretty much clear at this point.
If the poll shows a split into roughly 50/50 then there clearly is confusion about the assault range among players but something like 90/10 should close this case.

Because unfortunately, rules are not decided by committee in that way.

If the rules state one thing, it doesn't matter if 90% of people think something else - they work the way they work.

Personally, I believe bikes are supposed to only assault 6". But I haven't carefully re-read the relevant sections of the rules, and assuming the quotations on this thread are correct, I can see the logic behind the 12" argument.

Thankfully I don't anticipate the case being argued in any game I play, and there's no way I will charge more than the 6".

Aelyn wrote:

Because unfortunately, rules are not decided by committee in that way.

If the rules state one thing, it doesn't matter if 90% of people think something else - they work the way they work.
.

any one have a reply from askyourquestion@games-workshop.com ?

I think Moz's original conclusion sums this up rather nicely why bikes assault 6". I was attempting to show the other side of the argument as a devil's advocate. While both interpretations may be valid, I think everyone can agree that the 6" assault is a much stronger position.

As for a poll, as many have already said, rules are not decided by committee.

The discussion of the wording of the rules is interesting although I don't think there's any doubt that bikes assault 6".

At any rate, bikes will be assaulting 6" in any tournament rules judged by me (and I'm co-judging a big one in April.)

I notice that Augustus' most ardent fervor in regard to this topic has apparently waned.

G

Tri wrote:any one have a reply from askyourquestion@games-workshop.com ?

not yet but i tried on Monday.

Keep it rocking all night long.

G

I am amazed there was even one post about how far bikes move, outside of a newbie player learning the rules.

You people seriously argued this for one thread, and then started another?

WoW!

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

You people seriously argued this for one thread, and then started another?

Beats working right ?

I still like pie.

With turtles.



Edit: no turtles were harmed in the making of this picture, though it did try to assault more then 6" .

reds8n wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Again, unfortunently it isnt printed that clear. It only states "the rules for movement in the movement phase", not esp. from the section or any page references.(dont you think the fact that bikes move 12 in the movement phase isnt a part of the rules for the movementh phase?) The fact that the bike moves 12 in the movement phase most definently is a prt of the rules for movement in the movement phase even if not printed on the pages you suggest.

I think it is printed quite clearly, as do several other posters it would seem.

You appear to be confusing the additional rules for bikes in the movement phase with the basic movement phase rules. For the bike to assault 12"-- going by your logic-- it would need to state that units move in the assault phase exactly as they do i the movement phase. It doesn't say this, so you move them normally (6") modified only by the bike assault rules ( dangerous not difficult terrain).

It's the difference between THE rules, and THEIR rules.

By this logic, my Obliterators and Thousand Suns do not have to roll for Slow & Purposeful during an assault, as those rules are for the unit and not in the general movement rules. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

The difference Democratus, is that there is a special rule to which we can refer clearly stated in your unit descriptions. That being the slow and purposeful rule.

There is no such rule for the bikers. This was an attempt to manufacture a special rule without it being clearly stated.

I do feel GW could have written it a little better.

focusedfire wrote:The difference Democratus, is that there is a special rule to which we can refer clearly stated in your unit descriptions. That being the slow and purposeful rule.

There is no such rule for the bikers. This was an attempt to manufacture a special rule without it being clearly stated.

I do feel GW could have written it a little better.

I think its just the bad case of lazy reading. Honestly, anyone who thinks "the rules for movement in the movement phase" means that whatever your move rate is, is also your assault rate has just proven that they haven't read pages 11 - 14 (the Movement Phase).

The Movement phase rules *are* rules for moving infantry and *nothing* else. There are no rules for bikes, vehicles, cavalry, monstrous creatures, or any other type of unit you can think of besides infantry.

So, "the rules for movement in the movement phase" is literally telling the reader the move as infantry. I fail to see why this was ever brought up, or why this somehow deserved a second thread.

why a bring this up? easy .. when some one say "but the rules say 12" we can all can go "no, because X says so" ... I don't know about most people here at dakka but i only read the basic rules a couple of times and then just worked from memory .. the rules are not hard and they've not change much in 3 addition .. but i cannot quote the good book word for word

The Purple Monkey rule always coms to mind when i read these silly "easter egg" in the rulebook kind of posts. It usually comes up when someone says something like" Well, nowhere in the rules does it say I can't do X"

The purple monkey rule simply states that flying purple monkeys fly out of all my models' butts and inflict d6 str D hits on every model within 36 inches. Because nowhere in the rulebook or codex does it say I Can't.

In this case, if someone seriously thought they could try and pull this on me, I would say OK, show me where it says they can assault 12. Do you guys really think GW wouldn't mention in every single one of its battlereports, in every single media blurb describing bikes, the fact that they can assault 12? Thats like omitting the fact that a Land Raider is armor 14 in every single description in the history of land raiders.

No, its just wishful thinking by mouthbreathers trying to find an easter egg in the rules, as if GW and Phil Kelly wrote a Da Vinci-code-esque book, full of special rules, that can only be unlocked by careful reading and manipulation. The rulebook isn't a law text, its a FRIGGING RULEBOOK FOR A GAME OF TOY SOLDIERS.

Bikes assault 6 inches.