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**JohnHwangDD**

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090129/ap_on_re_eu/davos_forum;_ylt=AkQXTO.OSUI1q6DRGuoNPghvaA8F

Turkish PM admonishes Israel president over Gaza
Associated Press

DAVOS, Switzerland – Turkey's prime minister stalked off the stage at the World Economic Forum red-faced Thursday after reproaching Israel's president over the Gaza offensive by saying "You kill people."

The packed audience, which included President Barack Obama's close adviser Valerie Jarrett, appeared stunned as Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Israeli President Shimon Peres raised their voices and traded accusations.

Peres was passionate in his defense of Israel's three-week offensive against Hamas militants, launched in reaction to eight years of rocket fire aimed at Israeli territory. As he spoke, Peres often turned toward Erdogan, who in his remarks had criticized the Israeli blockade of Gaza, saying it was an "open air prison, isolated from the rest of the world" and referred to the Palestinian death toll of about 1,300, more than half of those civilians. Thirteen Israelis also died.

"Why did they fire rockets? There was no siege against Gaza," Peres said, his voice rising in emotion. "Why did they fight us, what did they want? There was never a day of starvation in Gaza."

The heated debate with Israel and Turkey at the center was significant because of the key role Turkey has played as a moderator between Israel and Syria. Erdogan appeared to express a sense of disappointment when he recounted how he had met with the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert days before the offensive, and believed they were close to reaching terms for a face-to-face meeting with Syrian leaders.

Obama's new Mideast envoy, George Mitchell, will be in Turkey for talks Sunday.

Erdogan was angry when a panel moderator cut off his remarks in response to an impassioned monologue by Peres defending Israel's offensive against the Hamas rulers of Gaza.

"I find it very sad that people applaud what you said," Erdogan said. "You killed people. And I think that it is very wrong."

The angry exchange followed an hour-long debate at the forum attended by world leaders in Davos. Erdogan tried to rebut Peres as the discussion was ending, asking the moderator, Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, to let him speak once more.

"Only a minute," Ignatius replied.

"Mr. Peres, you are older than me. Your voice is too loud," Erdogan told Peres, saying his emotion belied a guilty conscience.

"You kill people," Erdogan told the 85-year-old Israeli leader. "I remember the children who died on beaches. I remember two former prime ministers who said they felt very happy when they were able to enter Palestine on tanks."

When Erdogan was asked to stop, he angrily stalked off, leaving fellow panelists U.N. Secretary-General Ban-Ki moon and Arab League Secretary Amr Moussa.

"When it comes to killing, you know it too well," the Turkish leader said.

When the moderator tried to cut short Erdogan's remarks, saying it was past time to adjourn for dinner, he answered in frustration, "Don't interrupt me. You are not allowing me to speak."

He then said: "I will not come to Davos again."

Ultimately, Erdogan stressed he left not because of a dispute with Peres but because he was not given time to respond to the Israeli leader's remarks. Erdogan also complained that Peres had 25 minutes while he was only given 12 minutes.

"I did not target at all in any way the Israeli people, President Peres, or the Jewish people," Erdogan told a news conference afterward.

"I am a prime minister, a leader who has specifically expressly stated that anti-Semitism is a crime against humanity," he said.

Peres and Erdogan raised their voices — highly unusual at the elite gathering of corporate and world leaders, which is usually marked by polite dialogue.

Moussa, a former Egyptian foreign minister, said Erdogan's action was understandable.

"Mr. Erdogan said what he wanted to say and then he left. That's all. He was right." Of Israel, he said, "They don't listen."

Erdogan brushed past reporters outside the hall. His wife appeared upset. "All Peres said was a lie. It was unacceptable," she said, eyes glistening.

"I have know Shimon Peres for many years and I also know Erdogan. I have never seen Shimon Peres so passionate as he was today. I think he felt Israel was being attacked by so many in the international community. He felt isolated," said former Norwegian Prime Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik.

"I was very sad that Erdogan left. This was an expression of how difficult this situation is."

Earlier Thursday, Israeli election front-runner Benjamin Netanyahu told another session that keeping nuclear weapons out of Iran's hands was more important than the economy because the financial meltdown is reversible.

"What is not reversible is the acquisition of nuclear weapons by a fanatic radical regime ... We have never had, since the dawn of the nuclear age, nuclear weapons in the hands of such a fanatical regime," said Netanyahu, who is seeking to return to the Israeli prime minister's office.

Iran maintains that it is seeking nuclear power for peaceful purposes and not for a weapons program.

An Iranian official in Davos appeared to extend a hand to the Obama administration as discussion broadened to include Iran, oil and what might be expected from the new leaders in Washington.

Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said Tehran would take a "cooperative approach" with the U.S. as long as it saw changes that go beyond words.

"We do believe that if the new administration of the United States, as Mr. Obama says, is going to change its policies not in saying but practice, they will find in the region a cooperative approach and reaction," Mottaki said.

Obama has stressed the importance of engaging Iran, a country the Bush administration often singled out as the most dangerous in the Middle East.

I understand that the Israeli President will be giving a lecture on the Turkish Genocide against the Armenians tomorrow, to be followed by a brief discussion of the ongoing Turkish campaign against the Kurds...

**sebster**

Yeah, that’s a tough one. Because when Peres said there was no siege on Gaza, he was lying. But then again, Turkey still won’t admit to what it did in Armenia.

So Erdogan was right, but he had no right to say it. Or something like that.

**Destrado**

8 years of rockets against the israeli? Without any reason at all? -_-'

Like, I remember since I was a toddler of hearing about the conflict. I know neither side is right, but I think that the suicide bombings were probably the only way those people had of getting a payback.

13 israeli died, some of which civilians. Now, how many palestinians died? I think that one dead israeli equates to 100 dead palestinians, be them Hamas, military or civils.

Given the deathtoll I think I can imagine who has the power to stop it, but as it has been said by wiser men, "they don't listen".

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Oh I'd say the illegal occupation of your lands, the nasty Bully next door putting extreme limits on even the most basic of your necessities is some kind of reason.

Justification? No, of course not. But when you look at it from their point of view, it is easy to understand why some (note not all. They are human beings after all, a species which mostly would like to live in peace with their various neighbours) get pissed off the point of taking up arms.

Then we have the vicious circle entering.

And not only did Israel cause a 100-1 casualty ratio, but 40%...thats right....40% of the Palestinians killed during the action were children. I don't care who you are, that is not on.

**JohnHwangDD**

But, at least the UN mission was OK, right?

Oh, wait...

**Frazzled**

The whole concept of proprtionality is not sane, nor is it historical. Its effectively the bad guys saying

"We only launched one rocket into your city to kill people because we didn't have the means to launch 100. Why did you launch 100 at us?"

Here's the problem with the pro-Gaza side. The day the Israelis pulled out of Gaza years ago, terrorists moved into rocket range and started firing rockets into southern Israel. On the same day.

Gaza was the test case to see if Israel could successfully pull out of the situation. The next steps were going to be complete separation. But the terrorists/freedom fighters whatever you want to call-started attacking Israel proper on the same day. In contrast, when Israel went into the West bank to stop the Intifada II it stopped that, cold. Putting tanks on top of Arafat's bunker was more effective then all the talky talky.

I'm all for Israel completely leaving Gaza and the West Bank territories. Complete separation as Hamas calls for. Leave them to join with Egypt/Jordan, or become their own little country. But at the same time, the moment a rocket comes out of either of those areas, I'd treat them as foreign powers Monghol style. And it will happen. Hamas has no interest in a peaceful outcome. Its masters if Iran have no interest in a peaceful outcome, or the hardliners lose power.

After all, Israel is not in Lebanon, yet continues to be attacked.

**Ensis Ferrae**

I think i'm with Fraz on this one.. I have been watching news coverage of this most recent incursion into Gaza intently, and I find it funny that for all this time, rockets have been fired out of Gaza for years, but that NEVER made the news. But as soon as Israel takes action, OMG!!! theyre attacking!!!! the whole news world goes insane, saying how evil Israel is for doing this, and on and on.

i liken the situation to sitting on your porch with bees flying around your head... there comes that point where you just have to get up, and take care of the bees nest.

I have yet to see a single Islamic-extremist group that wants to reach any agreement peaceably, they'd rather die disillusioned in thinking that they will be martyrs. (please note, i only say islamic-extremists, as theyre the ones on the news nowadays, i realize that there are extremists in most every walk of life)

**JohnHwangDD**

I have no problem with Israel defending itself vigorously.

I even have no problem with Israel (or the US) torturing (alleged) "terrorists" to death.

But...
- killing hundreds of children?
- using white phosphorous against civilians?
- firing on the UN compound?

It's a bit OTT when ostensibly you're only going after enemy militants...

So Ensis, it's OK to go after that bee's nest. With a shotgun. Even if it's in your neighbor's porch.

But burning his house down is a little bit excessive.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Lol, i never once suggested you go after a bees nest with a tactical nuke... a shotgun, or the good ol' gasoline trick works just fine for the bees nest...

i do agree that, certain unfortunate things have happened during this offensive into Gaza. Though, i do think that there has been some anti-Israel media coverage on the whole thing. Which is not to say that i condone the killing of children, unless said children can be proven to have taken up arms.

**Kilkrazy**

Whatever the ins and outs of the whole situation, Israel is losing the PR battle in the west.

I remember the Yom Kippur war, when it was plucky Israel standing up for itself against the much larger co-ordinated military attack of the surrounding Arab states. The general public mood in Britain was that the Israelis were unfairly attacked and did a great job defending themselves.

Since then things have changed a lot.

**JohnHwangDD**

@Ensis: Yeah, I basically agree with what you said, and never intended to imply that you were advocating dropping a MOAB on a bee's nest.

I was just running with the notion of removing a bee's nest and how far one might go with it.

**ShumaGorath**

The whole concept of proprtionality is not sane,

Sure it is. It's exactly the kind of concept that keeps states from overreacting and annihilating each other. India and pakistan still exist exactly because the concept of proportionality is sane.

**JohnHwangDD**

To be honest, the way both sides have acted, I wouldn't necessarily be against them mutually annihilating each other if the stupidity and violence could be contained within ex-British Palestine / the Middle East...

**Ensis Ferrae**

JohnHwangDD wrote:To be honest, the way both sides have acted, I wouldn't necessarily be against them mutually annihilating each other if the stupidity and violence could be contained within ex-British Palestine / the Middle East...

if we let the entire region just sorta do a "battle royale" the only people i would really want the U.S. to help, would be the Kurds, and the Yezidi.. the kurds because they have never had a homeland, and have been generally hated/persecuted throughout their entire history, and the Yezidi because they have helped US immensely in Northern Iraq, and they generally keep to themselves, so long as you dont defile Mt. Sinjar without their permission

but beyond that, we should sit back, watch the fireworks, drink a PBR, and see who comes out of the dust from the fightin

**Bodichi**

This is to all posters claiming that isreal is wrong for shooting women and children. When women and children shoot, help shoot, reload, feed, hide, clothe or otherwise aid those responsible for the rockets being fired, they are no longer "innocent non-combatants." I am sure most of the posters have never been shot at period, much less by a women or child, so until that happens your ability to pass judgement on those defending themselves from unorthodox attacks, is meaningless, to me at least. In your self righteous furry to defend Hamas you fail to empathize with a country that has had countless attacks on it by these so called "women and children."

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:The whole concept of proprtionality is not sane, nor is it historical. Its effectively the bad guys saying

"We only launched one rocket into your city to kill people because we didn't have the means to launch 100. Why did you launch 100 at us?"

Its been said, but it should be said again. Proportionality exists, it is historical, and it is necessary. Remember, WWI and WWII are anomalies, not the norm in the history of conflict. The vast majority of warfare in human history has consisted of measured responses in the pursuit of discreet goals, not conflicts of total mobilization, and annihilation. If proportionality did not exist there would have been a draft in 2003, and most of us would probably be fighting in Iraq right now.

Frazzled wrote:
Here's the problem with the pro-Gaza side. The day the Israelis pulled out of Gaza years ago, terrorists moved into rocket range and started firing rockets into southern Israel. On the same day.

Probably because the Israelis also cut them off from 45% of their potable water supplies. Its amazing what you'll do in order to survive.

Frazzled wrote:
Gaza was the test case to see if Israel could successfully pull out of the situation. The next steps were going to be complete separation. But the terrorists/freedom fighters whatever you want to call-started attacking Israel proper on the same day.

Gaza was the test case to see if they could turn the OT into the world's largest concentration camp. The West Bank initiative has been far more successful. The wall has even creeped over the 50% completion mark, and there are plans to start building the district barriers inside the West Bank.

Frazzled wrote:
In contrast, when Israel went into the West bank to stop the Intifada II it stopped that, cold. Putting tanks on top of Arafat's bunker was more effective then all the talky talky.

The second intifada wasn't even organized by the PLO. It was just an indication of how pissed off Palestinians really were. And rightly so, the ascension to power of religious Levantine Jews was not a good thing for the Palestinians. Nobody likes being detained without cause, and tried by military tribunal.

Frazzled wrote:
I'm all for Israel completely leaving Gaza and the West Bank territories. Complete separation as Hamas calls for. Leave them to join with Egypt/Jordan, or become their own little country. But at the same time, the moment a rocket comes out of either of those areas, I'd treat them as foreign powers Monghol style.

The only viable solution is to incorporate the OT into Israel; giving its residents full citizenship. Of course, this is unlikely to happen until Israel again realizes that being a solely Jewish state was never part of its purpose. Not even under Ben Gurion.

Frazzled wrote:
And it will happen. Hamas has no interest in a peaceful outcome. Its masters if Iran have no interest in a peaceful outcome, or the hardliners lose power.

Hamas is not Iranian control. They receive funding from them, but that's all. You are right that they have no interest in peace, but they wouldn't be in power at all if Israel were not interested in segregated control.

Frazzled wrote:
After all, Israel is not in Lebanon, yet continues to be attacked.

Huh?

**JohnHwangDD**

@Bodichi: Apparently, you've never used a gun. 500 children with guns will kill a lot more than 13 people.

**Bodichi**

Wow, john. personally insult my skill with weapons to refute my point. Excellent!

**JohnHwangDD**

When you make absolutely no sense with respect to the simple effectiveness of firearms, how am I to conclude otherwise?

Even if it's 500 kids with half-loaded pistols, they will kill more than 13 people.

**Frazzled**

1. Dogma, for centuries countries have obliterated each other whenever they didn’t want the territory. Indeed, until recent times it was standard practice to wipe out or enslave ALL the inhabitants of a city that didn’t immediately surrender. Time honored tradition for the Romans, Greeks, Persians, Mongols, Huns, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, well most everybody.

2. If you believe the second Intifada was a spontaneous event, all I can say is, beware of people trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

3. Incorporating Gaza and the West Bank into Israel is not an option. Its not even Israel. Why on earth would they become Israel. Then the Middle East would really freak out saying Israel conquered them. indeed that is the argument used due to the settlements in the West Bank, that they have to abandon those. Its utter nonsense. Israel might as well pull a nationwide Masada, which is what will occur if that happens.

4. Hamas not under Iranian control? That’s willful ignorance of facts. Where are they getting their weapons? Who gave them that $100MM? Please.

5. If its all Israel’s fault, why do they get attacked from Lebanon by Hezbullah?

**Ensis Ferrae**

Bodichi wrote:This is to all posters claiming that isreal is wrong for shooting women and children. When women and children shoot, help shoot, reload, feed, hide, clothe or otherwise aid those responsible for the rockets being fired, they are no longer "innocent non-combatants." I am sure most of the posters have never been shot at period, much less by a women or child, so until that happens your ability to pass judgement on those defending themselves from unorthodox attacks, is meaningless, to me at least. In your self righteous furry to defend Hamas you fail to empathize with a country that has had countless attacks on it by these so called "women and children."

I have been through a Rocket Initiated Ambush, so yeah i have been shot at, and thats just one event in a 15 month tour!

while i completely understand what both of you are saying in regards to shooting children and women, i do not purposefully wish to target them unless i see the obvious thread they are posing, which means i had better visually see an AK, rifle, rocket launcher, something....

**Bodichi**

I was in Iraq from 03 to 04 and from personal experience lots of pot shots are taken at lots of convoys with very little effect. I agree with Secret Squirell that women and children should not be a target unless immediately possing a threat but screaming that isreal "kills women and children" as some kind of self righteous battle cry is upsurd and a blatant diregard of the facts.

**dienekes96**

dogma wrote:Hamas is not Iranian control. They receive funding from them, but that's all. You are right that they have no interest in peace, but they wouldn't be in power at all if Israel were not interested in segregated control.

I usually avoid these hornet's nest, but I do have to quiz dogma here.

You get what you pay for, not what you ask for. MONEY IS CONTROL, dogma. You don't get money without influence. Hamas might not be a puppet of Iran, but they are certainly strongly influenced by them, whether they know or admit it.

**JohnHwangDD**

There are 500 dead children directly due to Israeli military actions, so it's kind of hard not to lay that at Israel's feet...

**dogma**

dienekes96 wrote:I usually avoid these hornet's nest, but I do have to quiz dogma here.

You get what you pay for, not what you ask for. MONEY IS CONTROL, dogma. You don't get money without influence. Hamas might not be a puppet of Iran, but they are certainly strongly influenced by them, whether they know or admit it.

I'd agree. I'm just not overly fond of the sentiment that Hamas is simple an Iranian appendage. There's too much of a historical barrier between the two groups. What with the Muslim brotherhood from which Hamas is descended trying to kill ayatollah Khamenei, and the strong secular streak endemic to the mixed faith Palestinian culture.

**Frazzled**

Thats war. Thats why war sucks.

**Bodichi**

@ John

I agree, lay it at the feet of Isreal. It is a horrible consequence. Yet please do not act as if the actions were not justified (As i said before if they contribtute to the attack, liberation, ambush, etc... they are not non-combatants anymore). It is horrible when children are killed in war. But i think it is worse when one side specifically uses them. isreal is not inductuing children into it's army. hamas is.

**JohnHwangDD**

@Bodichi: totally agreed that actual child soldiers are an abomination, but the deliberate use of mass effect weapons to target civilians is wrong.

**Frazzled**

John, if they were using "mass effect" weapons to target civilians the casualties would have been in the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands. They have the capcity to firebomb Gaza ala Dresden 1944 if they desired.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:1. Dogma, for centuries countries have obliterated each other whenever they didn’t want the territory. Indeed, until recent times it was standard practice to wipe out or enslave ALL the inhabitants of a city that didn’t immediately surrender. Time honored tradition for the Romans, Greeks, Persians, Mongols, Huns, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, well most everybody.

Yes, the citizens that didn't immediately surrender. As in the soldiers actively fighting against the encroaching empire. Not the non-combatants around the battlefield. The Mongols, for example, were renowned for their merciful treatment of those that would allow themselves to be conquered.

Frazzled wrote:
2. If you believe the second Intifada was a spontaneous event, all I can say is, beware of people trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

I think you need to revisit your understanding of this conflict. The Palestinian cause is not spread over a massive area. Spontaneity is bread in the conditions which characterize the OT. A fact which is further reinforced by the fact that Palestinian leaders, like Arafat, actively warned Sharon not to visit the Temple Mount because they believed it might cause a renewal to hostilities. Seems like they were right.

Frazzled wrote:
3. Incorporating Gaza and the West Bank into Israel is not an option. Its not even Israel. Why on earth would they become Israel. Then the Middle East would really freak out saying Israel conquered them. indeed that is the argument used due to the settlements in the West Bank, that they have to abandon those. Its utter nonsense. Israel might as well pull a nationwide Masada, which is what will occur if that happens.

No, its not Israel, that's why I'm saying it should be a part of Israel. The Middle East might freak out, but I don't really think so. The OT was conquered long ago, and most of the states around Israel have made peace with the notion that the Palestinians are simply not their problem. The settlements in the West Bank are being disputed not because they exists, but because the people already living in that territory are not being treated on an even keel with the settlers. If you incorporate the Palestinians as Israeli citizens, and treat them fairly according to Israeli law the problem disappears.

Either way, Israel is already a nationwide Masada. Where have you been?

Frazzled wrote:
4. Hamas not under Iranian control? That’s willful ignorance of facts. Where are they getting their weapons? Who gave them that $100MM? Please.

The organizational lineage of Hamas predates the existence of modern Iran. Indeed, other arms of the former Muslim Brotherhood have made active attempts to kill high ranking Iranian clerics; including Ayatollah Kahmeinei. They also receive direct support from al-Qaeda, a group that is diametrically opposed to Iranian interests. And pursue an agenda which is not in perfect concurrence with Iranian policy. They are influenced by Iran, but they are not controlled by it.

Frazzled wrote:
5. If its all Israel’s fault, why do they get attacked from Lebanon by Hezbullah?

Did I say it was all Israel's fault? They get attacked by Hezbollah because that group actually IS an Iranian puppet.