Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have been all over the Middle East. Israel is like a mini United States. I love that country!!! I am always 200% behind Israel whatever they decide to do, I won't even question it. The Arab countries are very jealous of both United States and Israel because we have it so much better. The US and Israel should always stick together.

That is how I see it.

Israel is not a mini United States, a large minority of its own citizens, let alone those living outside Israel proper live as second class citizens. Its an apartheid era mini South Africa, or if it is a USA its a 50's deep south state with Arabs being the black guys. Which is one of the reasons South Africa has been very angry regarding the treatment of the Israeli Arabs (i.e. Palestinians with Israeli residency). To be born an Israeli Arab is to be born a second class citizen, with restricted rights and opportunities. IIRC you dont even get a real passport, in many cases it allows you to leave and not return. This is a problem for no less reason than it prevents Moslems born in Israel from attending hajj or visiting relatives.

Frazzled wrote:Meanwhile Hamas is STILL launching attacks...

Murder several hundred kids and you can expect to be hated. Israel is not going to win this way. It was bad before but Hamas now has got a Captain Ahab thing going on.

Put it this way. The British were usually very well behaved in the policing of the Northen Ireland Troubles. However the killings on Bloody Sunday triggered attacks that lasted fifteen years, even though the killings were not 'state orchestrated' per se. Likewise Israel might not have targeted the children, but the children died and the result is the same. Many many Palestianians now will have no thought of peace on their mind, it is turning into a revenge-by-any-means-available mantra which will not easily be resolved. Expect more than rocket attacks, I suspect Hamas will try to attack softer targets, possibly Jewish communities outside of Israel.

Frazzled wrote:
Worst thing the British ever did was break up the Ottoman Empire. Look at the nghtmares it has caused. Thanks Brits

Sykes-Picot treaty. Its main error was not seperating up the Ottoman Empire on tribal grounds but with clean lines in the sand. A bit like the way Africa was carved up. T.E. Lawrence drew a roadmap for the Middle East and lobbied extensivily for it, gaining a lot of support but not from those who mattered at Versailles. To blame it squarely on the Brits is not exactly fair. Like all other outcomes of the Versailles treaty it was a joint effort.



Anyway enough bitching about Israeli poliocy. We can complain but can we offer a solution, for one side or another.

I think we can.

Compulsory purchase.

Literally buy out the Palestinians, offer them cash for land. Not at current rates as it is not worth much. No really buy them out. Sure you have to buy them all and that means you cant give them a choice. But if the billions spent on arming Israel was used to a mass relocation with fair monetary settlement, it mighty even end up cheaper. I dont see manty downsides to this Israel wins as they get the land. palestinians sort of win as they are paid to relocate. Not into refugee camps but with money to rebuild homes and businesses. Hamas doesnt win, but that is not a problem.

The only way I see this working is if the blame finger is passed through Israel to the US as backers of Israel. Along the lines of 'you bankrolled the problem, now you can pay for a fair solution'.

Actually what I would really like is for Israel to become a protectorate of the USA, if temporarily. Same as above but Mr Palestianian now has access to due process. However this would get very expensive quickly and I dont see Jerusalem agreeing to any surrender of sovereignty however short term this is for.

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Meanwhile Hamas is STILL launching attacks...

Murder several hundred kids and you can expect to be hated. Israel is not going to win this way. It was bad before but Hamas now has got a Captain Ahab thing going on.

Put it this way. The British were usually very well behaved in the policing of the Northen Ireland Troubles. However the killings on Bloody Sunday triggered attacks that lasted fifteen years, even though the killings were not 'state orchestrated' per se. Likewise Israel might not have targeted the children, but the children died and the result is the same. Many many Palestianians now will have no thought of peace on their mind, it is turning into a revenge-by-any-means-available mantra which will not easily be resolved. Expect more than rocket attacks, I suspect Hamas will try to attack softer targets, possibly Jewish communities outside of Israel.

Frazzled wrote:
Worst thing the British ever did was break up the Ottoman Empire. Look at the nghtmares it has caused. Thanks Brits

Sykes-Picot treaty. Its main error was not seperating up the Ottoman Empire on tribal grounds but with clean lines in the sand. A bit like the way Africa was carved up. T.E. Lawrence drew a roadmap for the Middle East and lobbied extensivily for it, gaining a lot of support but not from those who mattered at Versailles. To blame it squarely on the Brits is not exactly fair. Like all other outcomes of the Versailles treaty it was a joint effort.



Anyway enough bitching about Israeli poliocy. We can complain but can we offer a solution, for one side or another.

I think we can.

Compulsory purchase.

Literally buy out the Palestinians, offer them cash for land. Not at current rates as it is not worth much. No really buy them out. Sure you have to buy them all and that means you cant give them a choice. But if the billions spent on arming Israel was used to a mass relocation with fair monetary settlement, it mighty even end up cheaper. I dont see manty downsides to this Israel wins as they get the land. palestinians sort of win as they are paid to relocate. Not into refugee camps but with money to rebuild homes and businesses. Hamas doesnt win, but that is not a problem.

The only way I see this working is if the blame finger is passed through Israel to the US as backers of Israel. Along the lines of 'you bankrolled the problem, now you can pay for a fair solution'.

Actually what I would really like is for Israel to become a protectorate of the USA, if temporarily. Same as above but Mr Palestianian now has access to due process. However this would get very expensive quickly and I dont see Jerusalem agreeing to any surrender of sovereignty however short term this is for.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Orlanth wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have been all over the Middle East. Israel is like a mini United States. I love that country!!! I am always 200% behind Israel whatever they decide to do, I won't even question it. The Arab countries are very jealous of both United States and Israel because we have it so much better. The US and Israel should always stick together.

That is how I see it.

Israel is not a mini United States, a large minority of its own citizens, let alone those living outside Israel proper live as second class citizens. Its an apartheid era mini South Africa, or if it is a USA its a 50's deep south state with Arabs being the black guys. Which is one of the reasons South Africa has been very angry regarding the treatment of the Israeli Arabs (i.e. Palestinians with Israeli residency). To be born an Israeli Arab is to be born a second class citizen, with restricted rights and opportunities. IIRC you dont even get a real passport, in many cases it allows you to leave and not return. This is a problem for no less reason than it prevents Moslems born in Israel from attending hajj or visiting relatives.

Have you been there? It is a country with a high standard of living. They have freedom unlike other countries in that region. Their technology is world class to say the least. It is like the US in that many people move their to live for the opportunity of freedom and to advance. It is a democracy. I love that country for what it is.

G

It's a Theocratic Democracy though, which seems a little contradictory

Does the government pass laws based on the Jewish religion?

For example, orthodox Jews don't eat shellfish. Does that mean there are no oyster bars in Tel Aviv, the same way there are no alcohol bars in Riyadh?

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have been all over the Middle East. Israel is like a mini United States. I love that country!!! I am always 200% behind Israel whatever they decide to do, I won't even question it. The Arab countries are very jealous of both United States and Israel because we have it so much better. The US and Israel should always stick together.

That is how I see it.

Israel is not a mini United States, a large minority of its own citizens, let alone those living outside Israel proper live as second class citizens. Its an apartheid era mini South Africa, or if it is a USA its a 50's deep south state with Arabs being the black guys. Which is one of the reasons South Africa has been very angry regarding the treatment of the Israeli Arabs (i.e. Palestinians with Israeli residency). To be born an Israeli Arab is to be born a second class citizen, with restricted rights and opportunities. IIRC you dont even get a real passport, in many cases it allows you to leave and not return. This is a problem for no less reason than it prevents Moslems born in Israel from attending hajj or visiting relatives.

Have you been there? It is a country with a high standard of living. They have freedom unlike other countries in that region. Their technology is world class to say the least. It is like the US in that many people move their to live for the opportunity of freedom and to advance. It is a democracy. I love that country for what it is.

G

Have you been there? No, but then I am not too close to, the problem to see clearly.
It is a country with a high standard of living. - For some, dependent on race and religion.
They have freedom.... - For some, dependent on race and religion.
Their technology is world class to say the least. - For some, dependent on race and religion.
It is like the US in that many people move their to live for the opportunity of freedom and to advance. - For some, dependent on race and religion.
It is a democracy. - For some, dependent on race and religion.
I love that country for what it is. - Fair enough, it is wrong to *hate* a whole country, I go no further than criticise and de-myth.
....unlike other countries in that region. you should try that too.

You could quite easily have described aparthied era South Africa.

Blatant lies. Everyone has access to equal opportunities. I have been to South Africa as well and they are nothing alike.

G

Well we can't both be right. Let us leave it at that.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Blatant lies. Everyone has access to equal opportunities.

Err.... you sure about that ? Because from when I was there and the news it really doesn't quite seem like that at all.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Blatant lies. Everyone has access to equal opportunities. I have been to South Africa as well and they are nothing alike.

G

Everyone who is an Israeli citizen. Unfortunately, not everyone whom the Israelis control is an Israeli citizen. That's apartheid.

It turns out that the raid on Gaza did not stop the rockets.

Shocking. A tactic used unsuccessfully before was used unsuccessfully again.

You mean Hamas STILL shooting rockets into Israel despite a cease fire. Yea thats shocking...not.

I know this is the internet, where nuance goes to die, but calling the Israeli system Apartheid is a bit too much. You need to seperate treatment of Arab-Israelis, who are citizens, from the treatment of palestinians in the occupied territories, first of all.

Yes, those that live in the Territories are not citizens have basically whatever rights Israel feels like giving them that day. Of course, both sides see the West Bank at least as the location of an independent Palestine, and Israel has never formally joined the occupied territories with it's own body politic. There's tons of precedent for this (Vichie french weren't german citizens, nor are modern Iraqis american citizens)

As for Arab Israelis, there are some signifigant gaps between the the defacto priviliegs of Jews vs. Arabs. Access to land, money spent on education, etc. are all higher for Jews. Jews have a legal right to immigrate to Israel, while Arabs, even those related to Israeli citizens, do not. In most areas though, Arab Israelis have the same rights: speech, dissent, voting, participation in government, etc. They generally not as well off, healthy, or educated.

Virtually every modern nation has minority groups that have, in practice or even law, major obstacles to full inclusion and equality. Look at the Muslim immigrants in France, where after multiple generations they still aren't citizens of any class. Look at the Aborigines or Native Americans, or even the Ainu of Japan.

I'm not trying to defend all the actions of Israel, and the actions in the occupied territories is very complicated, but certainly for Arab Israelis their situation is less dire than even Jim Crow United States, much less Apartheid Era South Africa.

good points well made. may I be the first to make an l shape with my right hand and chant "looooosers" to all those who are not indigenous to the country they are living in.

Frazzled wrote:You mean Hamas STILL shooting rockets into Israel despite a cease fire. Yea thats shocking...not.

What do you expect after so much blood shed so casually and blame laid at the foot of Hamas for what Israeli bombs and rockets did.

These people are beyond pissed off.



Terrorism is not successfully fought this way, it never was.

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You mean Hamas STILL shooting rockets into Israel despite a cease fire. Yea thats shocking...not.

What do you expect after so much blood shed so casually and blame laid at the foot of Hamas for what Israeli bombs and rockets did.

These people are beyond pissed off.



Terrorism is not successfully fought this way, it never was.

You're right, the Israelis are beyond ticked off, at 3 years of continuous rocket attacks. Hamas must want Netanyahu to win.

Polonius wrote:I know this is the internet, where nuance goes to die, but calling the Israeli system Apartheid is a bit too much. You need to seperate treatment of Arab-Israelis, who are citizens, from the treatment of palestinians in the occupied territories, first of all.

Actually apartheid is a good analogy. Blacks and coloured in south africa under Apartheid were citizens with passports. Just second class citizens with limited opportunity. Israeli Arabs are citizens too after a fashion but rigorously controlled and not in any real way free.

Polonius wrote:As for Arab Israelis, there are some signifigant gaps between the the defacto priviliegs of Jews vs. Arabs. Access to land, money spent on education, etc. are all higher for Jews. Jews have a legal right to immigrate to Israel, while Arabs, even those related to Israeli citizens, do not. In most areas though, Arab Israelis have the same rights: speech, dissent, voting, participation in government, etc. They generally not as well off, healthy, or educated.

Here is the crunch. If you give someone the vote, but limit their numbers their education access to employment, and limit their movements (so they are all massed in a few constituencies) you limit their freedom and quality of life in a way that is completely unacceptable for a so called modern democracy.
Even if the restriction to equal education opportunities was alone in prevailing it would mean a lot because of the cascading effects of that. Lesser education means lesser job opportunities, lesser purchassing opportunity and less access to society. I suppose in a real was Israeli Arabs "help" as they provide a core of under-educated persns to give the dead end jobs noone else wants well below the minimum wage that would be offered to a Jewish citizen. They have to take them, after all there is no social security for Israeli Arabs. I have often wondered if this is the only real reason they are allowed to remain.

Face facts, they are slaves with an illusory vote. Which in a real way is worse than if they were given chains they could see.

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You mean Hamas STILL shooting rockets into Israel despite a cease fire. Yea thats shocking...not.

What do you expect after so much blood shed so casually and blame laid at the foot of Hamas for what Israeli bombs and rockets did.

These people are beyond pissed off.



Terrorism is not successfully fought this way, it never was.

You're right, the Israelis are beyond ticked off, at 3 years of continuous rocket attacks. Hamas must want Netanyahu to win.

You need to learn the lessons of successful terrorist containments such as Northern Ireland Northern Spain, Malaysia etc.
To win you must have higher moral standards to the terrorists, not equal or in this case far lower.

Containing terrorism has a hefty pricetag.
The ideal of for 'one of us we kill a hundred of them' DOESNT WORK.

You have to look at the root cause, why are rockets being fired? You cannot expect a small n umber of fantacis to make a change, a government has to make the moral change, this in turn makes the populace the fanatics rely on lose interet in supporting them.

Israel has managed lasting peace with Jordan and Egypt by compromise, though in both cases there were reasonable men to deal with. There are rwasonable men amongst the Palestinians to deal with too, but the contstant atrocities places them in no position over Hamas and other extremists.

It is a bit too late now. There are several hundred likely thousands that lost friends loved ones and relatives to attacks that can squarely be blamed on Israel, because they know who ordered the aircraft to attack. Many of those will not rest until they have personally spilled some Jewish blood.

....So after the next round of airstrikes launched once the lessons are not learned there will be several hundred or thousand more. It is only a matter of time before they look for other ways of revenge as rockets clearly are not getting a good enough return. This is going to get even nastier.

Sorry mate you are supporting a no win policy. The only way Israel can win this way is to go the whole hog and order a Final Solution to the Palestinian problem, now that admittedly does work. But then we wont be justly making parallels between Israel and Apartheid anymore but something far darker.

Or you do it the Mongol/Russian/Turkish way and just wack everyone. Every time a rocket enters Israeli space one square mile of Gaza is firebombed.

Having said that, I'm of the view of the paraphrase from Lucifers Hammer (afetr the comet hits). "freed from restraint by the major powers, their conflict would not end until they were fighting with knives."

For me this is just one conflict of a hundred in the world. Big deal.

I'm not sure where you've gotten your facts. I certainly can be wrong, but it seems a little weird to me to call a minority that has representation in the Kenneset, a judge on the supreme court, and every basic right "slaves." I didn't see anything about the passports.

As for economic imbalance, guess what? That happens everywhere. It's still not apartheid. It's discrimination, but under apartheid blacks had no right to vote in national elections (only in their tribal elections) and were not considered citizens of south Africa. They also were denied due process, were tortured, and could not even speak out or dissent in any meaningful way.

Nobody likes to see a nation divided into two based on race/ethnicity/religion/etc., but not all such divisions are equally horrific. Painting Israel with the same brush as Apartheid South Africa is simply inflammatory, and prevents you from making your real point, which is that the treatment IS unequal, and that something should be done about that. Saying "Israel has apartheid" allows Israeli apologists to simply say "no, it doesn't" and move on.

It's like Godwin's law: not all rules are fascist, not all discrimination is Apartheid.

Frazzled wrote: from Lucifers Hammer (afetr the comet hits). "freed from restraint by the major powers, their conflict would not end until they were fighting with knives."

they stole that from Einstein. filthy scumbag plagiarists!

Frazzled wrote:Or you do it the Mongol/Russian/Turkish way and just wack everyone. Every time a rocket enters Israeli space one square mile of Gaza is firebombed.

Having said that, I'm of the view of the paraphrase from Lucifers Hammer (afetr the comet hits). "freed from restraint by the major powers, their conflict would not end until they were fighting with knives."

Certainly if this was 1809, or 1859, maybe 1909, or even at a stretch 1959 the policy for Gaza would be more in balance with the way our planet is ruled.

However man has made the pretence of moving forward. We have to expect a measure of hypocrascy, in realpolitic Cicero said 'man is a political animal' I think his emphasis was on animal. The same South Africa that led a round of condemnation of Israeli policy (and incidentally was rebuffed by the US) turns a blind eye to the evils of Zanu PF.
On the other hand when western democracies provide moral (sic) support to the policies of Israel, policies that can only really be described as evil, it shows that this is not just an ordinary conflict like the hundred or so simmering around the world.
Its done with our names voiced in approval, and pronounced by a ceaseless propoganda machine of the 'Free World' as just. And that is just not on.

Frazzled wrote:For me this is just one conflict of a hundred in the world. Big deal.

You have made clear your standpoint on Israeli policy, yet been largely silent on those other conflicts. I shall not buy that you are apathetic on this issue.

1. We've moved forward?

2. Show me some threads on Darfur, Tamil, the potential Mexico implosion, etc. and I'll comment. Quit talkin' start postin.'

Polonius wrote:I'm not sure where you've gotten your facts. I certainly can be wrong, but it seems a little weird to me to call a minority that has representation in the Kenneset, a judge on the supreme court, and every basic right "slaves." I didn't see anything about the passports.

Indeed, but you are seeing 'token Arab'. Israel is not certainly stupid, have an Israeli Arab who is moderate, allow him some leeway. after all in every minoroty there are some you want to keep. No that is not fair. There are some who rise to the top and it would be senseless let alone wrong to punish them unnecessarily.
There were such people under Apartheid too, why do you think South africa built cantonments and encouraged tribal chiefs and kings to rule pocket enclave kingdoms

Polonius wrote:As for economic imbalance, guess what? That happens everywhere. It's still not apartheid.

True but, the differences are in scale are the key. Discrimination is what you get here in Europe and America and it can go several ways. Some companies still wont hire the black man (though they have tom mask that carefully) you also get reverse discrimination nd not get a job the the police for being white and be marked down in army entrance for same reason. Thuis however is another story.
The main difference is scale and extent. If blacks in Europe had the same restrictions as Israeli arabs we would be able to see it for ourselves, it goes beyond a basic imbalance in opportunity.

One daily life example I heard, yes it is anecdotal, but also indicative of many many differences between an apartheid style state and a merely discriminatory one. Its a good example because it doesnt involve any hatred or core of hatred:

A car accident in Jerusalem, no violance involved just a car accident involving Jewish and Arab registered cars (yes car registration is segregated). Jerwish and Arab ambulances arrive (yes ambulances are segregated). The Jewish ambulance is clearly far better equipped. The local police orders the Arab ambulance crew out the way so the Jewish ambulance can extract jewish casualties as priority. The Jewish paramedica find it easier to access Jewish casualties by removing the arab ones from the wreck. So they do so. Including one with neck injuries - who as any paramedic knows should not be moved for fear of spinal injury and the arab parameics were not willing to remove.

Polonius wrote:Painting Israel with the same brush as Apartheid South Africa is simply inflammatory, and prevents you from making your real point, which is that the treatment IS unequal, and that something should be done about that.
Saying "Israel has apartheid" allows Israeli apologists to simply say "no, it doesn't" and move on.

This isn't an answer, it is just denial.
However you brush close to the defence by still relying on the standpoint that criticism is inflamation rather than information and can therefore be ignored as bigotry. This is quite unfair, I am no bigot and my comments should be answered for themselves rather than circumvented by what could be taken as an assault on my credibility.
To your credit at least you have not gone to the ultimate step of accusing repeated critics of Israel as automatically being anti-semitic. That is where things get nasty. aka 'If you speak out against Israeli policy, you are likely to be some sort of neo-Nazi, therefore we have no reason to answer you, and we discourage others not to listen to you as you are the one who is truly evil'.
This line has been used before to cover a multitude of excesses and to silence critics by fear of labelling and the resultant smear on reputation, why do you think so few US politicians (in particuolar) ever dare to speak out against anything Israel does.

Frazzled wrote:1. We've moved forward?

2. Show me some threads on Darfur, Tamil, the potential Mexico implosion, etc. and I'll comment. Quit talkin' start postin.'

Sure. In the Third World little has changed.

However the mantra has been 'Israel is a modern democracy' the only one in the Middle East. Fine if this is the case they should behave like one. Noone should expect perfection, mistakes were made by the Spanish against ETA, by the British against the IRA, by the Germans against RedAF. But none of those bear parallels to the horrors of the African and Asian bush wars going on.

Besides you are still dodging the points raised. If you want to do that fair enough, just don't reply at all rather than try and come back at a tangent.

What were the points again?

@ Orlanth: I think you're missing my point. I don't have the info you seem to have about the extent of segregation within Israel. If you can share that, I'd appreciate it. For example, you seem to compare the Arab MKs in Israel to the tribal chiefs in South Africa. The difference is that Arabs serve in the actual Israeli government while the Chiefs only had authority over their enclaves.

I'm not trying to deny anything. I'm simply saying that you should call things what they are. I know that under apartheid blacks were utterly without rights. I know that under Israeli law Arabs have rights. that's enough of a difference, to me at least, to make any quite connection tenuous at best. I think the Jim Crow laws in the US might be closer (and those were never as bad as Apartheid, although they came dead close).

I also want to make clear I'm not talking about the territories or any non-citizens. I'm talking about Arab-Israeli citizens.

When a big guy beats the gak out of a small guy, my sympathy is with the small guy. Maybe both sides are stupid. But the Israeli state is the guilty party, they have the power to change the situation.

We do absolutely nothing for 3 reasons.

1. Israel is a well armed and nuclear country
2. We don't give a gak about other countries if no money is involved.
3. Arabs are on the receiving end of America's latest spin the bottle ass grape campaign. Could be worse though, they at least haven't been nuked yet.

(gak?)