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They will definitely fit into a 1750 pts list.

My hypothesis is that they can take down each cc oriented army, but I'll struggle vs fast mech armies.

So what does the full list look like?

Shrike
3x10 Assault Termies
2x10 Tacs

Looks like a lot of fun. You could drop Shrike for 2x10 gate terminators if you feel like teleporting instead.

wuestenfux wrote:...but I'll struggle vs fast mech armies.

This conjures great images of Termies huffing and puffing along in bulky armor, eating Eldar dust. "Wait guys, come back! We haven't purged you yet!"

Seriously, the 30 CC Term list looks nasty. Would 20 plus some more mobility work better overall though? I mean, 20 will still ruin almost anyone's day, right? Coupled with some melta Speeders... I'd fear that.

i think the 30 is a bit overkill.... maby 20 and gome other gubbins... like an assuly squad, or just stuff the army and get nobs in mega armour,

ORKS!!

or if you insist on marines 30 is a bit costly too, but if you realy want 30 go for it, could be a good giggle to see if they let you,

Savnock wrote:Seriously, the 30 CC Term list looks nasty. Would 20 plus some more mobility work better overall though? I mean, 20 will still ruin almost anyone's day, right? Coupled with some melta Speeders... I'd fear that.

Combined Death- & Ravenwing anyone?
I like assault terminators.
I like melta speeders.
If one could make the terminators more flexible, it seems like a good thing. Because by themselves, they suck. Shooty ones are better, since they have a much bigger threat range.

So with either expensive, but mighty LR or gating around (imho only interesting for shooty terminators) or Shrike (the slowest version), personally, I would like it. It seems hard to play because of the low model count and, adding to that, the lack of troop choices.

But since my gaming group just agreed on the house rule of making Belial a character for the new SM codex (allowing terminators to be taken as troop choices and exchanging the default rule with both stubborn and deathwing assault, which seems a wee bit too mighty, will probably need some balance), I'll give it a try anyway.

80 Slugga Boyz, 20 Nobs and 12 Deffkotas, then bring in the trukkboyz to scavenge all that hacked-up armor.

Well, I played the following list with some variants winning 3 RTTs in a row:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies 2/ cyclone x2
10 Assault Termies w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tacticals
10 Tacticals
10 Scouts

1500 pts.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I played the following list with some variants winning 3 RTTs in a row:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies 2/ cyclone x2
10 Assault Termies w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tacticals
10 Tacticals
10 Scouts

1500 pts.

Your not allowed that many 2+ saves. Its in p345 of the BGB...... >.>

The ultra heavy termie crap is comming as soon as people realise how nasty they are, like a few people here been saying since the SM codex came out.

Shrike + 10 assults is king of the hill. LR with fleeting assult terminators are second best.

I disagree, loads of termies are vunerable to weapons like vindicators & fire prisms.

As there are no tanks to occupy them with, they will soley shoot at the termies & being so expensive will die in droves. The assault termies do mitigate this but then youve got no decent ranged ability with eldar fire prisms simply running circles against assault marines. 2x Cyclones are quite good in a 10man squad.

isnt 30 termies too many elite choices?

The Angry Commissar wrote:isnt 30 termies too many elite choices?

No 3x10 Termies are allowed in standard games.

Razerous wrote:I disagree, loads of termies are vunerable to weapons like vindicators & fire prisms.

As there are no tanks to occupy them with, they will soley shoot at the termies & being so expensive will die in droves. The assault termies do mitigate this but then youve got no decent ranged ability with eldar fire prisms simply running circles against assault marines. 2x Cyclones are quite good in a 10man squad.

10 Terminators make a pretty large footprint on the board, and led by shrike, will be fleeting all over the place multi-charging anything in their path. Very nasty. The 3+ invulnerable save (of TH/SS) also mitigates their vulnerability to AP2 quite a bit.

Termies are too expensive to play unless you're playing Deathing/Ravenwing with teleport homers on bikes with melta speeders.
Smurfy Termies cost too many points because they have to take 2 troop choices.
I guess one alternative is getting infiltrating scouts then have points to throw the termies in LRs and wreak havok on people.
Though GKT are soooo much better for what? i think just 6 pts, yeah... and they have semi-psychic hoods (Aegis), S6, power weapons at WS5, leaders can be I5 as well. You really should be playing Grey Knights if you want REAL termies.
And the 2 troop choices you have to waste can be 10 pts a model with 5 man minimums. (better than SM scouts I believe and makes up a lil' for more 6 pts more a model)
LRs are also available for transportation on this fine Inquisitorial day.
Not enough anti-tank? You can always throw chainfists at them with squad leaders.

whitedragon wrote:

Razerous wrote:I disagree, loads of termies are vunerable to weapons like vindicators & fire prisms.

As there are no tanks to occupy them with, they will soley shoot at the termies & being so expensive will die in droves. The assault termies do mitigate this but then youve got no decent ranged ability with eldar fire prisms simply running circles against assault marines. 2x Cyclones are quite good in a 10man squad.

10 Terminators make a pretty large footprint on the board, and led by shrike, will be fleeting all over the place multi-charging anything in their path. Very nasty. The 3+ invulnerable save (of TH/SS) also mitigates their vulnerability to AP2 quite a bit.

Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time. With fire-prisms, the str 9 ap 2 blast is smaller but the tank is more mobile & can run around assault termies all day. It can fast-move over the top of them so unless you fil the entire board, hemming in wont be an option. Against termies with cyclone missile launchers.. a prism can out-range these weapons but the boards rarely offer enough space to make use of such a range advantage..Still, with a 5++ and having to allocate wounds onto the cyclone missile guys (due to have a only slightly unique squad) means they can get popped off fairly quickly.

Dooming banshees will eat shrike & co. May not win combat but for thier points will cripple the squad. With banshee masks & acrobatic they can just as happily eat a charge & deal the same amount of damage as they would charging in so shrike & fleeting is not a concern.

There are many many counters to a 'spam' type list, to do with termies.

I don't understand how a Vindicator could do any significant damage to a squad of assault terminators. Termies are on 1 1/2" bases and spaced 2" apart. A direct hit will get 3 and 1 might die on average. Nice shooting there Tex.

The key to the Termie heavy list is the support elements. Shrike has been talked about. Pedro is also good for his +1 attack (40 attacks on the charge WOW!). A Librarian is good to help negate psychic powers around the termies and to cast Null Zone which is a boon against possible tarpit units (Seer Council, Daemons, etc...). The librarian is also your best defense against a dual lash chaos list just pushing you back for the entire game. Attack Bikes can hunt down fast moving armor. A Thunderfire cannon can help thin out units as the termies approach. Both are cheap units to add to this list. I'm not sure 30 is the best option at 1750pts, 20 might do just as well and allow for more support units to help the 20 assault terminators.

Razerous wrote:Dooming banshees will eat shrike & co. May not win combat but for thier points will cripple the squad. With banshee masks & acrobatic they can just as happily eat a charge & deal the same amount of damage as they would charging in so shrike & fleeting is not a concern.

Might wanna redo your mathhammer there. 10 charging banshees will be lucky to get 3 dead terminators with Doom. They will most certainly not "happily eat a charge". Also, shrike does not have to lead the terminators to make them fleet. He makes the whole army fleet.

Razerous wrote: He makes the whole army fleet, regardless if he's on the board or not.

Added a bit for clarification.

Maxed Termies is an army I am working on now.

Fleeting termies coming out of LRC's is stupid.

Shrike and Khan on foot. Shrike goes with one squad of TH/SS termies, Khan goes with LC termies in LRC to give them furious assault.

First turn you can hit the enemy with 17 termies and 2 characters.

Good night.

There is no reason to just fill up on TH-SS, even if they are the resilience in that force. You might as well put in a few LCs for faster and more attacks. (hint: you just take the hits on the TH-SS ones)

The real joy of that army is that its 590 of your points, so you still have lots to do more. Like landraiders with more terminators, with fleet(thats usually a charge over the board in 1 turn) , Melta speeders, Tacticals/scouts etc.

whitedragon wrote:

Razerous wrote:Dooming banshees will eat shrike & co. May not win combat but for thier points will cripple the squad. With banshee masks & acrobatic they can just as happily eat a charge & deal the same amount of damage as they would charging in so shrike & fleeting is not a concern.

Might wanna redo your mathhammer there. 10 charging banshees will be lucky to get 3 dead terminators with Doom. They will most certainly not "happily eat a charge". Also, shrike does not have to lead the terminators to make them fleet. He makes the whole army fleet.

You got it right.

@razerous: There is a thread in Tactics called "10 th/ss terminators deepstrike in front of you". It's pretty helpful understanding how powerful the combination is. You do not hit that unit with special weapons (unless the special weapon is a C'Tan phase sword or a vortex grenade), because of the invul save. You torrent it or tarpit it. Plus banshees do not assault out of vehicles. Yet those terminators do.

Reecius wrote:Maxed Termies is an army I am working on now.

Fleeting termies coming out of LRC's is stupid.

Shrike and Khan on foot. Shrike goes with one squad of TH/SS termies, Khan goes with LC termies in LRC to give them furious assault.

First turn you can hit the enemy with 17 termies and 2 characters.

Good night.

17+2 does not sound like "max terminators", but it is pretty powerful. I figure a real max terminator thing will be great against prevalent powerbuilds using other expensive units like nob bikers, nidzilla and maybe even seer council. Yet a middle tier army using a lot of cheap speed bumps might actually win most objective grabbing missions, because you have a lot of points in few units, which then will be slowed down. And a more flexible army might target your very few and weakly defended troop choices (unless we're talking 'ard boys point level here). So it is not a surefire plan. But a good one. Personally, I'd stick with the 20-terminator idea for <1850pts.

Lordhat wrote:

Razerous wrote: He makes the whole army fleet, regardless if he's on the board or not.

Added a bit for clarification.

lol. Dont quote my name when your not actually quoting me, Your quoting whitedragon.

My point being - with the whole fleeting shrike & termies - is that if you kindly look at the acrobatic rule given to the banshees by an exarch, it bestowes the counter-attack USR.

This means (assuming they pass that LD test) if charged, when coupled with the banshee mask rules, they can happily recieve a charge to little detriment to the amount of damage they will put out . Ive changed my previous wording slightly so its a bit more obvious what I was trying to put across. Ofcource said termies would hopefully be doomed if they were so close to a banshee squad.
Shrike will generally lead somthing and will eventually be on foot meaning he will, if hes not tied in combat for the entire game (a possibility), be at risk from str 8+ blast templates. In a terminator based list.. those shots wouldnt go to waste being directed at shrike - that was the context of my point.

As for the whole, banshees charging doomed assault termies... the termies will loose one model (i think) from the shuriken pistol volley (if not needing to fleet) then a couple to the banshees and another one to the executioner wielding exarch. The returning attacks shouldnt level the banshees and they may have to take a LD test with some negative modiyfers. If they dont run, they stay in CC killing atleast one more termie in your assault phase. Theyve now done thier points worth in damage. My mathhammer is rough by i feel that if somone actually does the mathhammer, ill be right.

Im also not concidering the possibility of a failed LD save on the termies side due to the warshout. Its cheap enough to always get at 5pts and it will occasionally work, improving damage.

As basing termies on large bases.. if ive been following the threads correcty.. theres procs & cons to basing them on large/regular bases. For example while they may be less at risk to templates they are more at risk to deep-strikes & mishaps especailly with full 10man teams - this I would hazard is more of a risk. Unless you wanna magnetise your termies feet....

As for special weapons & termies.. fire-prism shots against tacs & landraiders would be a better call (unless you field bright lances for the latter) so termies do rate further down the priority tree but a focoused blast will do more points in damage to termies in cover than marines in cover. Banshees dont count as 'special weapons".. thier just a type of offensive CC choice. Would do better than any of the others for the points, concidering the need to make a silly amount of wounds vs a 3+ invunerable. In h2h neways. Shinning spears could level a sqaud on a charge, if accompanied by an autarch but thats very expensive, will still fail against that 3++ save and shinning spears are just a waste of time. Viable im sure, somhow.

all well and good, untill you fight against khorne daemon armies.
massed power wep attacks will do serious damage.

need some form of shooting / mobility aswell.

JD21290 wrote:all well and good, untill you fight against khorne daemon armies.
massed power wep attacks will do serious damage.

need some form of shooting / mobility aswell.

Second that. Your Termies will die a quick bloody death to Bloodletters and the like. Even Flamers will make your day suck.

This like many other "gimmick" armies is a rock/paper/scissors proposition. You'll own some armies and get owned by others.

Razerous wrote:My point being - with the whole fleeting shrike & termies - is that if you kindly look at the acrobatic rule given to the banshees by an exarch, it bestowes the counter-attack USR.

This means (assuming they pass that LD test) if charged, when coupled with the banshee mask rules, they can happily recieve a charge to little detriment to the amount of damage they will put out . Ive changed my previous wording slightly so its a bit more obvious what I was trying to put across. Ofcource said termies would hopefully be doomed if they were so close to a banshee squad.
Shrike will generally lead somthing and will eventually be on foot meaning he will, if hes not tied in combat for the entire game (a possibility), be at risk from str 8+ blast templates. In a terminator based list.. those shots wouldnt go to waste being directed at shrike - that was the context of my point.

As for the whole, banshees charging doomed assault termies... the termies will loose one model (i think) from the shuriken pistol volley (if not needing to fleet) then a couple to the banshees and another one to the executioner wielding exarch. The returning attacks shouldnt level the banshees and they may have to take a LD test with some negative modiyfers. If they dont run, they stay in CC killing atleast one more termie in your assault phase. Theyve now done thier points worth in damage. My mathhammer is rough by i feel that if somone actually does the mathhammer, ill be right.

The banshees will bounce off the termies, lose combat and run away, and the termies will then be free to charge something else in their turn. Doing "comparable damage in points" is irrelevant (and also untrue) because of the resilience of the 2+/3+ save. You are also saying two different things.

1) If the banshees shoot, then they charged, and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

2) If the Terminators charge, you counterattack and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

You can mitigate the running away by adding an Avatar, but then, you are spending about equal what the marine player is spending per terminator squad, if not a little more, and you still aren't countering him. This would hinge on the following:

1) You have a farseer with Doom.
2) You have an Avatar.

So you aren't really trading equal points anymore are you, making this a BAD DEAL. And what's worse, is since everybody fleets, you would really be hosed if the termies multi-charged your avatar and your banshees, because you would then probably lose both. It doesn't matter if shrike leads them or hides behind a rock the whole game, because the terminators can get the job done themselves.

And to make sure there is no confusion for anyone, the following army does not deepstrike (so bases are irrelevant) and does not use LRC's. It spreads 2 or 3 ten man terminator squads out and fleets them towards you as fast as they can, or infiltrates one of them even farther ahead and then fleets towards you as fast as they can, or outflanks and fleets towards you as fast as they can. Also, they will all have TH/SS, so your AP2 weapons will be only marginally more effective then your regular fire.

Hell, your best bet against the TH/SS terminators would be fortuned warlocks really, if you were playing eldar. Their 4+ fortuned save will negate the advantage of the TH, and their witchblades are the only weapons in the eldar CC arsenal that can put out enough wounds to get past the termies' 2+ save. The banshees and harlequins don't have high enough strength to cause enough wounds, even with Doom, and the striking scorpions don't have an INV to save them from the TH return swing.

Okay, what about a mechanized army like orks that can easily avoid even 30 terminators and just pea-shoot them to death/divide and conquer? With basically no shooting against mechanized lists, you'd have to dedicate an entire squad just to assault the transport, and then sit there warming their hands next to the fire, meanwhile the orks can charge as well as the other 2-3 units within charge range, or just run away.

Or Mech Eldar? Or Mech Dark Eldar? Or Nidzilla? Or Mech Tau?

whitedragon wrote:
The banshees will bounce off the termies, lose combat and run away, and the termies will then be free to charge something else in their turn. Doing "comparable damage in points" is irrelevant (and also untrue) because of the resilience of the 2+/3+ save. You are also saying two different things.

1) If the banshees shoot, then they charged, and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

2) If the Terminators charge, you counterattack and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

You can mitigate the running away by adding an Avatar, but then, you are spending about equal what the marine player is spending per terminator squad, if not a little more, and you still aren't countering him. This would hinge on the following:

1) You have a farseer with Doom.
2) You have an Avatar.

So you aren't really trading equal points anymore are you, making this a BAD DEAL. And what's worse, is since everybody fleets, you would really be hosed if the termies multi-charged your avatar and your banshees, because you would then probably lose both. It doesn't matter if shrike leads them or hides behind a rock the whole game, because the terminators can get the job done themselves.

And to make sure there is no confusion for anyone, the following army does not deepstrike (so bases are irrelevant) and does not use LRC's. It spreads 2 or 3 ten man terminator squads out and fleets them towards you as fast as they can, or infiltrates one of them even farther ahead and then fleets towards you as fast as they can, or outflanks and fleets towards you as fast as they can. Also, they will all have TH/SS, so your AP2 weapons will be only marginally more effective then your regular fire.

Hell, your best bet against the TH/SS terminators would be fortuned warlocks really, if you were playing eldar. Their 4+ fortuned save will negate the advantage of the TH, and their witchblades are the only weapons in the eldar CC arsenal that can put out enough wounds to get past the termies' 2+ save. The banshees and harlequins don't have high enough strength to cause enough wounds, even with Doom, and the striking scorpions don't have an INV to save them from the TH return swing.

Im a bit lost as your quoting the same kills for banshees shooting & charging as they would simply charging (being charged w/ counter-attack). No 2) is the worse options with the banshees dealing less damage (a little) and taking more damage from the termies +1 charge bonous.

Ive done the math a touch more fully.. and the shooting should kill .8 of a termie, the banshees another two and the exarch about 1.3 of a termie. Thats accumulates to four termies. The returning 6 with 12 attacks will hit 6 times, wound 5 times. 5 banshees die. By my count they now roll of a LD of 8 which is quite likely to be passed. In subsequent rounds of assault, the remaining banshees will make thier points back (rated at 200)

Thankfully an avatar was required at all in the mention & a farseer's doom has a range of 24"

Edit: Two cyclones is a nice amount of str 8 shots which can deal with lighter vehicles fine. Against eldar-vehicles.. the cover-saves & spirit stones will get to you but destroying them isnt unrealistic. The possible heavy weapons on the tacticals could also help with heavier tanks. Relatively mobile fleeting assault termies will annhilate any vehicle that gets immobilised/stunned once in charge range.. Theres also the risk of ignoring these guys in favour of the scary assault termies which is also a bad idea & id suggest running those previously mentioned banshees at the tacticals first which should get wiped 1st round of combat. . . in an ideal world.

Doom and a Bladestorm. Even better, Doom and a full broadside of Scatter Lasers.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I played the following list with some variants winning 3 RTTs in a row:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies 2/ cyclone x2
10 Assault Termies w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tacticals
10 Tacticals
10 Scouts

1500 pts.

Are you sure that's 1500 points?

If the marines are base 170 then it comes exactly to 1500.

Lies.. 1480 (I costed the cyclones @ 40pts not the actual 30pts)


Doom + bladestorm is win. Doom & guide + bladestorm is better. Worth the 20pts if the chance to be put with shooty units.