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Saldiven wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time.

Any SM player that sees something like a vindicator on the other side of the table and doesn't spread out deserves what happens to them. Considering coherency rules and the size of the terminator base, the 5" blast marker should rarely hit more than 2 terminator models. For example, given the size of the base and the 2" coherency rule, if a 5" blast marker directly hits on top of one terminator, it might nick two others, assuming the terminators are deployed linearly to maximize their frontage and limit the opponent's ability to maneuver around them. That should result in one dead terminator, assuming TH/SS troopers. If the blast marker deviates to be centered not directly over a terminator model in this scenario, it should only hit two terminators.

There are lots of ways to kill the big terminator units, but I don't think the vindicator is one of the better answers, unless the terminator player completely botches his/her model placement.

3 Termies would be a baseline minimum. I doubt someone will hit less than 3.

Of course, you didn't take into account scattering. A tiny bit of scatter can make it hit 4-5 or more.

If you are able to hit more then 5 someone is definently doing things very wrong and you will probably win anyway.

That beeing said, I dont think 30 is the magic number. Its just too much points and wont fit to make an effective army, but the thought the point was to make something thats based on assult terminators, maybe like someone said before 8 + 5 + 5, 2 squads in LRs.

@Deadshane,

Just a quick question. I am trying to figure out some kind of 1500 point list that could field enough mobile armor to tank shock a unit 5-8 times in a game. 5 I could see with the reduced prices of rhino etc... but 8??? What list are you using that you can net 8 armored vehicles in 1500 points? If that was meant for higher points please let me know. For instance if you were setting it up on a scale, as in 5 shocks at 1500 5-7 at 1750 6-8 at 2000 then okay. Please let me know.

Razerous wrote:

Like I said.. adding in some cyclones would be nice & light vehicles will fall to that firepower (and massed storm bolters)

You have to remember that every shooty termie unit goes from saving 2/3rds of anti-termie wounds to saving 1/3rd. That means every cyclone squad is TWICE as easy to shoot dead by the anti-elite weaponry.

Since you have zero tanks, all those 10-20 dark lances or other nice AP1-2 guns will immediately be vaporizing your shooty terminators.

10 Storm Bolters is not a lot of fire power.

With the termie squad at 460 points. You could afford 18 Noise Marines w/ 18 sonic blasters (48 shots per turn while standing still compared to 20 by termies. 36 while moving compared to 20 by termies.) They'll be far more effective versus hordes. Against vehicles or elite things, it's all about multi-meltas, meltas, and lascannons, which your army has zero of.


Or you could afford 13 Chaos Terminators with 13 Combi-plasma. For the same cost as that one shooting termie-unit. They deep strike as 4 4 5 and then fire 20-26 or whatever S7 AP2 shots into your shooty terminator squad. Next turn, finish off the tattered remains.

Sandokann wrote:
Gate with librarian next to the scouts with teleport hommer... ...may gate towards another area (into hommer range if posible)...

Ive added in dots because ive selected bits out.. Anyways, I just thought id mention the GoI power a librarian can use is not effected at all by a teleport homer. Only terminators coming in from reserves can teleport in. Teleport homers work for these guys alone & only in that respect. A libbys "enter play via deepstrike" is not effected by these teleport homers.

Locator beacons are what you want. They do work with the libbys power.

TheBloodGod wrote:
>>All of it..<<

Quasi-QFT

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.. I just couldnt managed to put them down into somthing quite as concise. Also the oblits will rock many types of sauce but they do have a sevre numbers disadvantage. 3x3 plasmacannons & pfists (give or take) could quite quickly change this. I mentioned cyclones purely in reguards to fast annoying weak skimmers/transports. The termies & thier pfists can catch oblibs.

Ahh you wrote loads more! Normal termies are lots more vunerable but like wues said, it can get quite easy to focous too much of the termies. Also against ap1-2 weapons against termies, dont forget the prevalence of cover saves in 5ed + the fact they can stay at range and/or deepstrike into the fray after infiltrating/running assault termies have engaged things. But they are still lots weaker yes.

I addition to other concerns about this army, I wonder how many schmucko, fearless S4 gaunts can you afford at this point level to just peck these guys to death through their 2+ save? I myself have not had much luck with terminators on foot.

I am currently at work, can anyone give an approximate point cost of Shrike, ie: he costs as much as a twin linked lascannon pred with heavy bolters or something?

Bodichi: Go to the first page of this thread.

30 slugga boyz cost less than half of a 10 man terminator unit. Still they will kill it and have over 20 boyz standing after 3-4 rounds of combat.

3++ termies have 2 attacks each, that's not enough vs hordes.

So to counter 1200 points of terminators I need about 500 points of boyz.

Post number SIXTY NINE!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anywho, I do think 30 termies is uneconomical. 20 would suffice, all of them Assault Termies if you wanted to be a jerk.
It'd be fun to play (for you) but not much fun for your opponent and not very balanced.

for 440pts you get 2x30boys w/ nob + pk & a bosspole.

While on a charge 30 of those boys kil about 6 termies.. its unlikely that all 30 boys will either a) survive long enough while being shot at by various things in any army b) get every model into effective combat range

But, yes.. if those 30 boys charge 10 termies they will very handily cripple assault termies, horde control is a big problem. Normal termies, 10 of them w/ cyclones have 4 frag missile blast templates & 10 storm bolters which put out 20 str 4 ap 5 shots @ 24". I assume this will whittle down a boy squad fairly quickly. I reckon about 12 boys per go of shooting, 6 if thier in cover.

In return these termies (while horribly expensive) can walk around and be quite immune to alot of shooting, even more with assault termies.

Razerous wrote:If the marines are base 170 then it comes exactly to 1500.

Lies.. 1480 (I costed the cyclones @ 40pts not the actual 30pts)


Doom + bladestorm is win. Doom & guide + bladestorm is better. Worth the 20pts if the chance to be put with shooty units.

Ironically, one of the lists that spawned this discussion is a bit off.

So, that's:

Librarian w/ Storm Shield
10 Termis w/ 2 Cyclones
10 Termis w/ 2 Cyclones
10 Assault Termis
10 Tac Marines
10 Tac Marines
10 Scouts

Right?

That's not even close to 1500 points.

As in, it is quite a bit over.

1940.

Remove one scout & 2 assault termies & it comes to 1847. As that stands, it looks quite good..Probably would Id take.

Hollismason wrote:Considering a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm can kill a squad of Terms if it is doomed then I would not take them.

That's a whopping 3 termies killed (roughly) if the DA's are guided and doomed.

That's a very small squad of termies.

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies w/ 2 cyclones
10 Assault Termies
10 Tac Marines
10 Tac Marines
10 Scouts

This was the list, 1500 pts, with only 20 Termies.

Aren't 30 terminators just a 1200 point easy target for a lashwhip and 9 obliterators? Or 3 ravagers? Or a nob biker squad backing up and shooting? Or uhh.. Pariahs? Pariahs would screw them up pretty bad. Yeah. Pariahs.


You should watch out for pariahs.

wuestenfux wrote:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies w/ 2 cyclones
10 Assault Termies
10 Tac Marines
10 Tac Marines
10 Scouts

This was the list, 1500 pts, with only 20 Termies.

Aside from the fact that there was an "x2" after the "10 Termies w/ 2 cyclones"?

Either way, 'tactical' Terminators just aren't that threatning to most armies.

Volume of fire rules the day now. (Yes, this is where I break out my 'I wish it was like it used to be, 3+ on 2d6' rant...)

Webbe wrote:30 slugga boyz cost less than half of a 10 man terminator unit. Still they will kill it and have over 20 boyz standing after 3-4 rounds of combat.

3++ termies have 2 attacks each, that's not enough vs hordes.

So to counter 1200 points of terminators I need about 500 points of boyz.

But it changes if you have 5 LCs. There's no way you need more than 5 TH/SS. 3 or 4 in a 5 man squad's one thing but the opponent just won't have the volume of fire to take down all 5 3+ inv saves (even lash oblit lists would have a hard time altho the could probably get the SS off one squad in one round.)

5 LCs and 5 SS by my calcs would be reduced to 1 guy but will reduce the Orks to 7 guys and force a morale check -- IF the Orks charged. Granted the Orks are much cheaper but that also assumes like others have said that the Orks will be entirely engaged.

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't 30 terminators just a 1200 point easy target for a lashwhip and 9 obliterators? Or 3 ravagers? Or a nob biker squad backing up and shooting? Or uhh.. Pariahs? Pariahs would screw them up pretty bad. Yeah. Pariahs.


You should watch out for pariahs.

Shhhh, dont tell them, let them continue to think this army is good.

You cannot convince them otherwise anyway.

to be pretty blunt here:


a 30 termy list is pure gak.
too many things about that will slaughter them without any problems.
daemons would tear through them in a few rounds without breaking stride.
bikernobz would have a pretty similar effect.
lashblitz would cause them even more problems.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time.

Any SM player that sees something like a vindicator on the other side of the table and doesn't spread out deserves what happens to them. Considering coherency rules and the size of the terminator base, the 5" blast marker should rarely hit more than 2 terminator models. For example, given the size of the base and the 2" coherency rule, if a 5" blast marker directly hits on top of one terminator, it might nick two others, assuming the terminators are deployed linearly to maximize their frontage and limit the opponent's ability to maneuver around them. That should result in one dead terminator, assuming TH/SS troopers. If the blast marker deviates to be centered not directly over a terminator model in this scenario, it should only hit two terminators.

There are lots of ways to kill the big terminator units, but I don't think the vindicator is one of the better answers, unless the terminator player completely botches his/her model placement.

3 Termies would be a baseline minimum. I doubt someone will hit less than 3.

Of course, you didn't take into account scattering. A tiny bit of scatter can make it hit 4-5 or more.

I did take scattering into effect, as you would have seen if you read the entire post. If you're going to field 30 assault terminators, you have to spread them out as much as possible to cover as much of the board as possible. If you don't, then more maneuverable forces will just dance around you. If the terminator player spreads the unit in a single line to cover as much frontage as possible, you will never hit more than 3. The only way you will hit more than 3 is if the terminator player runs the units in multiple lines, which (I think) reduces the overall battlefield effectiveness of having 30 of the models.

Personally, I don't think 30 assault terminators is a tremendously viable force, but if you're going to field them, you can't run them around in bunches.

Kill two weak troop choices and let Exorcists decimate the rest.

+40 Sisters and 8 flamers rapid fire + Divine Guidance.

This is what even most sandart mechanised Sisters army can do to this armylist.

I even have my doubts about fielding 10 Terminators. They like, cost more than all my Heavy Support choices

Not that I haven't put a LOT of thought about it. I mean, those plastic AoBR Termies are just asking to be used!*

*not only their PFs for the other models lawl.

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't 30 terminators just a 1200 point easy target for a lashwhip and 9 obliterators? Or 3 ravagers? Or a nob biker squad backing up and shooting? Or uhh.. Pariahs? Pariahs would screw them up pretty bad. Yeah. Pariahs.


You should watch out for pariahs.

The nob bikers don't want to face TH/SS termies led by shrike. With two squads, it's a pretty safe bet you'll be able to catch them. A librarian becomes insurance against lash, but yes, lash hurts bad. If anybody ever takes pariahs....

Like I said before, this can fit in 1750, I might make an army list thread

Shrike
Librarian with Null Zone (He's really only here for the psychic hood, and late game GoI)
10 Assault Termies (8 TH/SS/ 2 LC)
10 Assault Termies (8 TH/SS/ 2 LC)
3xTac squads in Rhino (Don't have my book so I'm not sure if I have enough points to go full ten man or not)
2xDreads with Multi-Melta in drop pods. (With the drop pod, you can land right on top of something and toast them

Basically, the termies and shrike take care of business, the marines drive up to objectives, and the dreads use their drop pods to land next to tanks and torch them with melta's. (You could use an Ironclad with a meltagun as well if you have points) You could also give the marines meltas and put them in drop pods as well for the same effect. Drop pods really let you get in super close for some melta love.

The terminators survivability in CC increases dramatically if you add in a couple LC terminators. That gives them enough dice to ensure a won or tied combat against CC heavy hitters. (And Razerous, a couple LC's screw the banshees pretty hard.) I'm not sure if 2 or 3 is a better number.

It may not be top tier, but it will be a hella fun to play, and can give opponents headaches.

Oh, and as for the librarian's psychic hood, you could also take a grey knight grand master if you wanted, but he's more expensive and doesn't benefit from Shrike's Fleet like the librarian would. You could be even more devious and leave the librarian in power armor, and attach him to the terminator squad, and then he could Sweeping Advance.

Nob bikers will laugh at this army. Here's an example. Using one of the winning Nob biker lists from last years Baltimore GT.

With just about any combination of dakkaguns and combi-scorchas in a single squadron, mathhammering it out (considering 9 bikers and a Warboss) nets you about 3 dead terminators from shooting.

You wont really have much choice who survives but lets assume the best (for the terminators) and say the lightning claw guys buy it....so that you can instadeath some Nobs. (since LC's wont do squat against models with wound allocation cheese, 2 wounds, Tough5, and 5++ saves)

You've got Shrike/Libby/Whatever....Nobs dont care and spread his wounds across their Wound allocation shelter. Your character kills nothing. Next the Nobs w/o Powerklaws attack. That's 3 Nobs and a Painboy, 15 attacks hitting on 3's give or take basically wounding on 3's for str5...that should give 1 more terminator dropping barring good/bad luck. 6 Terminators swing their hammers, 6 hits, 5 wound, 2 save? Sound fair? Cool, We'll wound some of the already wounded Nobs (mainly ones w/o powerklaws, thank you shrike, you nitwit) 3 bikers drop Leaving 7? Whoops, no sorry, I'll take one or two of those hammer hits on my Warboss who you cannot instakill since one terminator HAS to attack him....make that 2 more bikers drop leaving 8. You've done 5 wounds total to me considering averages.

Now the orks swing their klaws. One Nob has a better than average chance of killing off shrike with 4 Powerklaw attacks, he'll do that. Combat Res 4/5 so far for the Nobs. The other 17 powerklaw attacks from the Boss and the bikers will go into the remaining 6 Terminators. Say 12 hit, 10 wound, 3 dead...average combat. Terminators lose combat by 3 and have 3 terminators left.

This is assuming that the bikers who have superior mobility DONT decide to simply gang up on one squad and kill it off easily....which a smart Nob biker will probably do. You see, there are 2 such units like this in an 1850 or 1750 list. Also at least a big mob of 30 shoota boys behind them with big shootas to help soften the terminators up with shooting.

These massive terminator lists dont have anything going for them as far as Nob Biker lists go. You dump too many points into immobile terminators that get outmaneuvered by faster bikers that have tons more shooting ability. Its a laugh riot that you guys think this is somehow viable.

Actually, against nob bikers they will just chill in their LRs

That is, untill they wanna go forward 12, jump out 2 fleet and assult them and that will make it all alot diffrent.

Kallbrand wrote:Actually, against nob bikers they will just chill in their LRs

That is, untill they wanna go forward 12, jump out 2 fleet and assult them and that will make it all alot diffrent.

You mean like all the Land Raiders not present in the 30 Terminator list?

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Actually, against nob bikers they will just chill in their LRs

That is, untill they wanna go forward 12, jump out 2 fleet and assult them and that will make it all alot diffrent.

You mean like all the Land Raiders not present in the 30 Terminator list?

30 is too many, 20 is a decent number if being led on foot by Shrike. If you would rather use LRC's, then you should take vulkan, pedro or lysander to go along with the assault termies in the LRC's. Then fill in the rest with whatever, but droppodding marines/dreads with meltas are good.

I think to keep the Bikers for outmanuevering the Termies, you need to outshoot the Nob Biker list. I am in favor of 20 TH/SS termies in a list, not 30. With 20 you can add in more shooting elements which make the Bikers charge the firebase. Deadshane's generous illustration would give the advantage of a 750ish pt. unit over a 400pts unit. Fine. The countercharge of the next 10 termies annhilate the Nobz.

I envision 3 multimelta attack bikes, 2 thunderfire cannons and 3 units of troops putting out fire behind a screen of 20 Termies that forces the Bikers into combat. I don't think the Bikers would be able to outshoot this. Pedro is much better in this army as he adds +1 attack across the board. In Shane's example above, 12 attacks become 18 and 3 wounds through become 6. 1 on the Warboss and 5 dead nobz for 11 wounds towards combat resolution. If any Ork survives the morale check another full squad of 10 is waiting to pick up the pieces and repeat with the next Biker unit. Meanwhile the marines are taking down precious Orc troops and the Marines are losing elites. The best bet for Orks is not to attack at all and hide for the objectives. However with TLOS blocking terrain scarce, the Thundefires will reach out 60" with str 5 and no cover saves to do some damage.

I'm interested in trying it out to see how it will work.

DarthDiggler, that sounds like a battle plan:

Pedro Kantor

2x 10 Assault Terminators

3x 10 Tactical Marines

3 Attack Bikes w/ multimeltas

2 Thunderfire Cannons.

In the last tournament, I took one Thunderfire and was a bit dissappointed.
I'd be inclined to replace one Tactical squad by a 10 men Scout unit with 5 Sniper rifles.