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Seriously?

My math must be screwed up at night then...

I edited for clarity, sorry.I think I was on the ball though 2.6 with doom. closer to 4 with guide thrown in aswell.

Here we go again.

Another silly idea for an army. Spam without thought is not a "tactic" or "scary".

30 assault terminator armies wont be winning games against anyone who knows what they're doing in 40k.

So you would try to pin enemy squads by deep striking termies all around them?

30 assault terminators

Just over 600 pts left to spend in an 1850 army and no troops, HQ, transport or utility bought in the army yet.

Be ready to be outmaneuvered and beaten by anyone not stupid enough to run headlong into your footslogging units.

Terrible idea.

Thing is.. whilst other people are spending points into transports and troops & things...alot of your points are spent into 2+/3++ models that are running towards you with pfists.

What do you do? There are 30 of them! Ha.. you can combat squad them if you really want, looking at the rules!

What do you do?

Shoot them with mass firepower?
Use your transports that you've bought to make sure the assault terminators never accomplish anything?
Play keep away and kill the minimal troop units and take some objectives that the termies cannot?
Run away from slow assaulters that cannot shoot back?(what inflicts more damage on the other unit during the course of a game?...10 assault terminators or a single heavy bolter attack bike?)
Tank shock them off the board with multiple vehicles escorting them off?
Pin them?
Take your pick.

Problem is you KNOW where the threat is here and you can focus on dealing with the threat. There is no misdirection and no speed.

This idea sucks.

The 2+ really really reeally makes the first choice.. difficult. It needs lots of fire. That fire will be charged shortly after. Mechenised fire (from tanks) wont cut it & from open-topped vehicles requires it to travel 6"

Transports are stunable. 30 assault termies are less viable than 10 termies & 20 assault termies.

Keep away how.. Transport are stunable.. & between them 30 termies can prevent an ever increasing threat range.

The attack bike, ofcourse - until it gets charged. Or it gets ignored. Or it gets shot at. A lone attack bike will die quickly. A lone terminator with 9 friends wont.

Tank shocking against space marines with powerfists doesnt seem like a wise idea.

Pinning requires wounds. Sniper rifles are good at this. Alot worse vs a 3+ save a LD9.

With a bit of tinkering its quite viable IMHO

transports arnt stunnable w/extra armor, an upgrade every mech army should have.

I put my money on any mech list over this.

That's a safe bet in 5th edition.

Likewise

Still.. there are 30 of them.

Let's consider what you've said here. Lets also consider what you've got in your 1850 when you've got 1200+ points wrapped up in terminators. What else have you in the list? Since you're powerhammering, I'm suspecting Lysander or Calgar leaving you with about 400 pts to dump into your compulsary troop choices. Really the only logical decision here is two full squads so that you can actually PLAY a multiple objective mission. 2 tac squads (tac squads over scouts because you might need SOMETHING that can shoot a gun) with some sort of heavy weapon each...maybe dual melta. Whatever points you have left will likely be dumped into the squads after you buy the initial 20 men....any single vehicle is basically bait for anti-armour that every army (except this one) has in abundance.
Lemme tell you why this is no more than a quaint idea to use locally and not really a tough build at all when you look at the big picture of the game.

Razerous wrote:The 2+ really really reeally makes the first choice.. difficult. It needs lots of fire. That fire will be charged shortly after. Mechenised fire (from tanks) wont cut it & from open-topped vehicles requires it to travel 6"

Not difficult at all. An Eldar list that Spams Guide/Doom and Scatterlaser Walkers supported by about 2-3 units of Bladestorming Dire Avengers would have a feild day with 30 assault terminators....A FEILD DAY! Especially if the DA's had Shimmersheild/Defend/Fortune to back them up. This isnt even Mechanised, and with the huge amounts of hordes that are taking the field nowadays...a very likely possibility to face.

Transports are stunable. 30 assault termies are less viable than 10 termies & 20 assault termies.

How do you stun transports with assault terminators on foot? We dont have enough points to put any of them in LR's? Two tactical squads are not a reliable way to shut down transports. Razorback spam would be a nightmare for you to handle with this. Waveserpents? Any Dark Eldar list?

Keep away how.. Transport are stunable.. & between them 30 termies can prevent an ever increasing threat range.

I think I 've just illustrated how wrong you are here. In fact, your terminators dont want to get anywhere near multiple vehicles...unless they think they can survive MULTIPLE tank shock tests that are going to escort them off of the board. 10 terminators is a hell of a reward for an opponents successful tank shock.

The attack bike, ofcourse - until it gets charged. Or it gets ignored. Or it gets shot at. A lone attack bike will die quickly. A lone terminator with 9 friends wont.

again, how are you going to charge something that is faster than you and knows how easily you can kill it in close combat? Even running, you will never get close enough to charg an attack bike...until late game. Also, a 40pt attack bike has A LOT more friends in an 1850 list than 1200 pts worth of terminators have.

Tank shocking against space marines with powerfists doesnt seem like a wise idea.

Sure it does? You wanna death or glory with a powerfist against a LR? A single LR can tank shot your units with little or no fear of anything. Even a 35pt rhino is a worthy risk considering you only have a 50% chance to penetrate...glancing wont stop it reliably, and even a pen could be risky. If you only contact a single model, you have ONE chance to stop the vehicle....and that's if you pass your leadership test in the first place.

Pinning requires wounds. Sniper rifles are good at this. Alot worse vs a 3+ save a LD9.

Leadership nine wouldnt be much of an issue if you have multiple units firing. As with multiple tank shocks, eventually you'll fail. With all the eggs in one basket, your failed leadership is disastrous. A bit of bad luck can ruin your game.

With a bit of tinkering its quite viable IMHO

Viable for what? Lash bends this idea over, Horde orks laughter can be heard even over the rattle of thier lootaz, Mech runs this off of the table, and any shooty eldar list (which is what they do anyway) beats it all to heck.

Razerous wrote:
Still.. there are 30 of them.

Not after 2 failed tank shock tests when facing a sisters drive-by list, then there are only 10.

Volume of fire still kills 2+/3++ models, and considering your anti tank either goes on foot or is just a couple meltas, I wouldn't hold my breath for the list. You can just use transports and speed bumps while you shoot each terminator unit at a time. I think I rather have a multiple LR based terminators list instead, with just units of 5's and plenty ranged support.

Razerous wrote:
Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time.

Any SM player that sees something like a vindicator on the other side of the table and doesn't spread out deserves what happens to them. Considering coherency rules and the size of the terminator base, the 5" blast marker should rarely hit more than 2 terminator models. For example, given the size of the base and the 2" coherency rule, if a 5" blast marker directly hits on top of one terminator, it might nick two others, assuming the terminators are deployed linearly to maximize their frontage and limit the opponent's ability to maneuver around them. That should result in one dead terminator, assuming TH/SS troopers. If the blast marker deviates to be centered not directly over a terminator model in this scenario, it should only hit two terminators.

There are lots of ways to kill the big terminator units, but I don't think the vindicator is one of the better answers, unless the terminator player completely botches his/her model placement.

Issues with termie base sizes will have to be agreeded per player or per group? It just seems a bit unfair to have one guy running teleporting/gating termies on small bases & another guy footslogging ones on larges bases? Sounds iffy. If the matter is already sorted.. please let me know.

Im not sure why you quoted me on a few (all ) points but failed to read the quotes in question. Granted youve got some valid points but equally some of your replies fail to actually read/answer to the bits youve quoted.

Like I said.. adding in some cyclones would be nice & light vehicles will fall to that firepower (and massed storm bolters)

When did tank shocks become so powerful? Marines have a few cool rule reguarding not running away & those tank shocks will need to end up more than 12" away. Tank shocking versus weaker troops with poor morale may be a good idea but against a unit that can walk up to even a monolith and put some hurt onto it deserves to be stayed away from. Surely thats the idea, with mechenised vs footsloggers.. To stay away. Again.. 30 termies (especailly on these super large bases I dont like to hear bout so out-of-hand) will cover a large area. Tacticals will be worth thier weight in man-flesh. Long ranged anti-tank is the best dutie for them and they will do somthing.

But okay, sure. 30 termies are rubbish & a waste of time. Will never do anything & are easily removeable.

17+2 does not sound like "max terminators", but it is pretty powerful. I figure a real max terminator thing will be great against prevalent powerbuilds using other expensive units like nob bikers, nidzilla and maybe even seer council. Yet a middle tier army using a lot of cheap speed bumps might actually win most objective grabbing missions, because you have a lot of points in few units, which then will be slowed down. And a more flexible army might target your very few and weakly defended troop choices (unless we're talking 'ard boys point level here). So it is not a surefire plan. But a good one. Personally, I'd stick with the 20-terminator idea for <1850pts.

All good points, and yes, it was a misnomer, it is not a max termy army.

Deadshane1, I have to almost totally disagree with you (almost because I have not played the army yet, so this is all theory) but 30 assault termies with fleet are a huge threat to any army that I can think of, especially considering one of the squads starts 12-18 inches away from your lines. It is an army that is incredibly resiliant, hits like a ton of bricks and is very mobile.

A variation that I plan on doing is one max squad of normal termies and a libby with gate to make the squad super mobile. You take a few cheap troops to daisey pick objectives and take the occasional pot shot and let the big boys do the rest.

Is it the end all be all of lists? No, but I think it would be mighty powerful and a cool looking and fun army to play, if a bit pricey!

Shrike
Libby
10 Termies
10 Termies
3x Tacs in Rhino's
2x Dropping Dreads

Is a basic outline that can be tailored from 1750-2000 and will be incredibly difficult for most to deal with.

Also note that in most cases, you only need 8-9 TH/SS, so the other 1 or 2 can be lightning claws. (This also stuffs your banshees even harder Razerous.) And the reason the banshees get the same number of attacks charging or being charged was that you had mentioned "Counterattack", so I assumed that your build would include it.

Razerous wrote:Like I said.. adding in some cyclones would be nice & light vehicles will fall to that firepower (and massed storm bolters)

How do assault terminators get cyclones? If they're not assault terminators with Stormsheilds all of a sudden they become SUPER easy to shoot off of the board.

When did tank shocks become so powerful?

They always have been....and marines (calgar excluded) are JUST as susceptable to them as every other non-fearless army out there. If you havent had a single unit tank shocked 5-8 times in the same turn, I can see how you might be ignorant of the potency of a tank shock. (not saying 'ignorant' as an insult btw, dont take it personal)

But okay, sure. 30 termies are rubbish & a waste of time. Will never do anything & are easily removeable.

Not against anyone who knows what they're doing...no. They'll be played with.

Reecius wrote:Deadshane1, I have to almost totally disagree with you (almost because I have not played the army yet, so this is all theory) but 30 assault termies with fleet are a huge threat to any army that I can think of, especially considering one of the squads starts 12-18 inches away from your lines. It is an army that is incredibly resiliant, hits like a ton of bricks and is very mobile.

'Why' do you disagree? Or are you just sticking your head in the sand? I think I'm right, and when people think their terminators are invincible against me....they never are. One of my last games that I played, I played a guy with 15 Tzeench terminators, Abbaddon, and a Terminator lord. I killed every model for the price of 2 of my own terminators and two wounds on my Grand master. Why? Because terminators arent as tough as everyone seems to think they are. They're marines. One wound, no FnP, Assault termies have hardly any wound allocation shelter, and they arent fearless. They arent as resiliant as you're thinking they are..thats what I'm saying...ok, you disagree. I think you're wrong.

by the way, "move 6, charge 6, d6 fleet" How is that "Very mobile" in this game of skimmers, fast vehicles, jump packs, turboboosting.......?

whitedragon wrote:Shrike
Libby
10 Termies
10 Termies
3x Tacs in Rhino's
2x Dropping Dreads

Is a basic outline that can be tailored from 1750-2000 and will be incredibly difficult for most to deal with.

I hope I fight lists like this all adepticon weekend. Looks incredibly weak to me.

Considering a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm can kill a squad of Terms if it is doomed then I would not take them.

yeah,
This all looks interesting....
sorry to derail but do you guys think that 30 terminators could work in a CSM list??

Panic...

Well If you just want to make your oppomemt cry

Shrike

5 Terms w/ Reedemer 465

5 Terms w/ Redeemer 465

8 Terms for Shrike 280

Troops

10 man Scout w/ CC 140

10 Man Scout w/ CC 140

Hollismason wrote:Considering a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm can kill a squad of Terms if it is doomed then I would not take them.

Aha..dear me. No. You kill 2.5 termies (roughly) with a bladestorming dire avenger sqaud with the dual cats (so no 5++ cc save) and closer to 4 is the squad is guided aswell. Nowhere near 10 termies im afraid.

Like I said deadshane.. posting replies to comments you quote me on that are completely ignorant (see what I did thar) to the quoted materail is just fail.

If a termie squad manages to fail a LD save 5-8 times, or fails to kill any tanks 5-8 times, or even an opponent manages to field 5-8 tanks.. Id be surprised. 5-8 tanks would fill so much space that a good few would be easily chargable. Its just a silly thing to say. Its like saying I can multi-charge 4 carnifexes and kill all of them with my 10 termies. It could happen. It never should.

Razerous wrote:
Like I said deadshane.. posting replies to comments you quote me on that are completely ignorant (see what I did thar) to the quoted materail is just fail.

You said adding in cyclones would work against light armour
-I said you cannot equip assault terminators with cyclones, and regular termies are even easier to shoot off of the board

You asked when did Tank Shocks become so powerful.
-I explained that they always have been and why.

...this is how I've been addressing your quotes, even earlier ones. I HAVE been debating the validity of what you've said. You're way to dispute me is to simply call me fail?

Thank you for the debate victory.

Guided war walkers really have fun with Doomed terminators

at 2000 points I run Vulkan with 8 Multimeltas, however at 1750 that number drops to 6 or 7 but I'll admit the idea of 30 terminators comming at me might be a little hard to combat.

Thankfully Null Zone makes the 3++ Stormshield saves a little bit harder to pass.

its called khorne chaos daemons

'Why' do you disagree? Or are you just sticking your head in the sand?

I posted several reasons why they are good, you must have missed them.

Edited for pointless argumentative content.

Guided war walkers really have fun with Doomed terminators

Indeed, this happened in the last tourney one week ago.
Kill point mission. My 10 Assault Termies approached the Eldar army and got decimated heavily (3 left) before they could charge the Pathfinders and Dark Reapers. They annihilated both but then got wiped out.
However, the Eldar army had to focus all its fire against the Assault Termies.
At the end, he got heavily beaten 6:3.

Im running a similar list lately, Ive fount I need at least 1 LR to be sure I can take 1 scoring unnit to enemy area target and keep it alive.
Also Ive fount a librarian is a must for the hook, the gate and the null zone (great agains other termies ! )
As scoring units for me is more than enought having 10 tactical marines and scouts, if used properly and defended goo you dont really need more than this to win a battle.
So here is my list as Im using it atm its 2.000 points , adjust it to 1750 would not be hard thouhgt

HQ:
Captain Kayvaan Shrike 195
Librarian 100........295
Troops:
10 Scouts+9 SnipperRifles+MissileLauncher+TeleportHommer 165
10 Scouts+9 SnipperRifles+MissileLauncher+TeleportHommer 165
5 TacticalMarines+MeltaBombs+TeleportHommer 110........440
Elites:
10 AssaultTerminators 400
10 AssaultTerminators 400
5 AssaultTerminators 200......1.000
Heavy Support:
1 LandRaider+ExtraArmor 265........265

How it works? well imagine a capture and control mision and an enemy that have deployed in 2 areas of his battleground.
Deploy: infiltrate Kayvan and 10 termies as close as posible to his main area where his marker is. Infiltrate 5 scouts as close as posible to his 2nd army group.
deploy the landraider with the 5 tactical inside as close to his marker as posible.
Infiltrate another 5 scouts within his 1rst army group.
Keep 5 scouts next to your marker if posible out of sight, keep 5 scouts on reserve.
Keep 5 termies on reserve as counter attack resource.

1st turn move kayvan if you were able to deploy close assault , if not split the squad for a 2nd turn assault to his main force group.
Gate with librarian next to the scouts with teleport hommer near his 2nd group and run to split your squad a little antiblast.
Move max distance the LR with the tactical inside towards his marker of his objetive get a cover save if posible, pop smoke launchers.
Shot if posible with the 15 scouts and 2 missile launchers.
Turn done.
In his turn you will have to survive all his firepower on your 20 assault terminators. here is when moving smart and sploiting LOS get you less hits and throught hits less 3++/2+ saves to do.
Average battles you will lose here 3 to 5 termies agains a good enemy.
2nd turn Assault with kayvaan squad, Assault with Libby squad keep on shoting with the 15 scouts.
If the last 5 scouts or the last 5 termies arrived decide to defend your objetive or press his.
3rd turn Kayvaan squad keep the cleanning, Libby squat may gate towards another area (into hommer range if posible) for more cleaning in turn 4th
More or less this is the idea. Exploiting Fleet especial rule to have a hight mobility /charge army. Use great librarian gate and LR assult especial rule to ad even more mobility to that army, and use those stupid 3+ invulnerable save on stormshields to keep every1 alive.

DarthDiggler wrote:I don't understand how a Vindicator could do any significant damage to a squad of assault terminators. Termies are on 1 1/2" bases and spaced 2" apart. A direct hit will get 3 and 1 might die on average. Nice shooting there Tex.

10 guys on large bases spread 2" apart means your one squad is taking up a huge amount of space, meaning you can't really concentrate power. It would also means you won't get full attacks. If your squad is spread 2" between each rank and in even 3 ranks. That means any guy in the 3rd rank will likely not have room to get into combat (he can't be moved farther than his 6" move allows.)

As others have said, if you deep strike them, it means a very likely obliteration when you can't fit all your guys onto the board.

Vindicators and such are not as ineffective as you say also. You won't be able to maintain a perfect spacing on a real battle field where you have to move around houses or forests, or squish in to occupy them.

Chaos has lash to make sure he can hit like every terminator at once. Also, the ability to just make them walk backwards and not be able to assault what they want.

But if you're imperial there are ways you can force the termies to mass together.

Pivot to face one flank and Tank shock the Side of the wide-spread assault termies from medium range. If successful your rhino will run out of movement right on top of half of the terminator unit. The rules say they must be moved aside the minimum distance required so that they'll stay in coherency and be outside of 1" from the vehicle. This means that they'll be moved right up against their friends. Then on your shooting turn, you fire 2-3 Pie plates into this bunched-up area, and you could probably easily hit 5-7 Termies with each. Make sure to drive one of the vindies ahead of the others, so that they assault it next turn. When they assault, they all have to be moved into base-contact if possible. They possibly blow it up, then the other vindicators drive around and then obliterate the survivors.

Most people when they discuss shooting, they always say assault termies, but deathwing termies and normal termies do not have 3+ invulnerables.

If my obliterators face up against your cyclone squad, the cyclone squad is getting wiped off the map. Plasma cannons wound termies on 2+, and you only get a 5+ save. Then in return I get a 2+ save against all your cyclone launchers.