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Okay, so I know that I'm taking on a huge task here. A lot of people hate the current codex for removing its flavor, so I'm trying to add it back in, while still trying to keep it balanced. This means that I'm adding back mutations and the like. It's kind of complex, but I'm trying to make it not as much of a GUO as it is now.

Here's the stuff that I've worked on so far. No point costs yet.

First of all, start of with Army Wide Rules:

Chaotic Attributes: Must roll for this after deployment. Roll for each individual squad/character. This is an optional ability. Add +d3-2 to any of these: S, T, W, I, A. If wounds would be reduced to 0 because of this, consider those affected to have 1's in all stats except for a T and S of 3, LD 2, the squad's original save, Fearless, Feel No Pain, and "We'll Be Back!".

Essence of the Warp- May roll invulnerable saves in addition to any other save.
----
Mark of Khorne- Fearless, +1 Attack

Mark of Tzeentch (Character)- Sorceror, always pass Psychic Tests unless 2 6's are rolled.

Mark of Tzeentch (CSM units)- Fearless, Slow and Purposeful, Daemonic Constitution (+1 wound)

Mark of Nurgle- Fearless, Increased Toughness (+1 T)

Mark of Slaanesh- Fearless, Subduing Gaze (-1 I to enemies in assault)

Mark of Chaos Undivided- May reroll a failed LD check unless it involves a psychic power.

Mark of Malal- Preferred Enemy: Chaos, Furious Charge
---

Now for some new (or returning, or with different rules) Weapons:

1 Hand CCW's:
Khornate Chainaxe- Gives -1 to saves in CC.

2 Hand CCW's:
Great Weapon- Gives +2 S and -1 I.

1 Hand Firearms:
Needle Pistol- R12" Str X Ap 6; Assault 1, Pistol
Hand Flamer- R: Template Str 3 Ap 6; Assault 1, Pistol

2 Hand Firearms:
Tzeentchian Arquebus- R36" Str 4 Ap - Assault 1, Pinning

Rare Weapons: (Only 1 per army)
Kai Gun- R36" Str 6 Ap 4 Heavy 5
Annihilator of Khorne- R36" Str 8 Ap 3; Heavy 4, Pinning
Storm of Tzeentch- R60" Str 7 Ap 4; Heavy 1, Large Blast
Pus Blaster of Nurgle- R18" Str X Ap -; Heavy 3, Blast; Pinning
Eviscerator of Slaanesh- R24" Str 6 Ap 6; Heavy 6, Pinning

Daemon Weapons: (If you roll a natural 1 then the daemon inside rebels, doing 1 wound. This is saveable only by an invulnerable save. )

Khornate- Power Weapon, gives d6+1 attacks, Rage
Tzeentchian- Power Weapon, +d2 attacks, Has a shooting attack of R:Template Str 4 Ap 3
Nurglesque- Power Weapon, +d3 attacks, Poisoned
Slaaneshi- Power Weapon, +d4 attacks, Hit and Run
Undivided- Power Weapon, +d3 attacks, +1 S
Malalian- Power Weapon, +d3 attacks, wounds any Chaos model on a 3+ unless it would be lower, and gets +1S if the model with this weapon has a lower S or T than a model in the squad that it is currently in close combat with.

So, that's it for now.
Next time: Mutations and Daemonic Mounts!

I like the idea you have here of returning the flavor to Chaos, and several of your ideas look very nice. However, some of them seem to be a little strange to me. (As a disclaimer, I started 40k shortly before 5th ed, so I've never seen the older codices actually played. I have most 3rd and 4th ed codices on my computer, but if I ask a question that's justified because of 2nd ed or something, that's why.)

Firstly, the Chaotic Attributes rule. I'm going to say, I don't like this. Chaos is all well and good, but this is going a little far. I could see this as an upgrade for a select few units but as it stands (given that AFAIK all units can roll) it seems too "big" to stay.

Secondly, Malal. I know who he is, and so your choices for him seem ok, but why, at least in this document, does he have as much importance as the four really famous gods? Perhaps it's just a matter of receiving undiluted or modified data, and in your actual 'codex' he's a small, variant army list. But listing him here, next to the others, makes him seem very important, and I've never gotten that feel.

Moving on to more specific things: Essence of the Warp. This is strong, very strong. I hope it has a high price to match.
MoT(unit): +1 Wound is another big, bold move. However, it's replacing an invuln save. tricky. I'd have to see how thousand son Marines fare like this.

Rare weapons:
In general, I found most of these odd choices. Khorne having a super gun. The Kai-gun no longer being a marine-killing machine. The fact that khorne had the best range except Tzeentch. (tying with the kai)
(Also, your avenger, which I assumed to be Malal's didn't make it.)

Daemon weapons.
For a codex seeking to bring back flavor, these really didn't sell it for me. In most cases a usr or stat change and a variable number of attacks? How do you expect to even get d4 from a 6 sided die for your slaanesh weapon?

However, as I said, I found your goal and your ideas at the very least interesting. I'm looking forward to the rest of your work, to see if it helps me make sense of what's already here.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:I like the idea you have here of returning the flavor to Chaos, and several of your ideas look very nice. However, some of them seem to be a little strange to me. (As a disclaimer, I started 40k shortly before 5th ed, so I've never seen the older codices actually played. I have most 3rd and 4th ed codices on my computer, but if I ask a question that's justified because of 2nd ed or something, that's why.)

Firstly, the Chaotic Attributes rule. I'm going to say, I don't like this. Chaos is all well and good, but this is going a little far. I could see this as an upgrade for a select few units but as it stands (given that AFAIK all units can roll) it seems too "big" to stay.

I can definitely see this. I like it. Probably things like Chosen, and Possessed. Thank you.

Secondly, Malal. I know who he is, and so your choices for him seem ok, but why, at least in this document, does he have as much importance as the four really famous gods? Perhaps it's just a matter of receiving undiluted or modified data, and in your actual 'codex' he's a small, variant army list. But listing him here, next to the others, makes him seem very important, and I've never gotten that feel.

Hmm...do you think that it would be okay if the mark was only available on specific units? Because some fluff for Malal says that while his follower may be few, they are incredibly strong. So perhaps something along that line.

Moving on to more specific things: Essence of the Warp. This is strong, very strong. I hope it has a high price to match.

Yes, it's very strong. A 6+ invul and a 5+ invul (no higher than a 5+ for the sake of balance) are around 13 and 20 points respectively. The actual Essence of the Warp costs no points, however, as invulnerable saves are very few and far between. Perhaps a bit arbitrary? I could make it an ability that Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords have access to, however, and I could make invulnerable saves more (albeit not too much more) common.

MoT(unit): +1 Wound is another big, bold move. However, it's replacing an invuln save. tricky. I'd have to see how thousand son Marines fare like this.

This is a hark back to the old 3.5 Chaos codex. Plus, with Essence of the Warp, Thousand Sons were insanely powerful. So I chose the +1 wound option.

Rare weapons:
In general, I found most of these odd choices. Khorne having a super gun. The Kai-gun no longer being a marine-killing machine. The fact that khorne had the best range except Tzeentch. (tying with the kai)
(Also, your avenger, which I assumed to be Malal's didn't make it.)

I will be the first to admit that the ranges were a bit on the arbitrary side. I'm going to end up reducing Khorne's and upping Slaanesh's. The Khorne gun on its own was around like 60 points to start with, so I feel that it's not too big. I wanted to emphasize that Khorne isn't just all about CC, he's about shooting too.

The Avenger, yes, is Malal's. I thought that I had deleted that, but I guess I didn't. Whoops.

Daemon weapons.
For a codex seeking to bring back flavor, these really didn't sell it for me. In most cases a usr or stat change and a variable number of attacks? How do you expect to even get d4 from a 6 sided die for your slaanesh weapon?

I'm going to be honest, I don't really like them either. If I could get some suggestions, that would be incredibly helpful.

For the d4, well, the d4 is just a different dice used as opposed to the d6.

However, as I said, I found your goal and your ideas at the very least interesting. I'm looking forward to the rest of your work, to see if it helps me make sense of what's already here.

Thank you very much, I appreciate all of your input! Rest assured, it will not go unheard. I need people other than myself to give input.

A funny (or rather, disturbing) note aside is that I've been trying to figure out how to make the mutations and the Lord work together.

The problem is, with this much stuff, it's hard to balance it. I ended up with a huge Daemon Prince monstrosity that wiped out a squad of 30 Ork boys in around 3 turns. Of course, there were definitely some changes after that.

Well, I'll get off of my and get back to work.

Thank you again!

:EDIT: I'm going to be leaving the first post unchanged, so I can get as many comments/feedback on its unchanged status before I go around making a new list.

-Vlad

well. to start off, i realy like these idears and i believe that it might be nice to add some fo the old flavour back to the book.

first off, i dont like the daemon weapons, personaly i like how they are in the current codex (i am a little bias in this )

the marks are good. Tzzentch is good as it is at the moment, it ads a bit more that just an inv save, though you migth want to change the slow and purposfull, not all marines dedicated to tzzentch are thousand sons (according to the current dex)

i like the return of the khornite chain axe.

dont realy see the need for the needle pistol, was it in the old dex?

kai gun ftw!!!, i used to love this weapon, but bring the ap back to ap3

overall i am looking fors to seeing how this turns out.

who the hell is Malal??????, i have never heard of him

Vladsimpaler wrote:...current codex for removing its flavor, so I'm trying to add it back in, while still trying to keep it balanced.

Why?



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:Why?

Why what? Why add flavour? Why balance it? Be specific.

kormas wrote:well. to start off, i realy like these idears and i believe that it might be nice to add some fo the old flavour back to the book.

first off, i dont like the daemon weapons, personaly i like how they are in the current codex (i am a little bias in this )

First of all, thank you.

Second of all: Yep, the Daemon Weapons are ALL getting revamped. I'm not too big of a fan of the current ones, however I can and will try and make them fit as much as possible.

the marks are good. Tzzentch is good as it is at the moment, it ads a bit more that just an inv save, though you migth want to change the slow and purposfull, not all marines dedicated to tzzentch are thousand sons (according to the current dex)

Hmm...so no S+P? I admittedly haven't read half of the fluff in the current Chaos Codex, since it was all like "oh the Chaos gods are lyke rly dumb and dey don't kno wat dey are doing lololol!!!1"

I couldn't read any more. Removing S+P will make the Mark more expensive to units, of course.

i like the return of the khornite chain axe.

dont realy see the need for the needle pistol, was it in the old dex?

kai gun ftw!!!, i used to love this weapon, but bring the ap back to ap3

No, the needle pistol wasn't in the old dex, at least, I don't think so. I just felt like putting it there, to be totally honest.

The Kai Gun, I will make its AP 3 again, and reduce its Str to 4.

overall i am looking fors to seeing how this turns out.

who the hell is Malal??????, i have never heard of him

Malal is a minor Chaos god. He's pretty interesting, actually. You can read about him here:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6183/mordheim/mordheim-malal.html

@Ghidorah, and also @ HBMC assuming that he's talking to me:

Well, I want to add more interesting stuff to the Chaos codex, because I'm going to be honest, the current one is kind of on the boring side. Like, Tzeentch is the god of saving you from power weapons and lascannons. And, looking over the summary for the old Chaos codex, I found that there was so much more.

And the best example of how boring the new dex is: Generic Daemons. Cop-out, much?

So I want to add stuff back in. I don't want to step on the toes of the Daemon codex, however I figure that with some creativity I can add some Daemons to this codex.

Why balance it? Um, so that you don't have uber Daemon Prince monsters running around killing whole armies?

Now for some Questions:

Speaking of Daemon Princes, would you guys rather that the Daemon Prince be an upgrade (like how I have it right now), or a separate entry? It's going to be an 0-1 choice either way.

Also, would you rather that Sorcerors be Tzeentch only (like I have them right now), or have Sorcerors be a separate entry in the Chaos codex with options for Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh?

I like the chaos dex as it is I may not have seen the old ones. someone I'm not sure who because I read it ages ago said something about daemon princes you couldnt shoot or charge I mean thats just stupid and really really gamey it sounds like you couldnt have a fun game with or against it people as far as I can tell are just annoyed because their uber unkillable things of death are gone. And on an unconnected note I like 5th edition rules but they don't really change anything for me because I lost my 4th ed rulebook and so the only thing that changed for me was that I had a rulebook and I wont stand behind someone changing the chaos dex but I wont get in the way of someone if they wont to use weird rules like these

waaagh!orksrocks wrote:I like the chaos dex as it is I may not have seen the old ones. someone I'm not sure who because I read it ages ago said something about daemon princes you couldnt shoot or charge I mean thats just stupid and really really gamey it sounds like you couldnt have a fun game with or against it people as far as I can tell are just annoyed because their uber unkillable things of death are gone.

I've only seen small parts of the Chaos Codex. However, the thing is that power players really liked uber unkillable things. They moved on to Orks and other stuff. The true Chaos players, for the most part, don't like that stuff.

Don't worry though, Daemon Princes are nothing like that. In fact, in the way that I'm working it, Daemon Princes are going to be expensive, but oh so worth it. They give you +d3-1 to your WS and BS, Eternal Warrior, and (if the Chaos Lord doesn't have it already) Monstrous Creature.

Trust me, they're going to be on the expensive side, but they will be worth the price. Don't worry about it.

Actually I really like the Chaos Codex. It got me back into the hobby.

I don't really like the Chaos Codex and it's mainly because the Dex was gutted and we were left with a bland mess. There are power builds, but they are based on a combination of uber units that are unfluffy in my opinion. Slaanesh HQ, Khorne and/or Nurgle Troops and Max Obliterators which are supposed to be semi-rare. Let's not forget the generic demons which shows how lazy the authors were. Over 50% of the stuff in the codex is crap or is inconsistent with other rules within the 40K universe. The codex and 5th edition are a couple of reasons I'm not all the motivated to jump back into the hobby with both feet.

The irony of this is that I like the Chaos Codex because it's not a tangled morass like the previous book, and that it gives the players lots of variety. In fact, if there's a flaw in the book, it's that the authors didn't consider the ramifications of meta-gaming legacies from 4th edition and the previous book where people want to keep playing the same old 4th edition game with the same 4th edition armies. Take the so-called Lash Spam lists, which are fantastic against 4th edition armies composed of masses of infantry, but pathetic against 5th edition armies, which are mechanized melta-gun toting hordes.

Quick question, would you guys prefer it if I posted the mutations and other equipment (and mounts) here, or in a different thread?

-Vlad

Vladsimpaler - No I was talking to Ghidorah because his post made little sense as it wasn't clear what he was asking 'why' about.

I actually completely agree with you on your reasons for wanting this, although my solution is far simpler:

1. Burn current 'Chaos' Codex.
2. Take previous Chaos Codex.
3. ????
4. Flavour!

@Vladsimpaler: I say post it here. That way there aren't 5 different threads to look through.

Alright, so I'm expecting to be mauled when I post this, so I'm getting out my shield and asbestos suit.

Now for the bread and butter (imho anyway) of the new codex:

Mutations!

Mutations are to me, what makes Chaos, well, Chaos. They work like this: Cultists may take up to 2 mutations, Chaos Space Marines may take up to 3, Possessed may take up to 5, and Lords/Aspiring Champions may take as many as they wish. Units that I didn't specify (i.e. Raptors and the like) may take up to 4.

However, if you add a Mark to a unit then you may take 1 additional mutation. They cost points, however, and I don't suggest loading up on them if you want an army with more than 20 people in it! Unless of course you want your Chaos Space Marines to have the Mark of Khorne, Tentacles, Wings, Extra limbs, and to breath fire, in which case, go for it!

Without further ado, Mutations:

Wings- Move as a Jump Pack
Tentacles- In CC, model receives an additional D3 WS3 Str3 I4 attacks. No bonus for charging.
Aura of the Warp- Model gets a 5+ invulnerable save
Extra Limbs- Model gets +1A, may take one extra one-handed weapon (at its specified cost). Model may fire as if a monstrous creature.
Gigantic- Model gets +1 S and +1 T, Monstrous Creature, Vulnerable to Blasts
Increased Speed-Move as Cavalry
Terrifying- Enemies within 6" are considered to have -1 LD, -2 if on a Greater Daemon
Increased Strength- +1 S
Talons- Rending
Increased Toughness- +1T
Daemon Prince- (Requires 4 or more mutations, 3 if one of them is Giant) Eternal Warrior, +D3-1 WS and BS. May not take Equipment.
Breathes Fire- Considered a Flamer
Daemonic Constitution- +1 Wound
Subduing Gaze- -1 I to enemy in assault
Protection of the gods- Eternal Warrior
Blessing of the dark gods- Instead of rolling a d3-2 for Chaotic Attributes, Roll a d4-2 instead.

Phew...now that that's done with...onto mounts. Like Daemon Weapons, I'm not too happy with these guys.

Juggernaught (b****!!) of Khorne- +1S, +1W. Fleet.
Disc of Tzeentch-+1W, Move as Bike, May move 3" in the Assault Phase
Palanquin of Nurgle- +1T and +1W, Fleet
Steed of Slaanesh- +1I, Fleet, Cavalry, Hit and Run (I thought of removing H&R from the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon and adding it the mount)

Okay, so now I want to throw in some Miscellaneous Stuff:

Daemon Runes- Reroll 1 missed to hit roll
Servo Harness- Can fortify 1 piece of terrain, meaning that models that take a cover save in the terrain receive a +1 to their cover save. In close combat, grants 1 WS3 S4 Power Weapon attack, 2 if the model charged that turn.

Combat Drugs-May choose to make as many rolls as you want, must do it at the very beginning of the turn. Roll 1d6 for each choice. Doubles means that the model takes 1 wound and gains Rage. Triples means that the model suffers instant death, even if it can avoid it via Eternal Warrior or any other means. Just because you're an Eternal Warrior doesn't mean that you can survive when your brain and all of your internal organs disintegrate or dissolve because of the the insane amount of drugs you're taking.

1. Fleet
2. +1 A
3. +1 S
4. +1 I (that's an I, not an L. I don't want to know your A/S/L, you weirdo.)
5. Hit and Run
6. Reroll any 1's in Close Combat


That's all for now.
By the way, a clarification on Daemon Prince- I'm not Arby. The reason it can't take Equipment is because I listed Equipment as Bikes and Jump Packs. Yeah.

Also, another clarification so that I don't look like Arby. Gigantic has Vulnerable to Blasts because it makes sense (most of the time) and it's also a balance issue. Try telling your resident IG player that your gigantic Daemon Prince has 5 wounds, oh, and T7.

Unless, of course, someone here has a better way to make Gigantic work, in which case I'm all ears. Same for Combat Drugs. I'm not happy with them as it's really just a huge rip off of the DE codex.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Alright, so I'm expecting to be mauled when I post this, so I'm getting out my shield and asbestos suit.

*ignites flamer*

Vladsimpaler wrote:They work like this: Cultists may take up to 2 mutations, Chaos Space Marines may take up to 3, Possessed may take up to 5, and Lords/Aspiring Champions may take as many as they wish. Units that I didn't specify (i.e. Raptors and the like) may take up to 4.

Ok, straight away we have an issue. I like the idea of mutations, but I'm a big proponent of KISS. I would say have three levels of mutation:

Underling Level (so cultists and the like - 1 mutation per squad)
Henchman Level (so regular CSM squads, Havocs, basic Cult units, etc. - 2 mutations)
Elite/Command Level (Possessed, Chosen, HQ's - 3 Mutations each)

It means that rather than checking to see what a Raptor unit gets or a CSM unit compared to a Havoc unit gets, you just have to remember what category the unit falls into. Raptor is regular troop level? 2 mutation. It's a Chaos Lord? 3. Some Cultists? Just 1.

Otherwise the idea is fine.

Vladsimpaler wrote:However, if you add a Mark to a unit then you may take 1 additional mutation.

That's cool, opens the way for God-specific mutations.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Wings- Move as a Jump Pack

You would allow every squad to get this? Why take Raptors?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Tentacles- In CC, model receives an additional D3 WS3 Str3 I4 attacks. No bonus for charging.

This rule will require you to roll multiple D3's to work out who gets to attack, and contains an exception to a standing rule (no +1A for charging). The rule is therefore clunky and needlessly complicated. +1A will do here.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Aura of the Warp- Model gets a 5+ invulnerable save

Again, you want squads taking this?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Extra Limbs- Model gets +1A, may take one extra one-handed weapon (at its specified cost). Model may fire as if a monstrous creature.

Ok, three rules in one, and redundant with the presence of tentacles. I actually liked 'Daemonic Mutation' in the Real Chaos Codex because it covered all of these mutational archetypes quite well. It was abstracted, but it led to less rules. Remember the acronym MRS - More Rules Syndrome - it's when you're adding more rules upon more rules for (seemingly) the sake of adding more rules. Here we have a single item that not only has three rules, but allows it to use other rules or take even further options (one that is an exception to a rule, and another that allows it to act as another model type without being that model type). Definate MRS here.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Gigantic- Model gets +1 S and +1 T, Monstrous Creature, Vulnerable to Blasts

Vulnerable to Blasts? Why? Greater Daemons and Daemonic Princes are. Unecessary.

Also you have to clarify whether the increase to S and T is to its base values. That's the difference between S9 or S10 with a power fist, and T4(5) and a flat T5.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Speed-Move as Cavalry

Once again, you want whole squads taking this? Terminators?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Terrifying- Enemies within 6" are considered to have -1 LD, -2 if on a Greater Daemon

Nothing wrong there.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Strength- +1 S

Really? That's what it does? I thought 'Increased Strength' was going to make more more friendly, not stronger.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Talons- Rending

Do you want whole units taking this?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Toughness- +1T

Does this not step on the toes of Plague Marines? Is this T4(5) or T5?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemon Prince- (Requires 4 or more mutations, 3 if one of them is Giant) Eternal Warrior, +D3-1 WS and BS, Monstrous Creature. May not take Equipment.

Less dice rolls is better in my mind, so I'd make it a flat +2 to WS. And the idea that a Daemon Prince can't take equipment is silly. Just like in the current 'Chaos' Codex... Daemon Princes can't take Daemon Weapons, which is idiotic.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Breathes Fire- Considered a Flamer

Whole squads with flamers?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemonic Constitution- +1 Wound

This mutation has plenty going for it, but do you want whole squads to have +1W?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Subduing Gaze- -1 I to enemy in assault

Ok, that's powerful. I'd expect this one to be 20-30 points and therefore far too expensive to take on regular units.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Protection of the gods- Eternal Warrior

There's nothing inherently wrong with allowing everyone to get this, even if most won't have a use for it!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Juggernaught (b****!!) of Khorne- +1S, +1W. Fleet.
Disc of Tzeentch-+1W, Move as Bike, May move 3" in the Assault Phase
Palanquin of Nurgle- +1T and +1W, Fleet
Steed of Slaanesh- +1I, Fleet, Cavalry, Hit and Run (I thought of removing H&R from the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon and adding it the mount)

Like them all. Might steal them myself!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemon Runes- Reroll 1 missed to hit roll
Servo Harness- Can fortify 1 piece of terrain, meaning that models that take a cover save in the terrain receive a +1 to their cover save. In close combat, grants 1 WS3 S4 Power Weapon attack, 2 if the model charged that turn.

Well... do Chaos still have TechMarines in the fluff? I know the Iron Warriors do, but what about everyone else?

Vladsimpaler wrote:1. Fleet
2. +1 A
3. +1 S
4. +1 I (that's an I, not an L. I don't want to know your A/S/L, you weirdo.)
5. Hit and Run
6. Reroll any 1's in Close Combat

This is quite an interesting way of doing Combat Drugs. So you roll to see what you get (so if I roll a 1, I get fleet, roll a 5, I get Hit & Run). And doubles is a wound, triples = dead. I like it quite a bit, because it's not the random Possessed from the 'Chaos' Codex in that you're stuck with them, you get to re-do it each turn. One thing I'd say (or make sure of) is that you roll at the start of the turn and even, to make it more fun, you can do it in a 'Hit Me' blackjack fashion. Roll a D6, see what you get, then choose to roll another, and so on until you either roll a double or chicken out and don't roll any more dice.

Vladsimpaler wrote:By the way, a clarification on Daemon Prince- I'm not Arby. The reason it can't take Equipment is because I listed Equipment as Bikes and Jump Packs. Yeah.

That's not a good reason. You can restrict items to Daemon Princes within their rules. You shouldn't need blanket arbitrary restrictions to get past your own Codex.

Still like what you've got though.

I've got an idea for an army wide rule. It comes from the thought that chaos ought to bring chaos incarnate with it.

At the start of every turn, with the Chaos player starting and the the players alternating, a d6 is rolled and then consult the following chart/list for the number rolled. All armies may use the benefits of this table.

1-No noticeable effect

2-Unnatural sight(Any model may add +1 to their BS for that turn)

3-Low gravity(Any model or unit may move an additional 3" in both the movement and assault phases for that turn)

4-Unnatural strength(Any model or unit may add +1 to their strength for that turn)

5-Fury(Any model or unit may add +1 attack to their profile for that turn)

6-Unholy Protection(Any model or unit may choose to add +1 to any save, armor, cover, or inv taken for that turn)

Any models or units choosing to beneifit from these effects will be marked and at the end of the turn(Player turn?) will roll a D6 for every model that used said benifits. Any 6 rolled indicates having attracted the notice of the Chaos Deities and the model is removed from play to represent being pulled into the warp.


What do you think?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Alright, so I'm expecting to be mauled when I post this, so I'm getting out my shield and asbestos suit.

*ignites flamer*

Vladsimpaler wrote:They work like this: Cultists may take up to 2 mutations, Chaos Space Marines may take up to 3, Possessed may take up to 5, and Lords/Aspiring Champions may take as many as they wish. Units that I didn't specify (i.e. Raptors and the like) may take up to 4.

Ok, straight away we have an issue. I like the idea of mutations, but I'm a big proponent of KISS. I would say have three levels of mutation:

Underling Level (so cultists and the like - 1 mutation per squad)
Henchman Level (so regular CSM squads, Havocs, basic Cult units, etc. - 2 mutations)
Elite/Command Level (Possessed, Chosen, HQ's - 3 Mutations each)

It means that rather than checking to see what a Raptor unit gets or a CSM unit compared to a Havoc unit gets, you just have to remember what category the unit falls into. Raptor is regular troop level? 2 mutation. It's a Chaos Lord? 3. Some Cultists? Just 1.

Otherwise the idea is fine.

Sorry, for some reason I really like over-complicating things. This will work perfectly. Thank you!

Vladsimpaler wrote:However, if you add a Mark to a unit then you may take 1 additional mutation.

That's cool, opens the way for God-specific mutations.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Wings- Move as a Jump Pack

You would allow every squad to get this? Why take Raptors?

Because I've got some special stuff planned for Raptors, I.E. they can move 3" in the assault phase if they don't assault. I do see your point though.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Tentacles- In CC, model receives an additional D3 WS3 Str3 I4 attacks. No bonus for charging.

This rule will require you to roll multiple D3's to work out who gets to attack, and contains an exception to a standing rule (no +1A for charging). The rule is therefore clunky and needlessly complicated. +1A will do here.

Bleh, should've specified that it's for the entire squad that you roll the D3 for. Will change it to +1A.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Aura of the Warp- Model gets a 5+ invulnerable save

Again, you want squads taking this?

At this point I'm realizing that I need a complete overhaul of the mutations system...crap.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Extra Limbs- Model gets +1A, may take one extra one-handed weapon (at its specified cost). Model may fire as if a monstrous creature.

Ok, three rules in one, and redundant with the presence of tentacles. I actually liked 'Daemonic Mutation' in the Real Chaos Codex because it covered all of these mutational archetypes quite well. It was abstracted, but it led to less rules. Remember the acronym MRS - More Rules Syndrome - it's when you're adding more rules upon more rules for (seemingly) the sake of adding more rules. Here we have a single item that not only has three rules, but allows it to use other rules or take even further options (one that is an exception to a rule, and another that allows it to act as another model type without being that model type). Definate MRS here.

Yes, it seems that I'm plagued by MRS...will remove.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Gigantic- Model gets +1 S and +1 T, Monstrous Creature, Vulnerable to Blasts

Vulnerable to Blasts? Why? Greater Daemons and Daemonic Princes are. Unecessary.

Also you have to clarify whether the increase to S and T is to its base values. That's the difference between S9 or S10 with a power fist, and T4(5) and a flat T5.

And this is why you don't publish books without playtesting them. To be honest, that's a tough choice and I'd need to think a bit about it.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Speed-Move as Cavalry

Once again, you want whole squads taking this? Terminators?

Feth no.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Terrifying- Enemies within 6" are considered to have -1 LD, -2 if on a Greater Daemon

Nothing wrong there.

Phew!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Strength- +1 S

Really? That's what it does? I thought 'Increased Strength' was going to make more more friendly, not stronger.

See, I was toying with the idea of making it give rubber duckies to the entire squad...

Vladsimpaler wrote:Talons- Rending

Do you want whole units taking this?

Not really. Balls.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Increased Toughness- +1T

Does this not step on the toes of Plague Marines? Is this T4(5) or T5?

It doesn't step on the toes of them because it's going to be more expensive than the Mark of Nurgle, which actually grants this. So (these are just random prices) while the MoN might be +10 points, this ability on its own might cost +15.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemon Prince- (Requires 4 or more mutations, 3 if one of them is Giant) Eternal Warrior, +D3-1 WS and BS, Monstrous Creature. May not take Equipment.

Less dice rolls is better in my mind, so I'd make it a flat +2 to WS. And the idea that a Daemon Prince can't take equipment is silly. Just like in the current 'Chaos' Codex... Daemon Princes can't take Daemon Weapons, which is idiotic.

Like I clarified, Equipment is really just bikes and jump packs. Though I should probably change the name to something else. Daemon Princes can definitely take Daemon Weapons in this book, however.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Breathes Fire- Considered a Flamer

Whole squads with flamers?

Balls.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemonic Constitution- +1 Wound

This mutation has plenty going for it, but do you want whole squads to have +1W?

Okay I'm definitely having an overhaul.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Subduing Gaze- -1 I to enemy in assault

Ok, that's powerful. I'd expect this one to be 20-30 points and therefore far too expensive to take on regular units.

Was the Mark of Slaanesh expensive in the 'real' Chaos codex?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Juggernaught (b****!!) of Khorne- +1S, +1W. Fleet.
Disc of Tzeentch-+1W, Move as Bike, May move 3" in the Assault Phase
Palanquin of Nurgle- +1T and +1W, Fleet
Steed of Slaanesh- +1I, Fleet, Cavalry, Hit and Run (I thought of removing H&R from the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon and adding it the mount)

Like them all. Might steal them myself!

Awesome!

Vladsimpaler wrote:Daemon Runes- Reroll 1 missed to hit roll
Servo Harness- Can fortify 1 piece of terrain, meaning that models that take a cover save in the terrain receive a +1 to their cover save. In close combat, grants 1 WS3 S4 Power Weapon attack, 2 if the model charged that turn.

Well... do Chaos still have TechMarines in the fluff? I know the Iron Warriors do, but what about everyone else?

It's really just there for the Iron Warriors. Plus, I figure that there has to be at least one other chapter with a techmarine, or something like it.

Vladsimpaler wrote:1. Fleet
2. +1 A
3. +1 S
4. +1 I (that's an I, not an L. I don't want to know your A/S/L, you weirdo.)
5. Hit and Run
6. Reroll any 1's in Close Combat

This is quite an interesting way of doing Combat Drugs. So you roll to see what you get (so if I roll a 1, I get fleet, roll a 5, I get Hit & Run). And doubles is a wound, triples = dead. I like it quite a bit, because it's not the random Possessed from the 'Chaos' Codex in that you're stuck with them, you get to re-do it each turn. One thing I'd say (or make sure of) is that you roll at the start of the turn and even, to make it more fun, you can do it in a 'Hit Me' blackjack fashion. Roll a D6, see what you get, then choose to roll another, and so on until you either roll a double or chicken out and don't roll any more dice.

Okay, so make it the start of every turn, and in a 'Hit Me' blackjack fashion. I like it. I actually like this a lot.

Vladsimpaler wrote:By the way, a clarification on Daemon Prince- I'm not Arby. The reason it can't take Equipment is because I listed Equipment as Bikes and Jump Packs. Yeah.

That's not a good reason. You can restrict items to Daemon Princes within their rules. You shouldn't need blanket arbitrary restrictions to get past your own Codex.

Still like what you've got though.

Thats why I made it a choice. I like the idea of adding temptation with the chance of immediate punishment for indulging in the gifts of the Chaos gods.

It also why you roll for each model as opposed to units as a whole.

I got the idea from a tournament mission where the gravity varied turn to turn in a similar manner.

focusedfire wrote:Thats why I made it a choice. I like the idea of adding temptation with the chance of immediate punishment for indulging in the gifts of the Chaos gods.

It also why you roll for each model as opposed to units as a whole.

I got the idea from a tournament mission where the gravity varied turn to turn in a similar manner.

Woah, wait, each model? No offense but that would take a lifetime for an Ork horde or for an Imperial Guard infantry army.

Though that's why you made it a choice, I suppose.

Hmm...perhaps a section on special rules for Daemon Worlds? It'll have to be put on the backburner for the rest of the codex, but it could very well work.

Another idea that might make the current incarnation a little more palatable.

Better bonuses for themes.

If you run a Khorn style HQ(With the mark) then for every beserker squad you take, the HQ and the beserkers get +1 HtH attack for every"Friendly" Beserker squad on the table.

Similar stacking effects for theming your armies to the other chaos deities but you may take only one type of mark per army.

If the Deamon prince was in such a marked squad then he benefits from these effects from being the avatar of said Chaos god.

If the Deamon Prince is taken in an army with out any marks or as Chaos undivided(God what an oxymoron) Then the prince gains a varied ability for every cultist squad taken. Haven't thought the abilities through yet.


Would something like this be a move in the right direction?

Mmm...I'm not sure. On one hand, it's cool, but on the other hand, 6 Str 5 attacks on the charge from each Khorne Beserker (if you have like 3 squads) is a bit over the top.

It'd also be very hard to cost.

In addition, I'm on the fence between just having Chaos Space Marines with a buttload (a metric buttload, not a standard buttload) of options like Khornate Axes and Noise Weaponry and whatnot, so that you can make your own Cult Troops without them being spelled out for you.

However, just making different troop choices of Khorne Beserkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, and Thousand Sons and 'normal' Chaos Space Marines is a lot easier.

But then again, I've never done things that are easy, now, have I?

As for mutations for squads, I've looked at some of the old Slaves to Darkness stuff and come up with these:

Terrible Smell- The model(s) is considered to have defensive grenades.
Cloud of Flies- The model(s) receive a 5+ cover save.
Agile- +1 I. (Duh)
Psychopathic- Rage, Roll 2 dice for Run and choose highest.

Obviously these won't be all of them, but it's a start and you have to start somewhere!

-Vlad

I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but as this is April Fool's, well, here's a nice little profile. Keep in mind that I have absolutely no point values yet. At all. I'm redoing, like, everything. This character will probably end up being around, let's say 120+ points? Daemon Prince is going to be like +50 points at least.

Firaeveus Carron, X points

WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:4 LD:10 Sv:3+/5+

Weapons: Khornate Chainaxe, Melta Gun, Plasma Pistol

Wargear: Power Armor. Aura of the Warp, Blessing of the Dark gods, Increased Strength, Terrifying

Options: May become a Daemon Prince for +Y points

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Essence of the Warp
Chaotic Mutations

"We should take away their metal boxes..." At the start of the shooting phase, nominate one Chaos Space Marine unit within 12". If it passes a LD test, any weapons that they fire at a model with an armor value get +1 to their armor penetration rule.



Just kidding. Or am I?

Again getting ahead of myself, but I'm also planning the return of the Doom Rider, which will be the only Daemon Prince able to be on a bike.

#1: Codex Chaos. Chaos Space Marines, Daemons and Lost & the Damned in one big book, totally mix and match with no restrictions.
#2: Chosen and terminators that have all the special abilities of the big four and one additional god-specific ability each to represent their elite status.
#3: Bring back the special rules for the other traitor legions and a basic list of lesser generic army abilities that players could use to create their own chaos space marine/traitor legions.

warpcrafter wrote:#1: Codex Chaos. Chaos Space Marines, Daemons and Lost & the Damned in one big book, totally mix and match with no restrictions.

It's going to take a lot longer, trust me, but I'll try it.

#2: Chosen and terminators that have all the special abilities of the big four and one additional god-specific ability each to represent their elite status.

I was actually going to go down the route of only having Chosen get access to Terminator armor. I will definitely take your idea into consideration.

#3: Bring back the special rules for the other traitor legions and a basic list of lesser generic army abilities that players could use to create their own chaos space marine/traitor legions.

Hmm, so is it like, "Iron Warriors +1 PPM. You get X, World Eaters +2 PPM, you get X and Y" and so on and so forth?

As I said a little bit before, I am making it so that Aspiring Champions can take a bunch of different abilities that they bestow upon squads. It's really for balance reasons.

I really don't want this codex to be a heaping slew of abilities that's confusing even for a veteran. And I want it to be a little bit balanced at least, so that it doesn't annihilate other armies nor does it have 'no-brainers' so some customization may have to be sacrificed.

Though then again, I knew that when I came into this project, I'd have a big burden. And I'm willing to take it on.

I'd rather the current Codex be kept and changed to be called Chaos Renegades or something because if you look at the current dex that's what its set up like. It looks geared up for people's personal Chapters, and Warbands.

Further more I think the original Chaos Legions should have there own dex, because you can't capture the spirit of those groups with a Renegade SM geared dex. How are you supposed to have the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers currently? In name only thats how.

Speaking of the Word Bearers, honestly up until a couple days I had forgotten about them.

Accursed Crozius will give a 5+ save, Essence of the Warp, and an inspiring ability. Like, all units within 6" use the bearer of the Crozius' LD for all morale and pinning tests. Something of that sort.


As for Daemons...all of the ones in the current codex (sans Heralds)?

This is going to take a while.

LatD is going to be fairly easy. Just change some points costs, and ta-dah!

Daemons shouldn't be too hard either. Just make some stat changes and some point costs, and a direct port will probably work out.

CSM is going to be the trouble spot I'm afraid.

:edit:

How about these profiles for Greater Daemons?

BloodThirster- WS:10 BS:7 S:8 T:7 W:4 I:6 A:5 Ld:10 Sv:4+/3+
Lord of Change- WS:5 BS:10 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:5 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:--/3+
Great Unclean One-WS:6 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:2 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:--/4+
Keeper of Secrets- WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:4 I:10 A:6 Ld:10 Sv:--/4+

I feel a bit bad about the GUO not getting a 10 in a stat area though...

Go for some Sacred Number stuff on the GD's - GUO should be T7 W7!!!

Proposed Chaos Codex: See Chaos Codex V3.5