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warpcrafter wrote:
#2: Chosen and terminators that have all the special abilities of the big four and one additional god-specific ability each to represent their elite status.
#3: Bring back the special rules for the other traitor legions and a basic list of lesser generic army abilities that players could use to create their own chaos space marine/traitor legions.

I've been thinking about these two.

Chosen will be the only non-HQ choice to have the option for Terminator armor.

Their stat line will end up being:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4(5) W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:10 SV:3+/6+

They will not have Slow and Purposeful, even though the Mark of Tzeentch would ordinarily give them that. Also, they will have Subduing Gaze (as per the Mark of Slaanesh) but it will not count towards their mutations. They have all of the Big 4 marks. Mark of Chaos Undivided and Malal will be the exact same.

They will be able to take 3 extra mutations, 4 if they take a Mark.

As the marks would ordinarily have no effect, they will get 'different' marks, that have been changed to fit them.

Mark of Khorne- +1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Essence of the Warp (This allows invulnerable saves to be taken in addition to normal saves)
Mark of Nurgle- [I've been thinking, either they become base T5, or they get FNP.)
Mark of Slaanesh- [This is another one. Perhaps +1 Initiative?]

'Generic Daemons' hasn't been too bad.

I can theoretically use all of the mutations that I have suggested on them.

So a generic Lesser Daemon would be:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 SV: --/5+

But then they can take Wings, Breathes Fire, Extra Limbs, etc. I'm thinking of allowing infinite mutations on all of them. I.E., if you REALLY wanted to, all of your Lesser Daemons could have every single mutation. They'd be like 60 or 70 points each, though.

Well except for Giant and Daemon Prince of course! Also, probably no 'Protection of the Gods', and maybe no 'Blessing of the Dark gods'.


Finally, the big one. Legions.

I don't like the idea of sticking things like, "Hey if you want World Eaters, you get one extra troop choice and you can't take missile launchers and you get one less Heavy support slot."

Really not a big fan of that stuff.

All Lesser Daemons are going to be troops, so if you want Word Bearers, take a Chaos Lord or Champion with an Accursed Crozius, some Chaos Space Marines with Aspiring Champions with Accursed Crozius', and something that gives some Word Bearers-like ability, and then some Daemons.

If you don't like this idea, feel free to let me know.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Again, thank you so much for all of the posts that you have made! : )

No problem.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

I've been thinking about these two.

Chosen will be the only non-HQ choice to have the option for Terminator armor.

Their stat line will end up being:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4(5) W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:10 SV:3+/6+

Whats the T4(5) from?

They will not have Slow and Purposeful, even though the Mark of Tzeentch would ordinarily give them that. Also, they will have Subduing Gaze (as per the Mark of Slaanesh) but it will not count towards their mutations. They have all of the Big 4 marks. Mark of Chaos Undivided and Malal will be the exact same.

Why would they have all of the marks, chosen are not just followers of all 4 gods.

They will be able to take 3 extra mutations, 4 if they take a Mark.

As the marks would ordinarily have no effect, they will get 'different' marks, that have been changed to fit them.

Mark of Khorne- +1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Essence of the Warp (This allows invulnerable saves to be taken in addition to normal saves)
Mark of Nurgle- [I've been thinking, either they become base T5, or they get FNP.)
Mark of Slaanesh- [This is another one. Perhaps +1 Initiative?]

Why would the old marks have no effect?

'Generic Daemons' hasn't been too bad.

I can theoretically use all of the mutations that I have suggested on them.

So a generic Lesser Daemon would be:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 SV: --/5+

But then they can take Wings, Breathes Fire, Extra Limbs, etc. I'm thinking of allowing infinite mutations on all of them. I.E., if you REALLY wanted to, all of your Lesser Daemons could have every single mutation. They'd be like 60 or 70 points each, though.

Well except for Giant and Daemon Prince of course! Also, probably no 'Protection of the Gods', and maybe no 'Blessing of the Dark gods'.

Never been a big user of daemons, I much prefer the Alpha Legion and Night Lords way of thinking. So this seem ok I guess.

Finally, the big one. Legions.

I don't like the idea of sticking things like, "Hey if you want World Eaters, you get one extra troop choice and you can't take missile launchers and you get one less Heavy support slot."

Really not a big fan of that stuff.

All Lesser Daemons are going to be troops, so if you want Word Bearers, take a Chaos Lord or Champion with an Accursed Crozius, some Chaos Space Marines with Aspiring Champions with Accursed Crozius', and something that gives some Word Bearers-like ability, and then some Daemons.

If you don't like this idea, feel free to let me know.

I think the old way sounds better for Legions as what you have just mentioned is pretty much 4th Ed's idea of how the legions work. IE paint job and give them something that seems like what that legion would use.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

I've been thinking about these two.

Chosen will be the only non-HQ choice to have the option for Terminator armor.

Their stat line will end up being:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4(5) W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:10 SV:3+/6+

Whats the T4(5) from?

Well I'm really just taking what Warpcrafter said and putting it into stats. The T4(5) comes from Nurgle's mark which gives a +1T but it's not base.

They will not have Slow and Purposeful, even though the Mark of Tzeentch would ordinarily give them that. Also, they will have Subduing Gaze (as per the Mark of Slaanesh) but it will not count towards their mutations. They have all of the Big 4 marks. Mark of Chaos Undivided and Malal will be the exact same.

Why would they have all of the marks, chosen are not just followers of all 4 gods.

Again, to be honest, I'm just following what Warpcrafter said. And I'm taking a little liberty with their fluff. They won't be really followers, but they'll have accumulated literally millennia of experience so they would have gotten many, many blessings.

They will be able to take 3 extra mutations, 4 if they take a Mark.

As the marks would ordinarily have no effect, they will get 'different' marks, that have been changed to fit them.

Mark of Khorne- +1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Essence of the Warp (This allows invulnerable saves to be taken in addition to normal saves)
Mark of Nurgle- [I've been thinking, either they become base T5, or they get FNP.)
Mark of Slaanesh- [This is another one. Perhaps +1 Initiative?]

Why would the old marks have no effect?

Well, the Chosen get the +1 T, A, and W, and they also get the Subduing Gaze. So in order to avoid redundancy I created new marks for them.

'Generic Daemons' hasn't been too bad.

I can theoretically use all of the mutations that I have suggested on them.

So a generic Lesser Daemon would be:

WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 SV: --/5+

But then they can take Wings, Breathes Fire, Extra Limbs, etc. I'm thinking of allowing infinite mutations on all of them. I.E., if you REALLY wanted to, all of your Lesser Daemons could have every single mutation. They'd be like 60 or 70 points each, though.

Well except for Giant and Daemon Prince of course! Also, probably no 'Protection of the Gods', and maybe no 'Blessing of the Dark gods'.

Never been a big user of daemons, I much prefer the Alpha Legion and Night Lords way of thinking. So this seem ok I guess.

Well there's these for people who want to make their own daemons, and then there's also the Bloodletters and Plaguebearers and Furies and whatnot.

Finally, the big one. Legions.

I don't like the idea of sticking things like, "Hey if you want World Eaters, you get one extra troop choice and you can't take missile launchers and you get one less Heavy support slot."

Really not a big fan of that stuff.

All Lesser Daemons are going to be troops, so if you want Word Bearers, take a Chaos Lord or Champion with an Accursed Crozius, some Chaos Space Marines with Aspiring Champions with Accursed Crozius', and something that gives some Word Bearers-like ability, and then some Daemons.

If you don't like this idea, feel free to let me know.

I think the old way sounds better for Legions as what you have just mentioned is pretty much 4th Ed's idea of how the legions work. IE paint job and give them something that seems like what that legion would use.

I guess that I'm a bit more of, well, a newbie and as such making a little box where you can choose one of the Legions (or a renegade chapter or whatever) just seems weird.

In the Chaos Codex, was it essentially just:

Choose one:

Iron Warriors- You get 1 extra heavy support, and may take stuff from the IG. -2 Fast Attack slots.

Night Lords- You can Infiltrate. +1 Fast Attack slots, -2 Heavy Support Slots

Thousand Sons- All take the Mark of Tzeentch and can put Sorcerors in squads

World Eaters- All take Mark of Khorne, all get Rage and +1 WS


Something of that sort?

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Well I'm really just taking what Warpcrafter said and putting it into stats. The T4(5) comes from Nurgle's mark which gives a +1T but it's not base.

Ok

Again, to be honest, I'm just following what Warpcrafter said. And I'm taking a little liberty with their fluff. They won't be really followers, but they'll have accumulated literally millennia of experience so they would have gotten many, many blessings.

Ok I suppose that works

Well, the Chosen get the +1 T, A, and W, and they also get the Subduing Gaze. So in order to avoid redundancy I created new marks for them.

Ok then

Well there's these for people who want to make their own daemons, and then there's also the Bloodletters and Plaguebearers and Furies and whatnot.

Not really sure why they'd need that when they can just stick with the normal ones.

[quote
I guess that I'm a bit more of, well, a newbie and as such making a little box where you can choose one of the Legions (or a renegade chapter or whatever) just seems weird.

In the Chaos Codex, was it essentially just:

Choose one:

Iron Warriors- You get 1 extra heavy support, and may take stuff from the IG. -2 Fast Attack slots.

Night Lords- You can Infiltrate. +1 Fast Attack slots, -2 Heavy Support Slots

Thousand Sons- All take the Mark of Tzeentch and can put Sorcerors in squads

World Eaters- All take Mark of Khorne, all get Rage and +1 WS

Something of that sort?

BrotherStynier wrote:

They also had different options to take with them like the Iron Warriors could take Servo Harnesses as well as Basilisks and Vindicators, Alpha Legion got Infiltrate and Cultists, Night Lords got stealth, night vision and enslaved furries, plus the extra raptors, 1ksons got Sorcerer Chosen as well, small blast bolters. Things like that, things to give them each a little different amounts of character.

Hmmm...

And these didn't cost any extra points? Just free? Well obviously the equipment wouldn't be. But the actual factions?

I think I could do something of that sort. If it's what the people want, they'll get it!

Some other things that I've thought about:

-Possessed. Why not just make them an upgrade to Space Marines, a la Daemon Princes being an upgrade for Chaos Lords and Champions.

Meaning, that if the Chaos Space Marines take a certain amount of mutations (probably 1 less than the max) then for a certain amount of points they become Possessed? Possessed would definitely have Chaotic Attributes, and I could give them some other random and weird crap.

-Also, I mentioned a generic vehicle for the Chaos armies that could be used to represent Stalk Tanks and other stuff like Armored Limos for those who want to perhaps proxy Genestealer Cults.

And more and more, I am thinking of making the generic vehicle a BS3 AV 10 10 10 vehicle. But get this: The options are essentially the VDR. There would be some limits, of course. Probably nothing above AV12, and only maybe 3 or 4 weapons. And there would be options for transport capacity, of course.

Build-your-own vehicle, essentially. I think that it would be fun. What does everyone else think about this?

Well some of those things cost extra points but it was like one point per model to give them Stealth, 3pts for a Commander to infiltrate 1pt for a "Normal" model, things like that.

The Possessed idea wouldn't work as much because the "gifts" are just that gifts from the gods to turn them into immortal warriors, should they have proven their worth. I can look at the older Possessed today, and compare them to the new ones inoder to help you with that.

BrotherStynier wrote:Well some of those things cost extra points but it was like one point per model to give them Stealth, 3pts for a Commander to infiltrate 1pt for a "Normal" model, things like that.

Ah, okay, cool.

The Possessed idea wouldn't work as much because the "gifts" are just that gifts from the gods to turn them into immortal warriors, should they have proven their worth. I can look at the older Possessed today, and compare them to the new ones inoder to help you with that.

Thank you, that would be a huge help.

Ok 'ere we go;

3.5 Ed Possessed

WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 4
W 1
A 1 (2 for AC)
I 4
Ld 10
Sv 3/5

Bolt Pistol, CCW, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Strength

Can take any Mark, no Vet Abilities

May take a single on of the following
Daemonic Flight - 15pts per model
Daemonic Talons - 5pts per model
Daemonic Fire - 5pts per model
Daemonic Visage- 2pts per model
Daemonic Mutation- 10pts per model

22pts a Model

5-10 models a squad

AC upgrade 10pts

May take a Rhino for 50pts, if they dont have Daemonic Flight.

4th Ed

WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 1
A 2 (3 for AC)
I 4
Ld 10
Sv 3

Power Armor, CCW, 5+ Invuln, Fearless, Daemonkin

Any Chaos Icon;
Glory-5pts
Slaanesh-20pts
Khorne-30pts
Nurgle-50pts
Tzeentch-40pts

26pts a model

AC upgrade 10pts

5-20 model squads

May take a Rhino

Daemon Kin- Roll a D6 at the start of the Game on a;

1 Scouts
2 Furious Charge
3 Fleet of Foot
4 Rending
5 Feel no Pain
6 Power Weapons


In 3.5 the models cost less points though they can easily become more expensive depending on the Daemonic Abilities you take and certainly have more flavor, you'd also have to buy more models if you want different squads and have them equipt differently. They could fly, shoot fire from their hands, get extra attacks that give them rending ect.

4th Ed seems to proved you with a cheap Elites choice if you want more Close Combat troops that have random abilities, they are cheaper than taking a Squad of Chosen with 4 twin lightning claws and a special weapon but barely, and they are only 4pts a model less than CSM Terminators that have Power Weapons a 2 up save, and a TL bolter for 30pts standard.

Very cool, thank you very much!

I will definitely be using the 3.5 Possessed as a template.

Anyway, unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I do a lot of stuff by streams of consciousness, so I came up with this. And yes, it's a remake, inspired a bit by the new FW model.

Bloodslaughterer of Khorne

WS:5 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:3 LD:8 SV:3+/6+

Weapons: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Dual Khornate Chain Axes
Wargear: Blessing of Khorne, Mark of Khorne
Mutations: Terrifying

Special Rules:
Relentless
Moves 10"
Terrifying- As per the Mutation. Gives -1LD to enemies within 6".
Blessing of Khorne- Acts as a Psychic Hood
Khornate Chain Axe- Gives -1 SV to models it wounds. Dual Khornate Chain Axes give +1A.
Mark of Khorne- Fearless, +1A

Whenever the Bloodslaughterer of Khorne rolls a 6 in any of its 'to-hit' rolls, it may gain an extra attack.

May take 1 for every World Eaters Chaos Space Marine squad. Does not take up an FOC slot. Can't capture objectives but may contest.


----
My notes:

To be honest, it's really hard. Khorne is kind of my favorite of the Chaos gods, so giving him a bunch of stuff is too easy. Hell, I was toying with a Khorne tank that was kind of like the LR Punisher. The Bloodslaughterer is the one thing I'm doing to kind of appease myself. That's it for Khorne-love. I swear. I will go and make some nice stuff for the other gods. I promise.

The Slaughterer is a fun kind of vehicle/monster hybrid. It gets 5 attacks on the charge, and more if it rolls any 6's. I'm figuring about 40-60 points. Yes, in case you were wondering, that's about the same as an Ogryn. But it gets 5 attacks, has a TL heavy bolter, a 3+ save, and gives -1 to Saves, and it's fearless.

I'm leaning to the lower side of the 40-60, but then a second glance makes me think at least 55.

Opinions, please?

By the way, I've been thinking.

Could Chosen take Jetbikes?

I've read some older background where some Legion (I think that it was the Emperor's Children) had Jetbikes.

And I'd probably end up allowing 0-1 squads of Chosen being allowed Jetbikes, and Chaos Lords having 0-1 access to Jetbikes.

Meaning, if you have 2 Chaos Lords, only one of them can take a Jetbike.

They'll be priced fairly, but I want them to be rare so only the cream of the crop have access to the jetbikes.

At most, maybe 11 Jetbikes (if I allow Chosen to be 3-10), and even then, that should be a fair chunk of points, but definitely something fun and different, imo.

:edit: Also, LatD will have access to Rhinos but they will be BS3. Squads taking Rhinos will not be relegated to Fast Attack.

I'm thinking of making them 6 points each. Guardsmen stats and equipment, but they also have Infiltrate if they're not led by an Aspiring Champion or other independent character except for a human HQ.

Enforcers will be squad upgrades and they will have access to Eviscerators and whatnot.

There will be Rogue Psykers. These may also end up being squad upgrades or Elites, I'm personally leaning towards Elites.

There will be upgrades for vehicles like 'Broadcaster of Hate', which will invigorate your own troops while decreasing the moral of your enemies. Perhaps +1 or +2 to Combat Resolution?

Mutants and Big Mutants: A definite.

Chaos Spawn: Will be reverted to essentially LatD stats and point costs.

There will be different marks for Vehicles, like Dreadnoughts and Defilers. They will probably be as follows:

Mark of Khorne-+1WS
Mark of Tzeentch- Is Obscured if not within 18"
Mark of Nurgle- +1AV, to a maximum of 14
Mark of Slaanesh- Fleet

Dreadnoughts will have Rage in lieu of their random cruddy table.

Defilers will actually be a threat. I may even give it Lumbering Behemoth. Would kind of make sense. But then again it's a Walker. Hrm.

It'll have WS3 and BS3, but will have Str 10. And 4 attacks at least. If CC Defilers are your sort of thing. They will have an upgrade to the Chaos Daemons Defiler. Its name escapes me at the moment.

They wouldn't all be like the DA Jet Bike would they? Because I can see that being incredibly broken, in fact jet bikes for them could turn out horribly broken regardless, this idea needs play testing.

In fact most of these rules need play testing, but I'd play test the CSM Jet Bikes now.

BrotherStynier wrote:They wouldn't all be like the DA Jet Bike would they? Because I can see that being incredibly broken, in fact jet bikes for them could turn out horribly broken regardless, this idea needs play testing.

In fact most of these rules need play testing, but I'd play test the CSM Jet Bikes now.

They will be like a 'normal' Jet Bike if there is such a thing.

They won't come with Plasma Cannons standard. It probably won't even end up being an option.

These will be really expensive, too. At least like +30 points or something of that sort as even normal Jet Bikes are pretty good. So even if you wanted to have a bunch of Jet Bikes, 5 jet bikes is 150 points. And that's not even including the actual Chosen, which will cost a pretty penny themselves.

Actually, why not make it so that a Chaos Lord needs to take a Jet Bike before the Chosen can?

Normal for Jet bikes would be Eldar Jet bikes, the 'Standard' for Marine bikes these day is Two TL Storm Bolters.

The Jet bike better cost more that 30pts on the Lord because thats what a normal bike costs for him.

BrotherStynier wrote:Normal for Jet bikes would be Eldar Jet bikes, the 'Standard' for Marine bikes these day is Two TL Storm Bolters.

The Jet bike better cost more that 30pts on the Lord because thats what a normal bike costs for him.

Well since Chaos Space Marines don't have Storm Bolters, I could see them having a TL Assault Bolter.

It will cost a lot more on the Lord. I was just throwing around point costs tbh. Perhaps like 40 for the Chosen, and 60 for the Lord?

As you can see I do stream of consciousness.

So even a squad of 5 Chosen Jetbikes would be like 300 points. Of course then again they'd have like T4(6) and 2 wounds each and a 3+ save. Then it doesn't seem as bad.

Here's some more, how shall we say, god-specific mutations? These will also only be allowed on HQ choices. For obvious reasons. There are 3 for each Chaos god. There's only 2 for Khorne, because, embarrassingly enough, I can't think of a third. Its effect would probably be, "Any to hit roll of a 6 allows another attack" or something of that sort.

Khorne-
*Brass Body of Khorne: The Blood God detests magic more than perhaps anything. In order to protect his followers from those cowardly enough resort to magic, he has bestowed upon them a brass body. Models with this mutation are considered to have a Psychic Hood and may use it whenever a Psychic Power would affect it or its unit. Also, the model gets Increased Toughness (+1 T) but this is not included in its base stat as per normal.

*Face of a Bloodthirster: The patron in question's head has been replaced with the snarling head of a Bloodthirster! This is incredibly fearsome, obviously. This model is considered to have Terrifying, but instead of the normal -1 LD to enemy models within 6", enemy models within 6" get -2 LD instead!

* ?


Tzeentch-

*Ever Changing Body: Just like Tzeentch or a Lord of Change, this follower of Tzeentch's body constantly changes and forms. This mutation grants Chaotic Attributes. If the bearer of this mutation already had Chaotic Attributes, it may reroll it, but it must choose the second result. (Chaotic Attributes grants D3-2 stats to any of these: S, T, W, I, A. Roll before deployment.)

*Arms of a Pink Horror: This patron of Tzeentch's arms has been replaced with the arms and hands of a Pink Horror. This model may not have any weapons whatsoever, but has two shooting attacks:

1. R:Template Str:X AP:3 Assault 2 (Wounds on a 3+)
2. R:24" Str: 6 AP: -- Assault 2d6-2

*Reforming Body: Sometimes a disciple of Tzeentch's body will not change, but in its stead the body will reform when damaged. This means that if an arm is cut off, another one will grow in its place. To represent this, at the end of any phase when this model takes a wound, roll a d6 for every wound taken On a 5+ it ignores that wound, unless the model has suffered instant death.

Nurgle-
*Disgusting Sight: This particular devotee of Nurgle is so inexplicably disgusting that those who even look at are repulsed and gag uncontrollably. All models within 6" lose 1 attack , to a minimum of 1, and this model is considered to have defensive grenades. (Units or models attacking this model do not gain any benefits for charging.) Units or models with the Mark of Nurgle ignore this effect.

*Nurgling Infestation: The unfortunate bearer of this mutation is quite literally filled with hives of Nurglings. However, in return for a shelter, the Nurglings will attack those who would try to kill their home. When in Close Combat, the enemy takes an additional D3 Str 3 hits.

*Cloud of Flies: Just as the name describes, this follower of Nurgle is covered in a cloud of flies that obscure him. Models firing at this model get a -1 to their BS. (If their BS is so bad as to be 1, then they cannot shoot!) Models attempting to hit this model in CC get a -1 to their WS. (This means that those who could barely fight with a WS of 1 cannot hit at all.)

Slaanesh-

*Alluring Musk: Units that do not have the Mark of Slaanesh within 2" at the beginning of every turn (even if in assault) must take a Leadership test, even if they are Fearless, for even those who do not fear can be turned in other ways. If the models fail the test then they only hit on a 6.

*Ear Piercing Scream: This particular servant of Slaanesh has a scream that makes ears bleed, and pierces armor. A mortal who would hear this scream fall to the ground wailing in pain as his ears gush blood. To represent this, instead of shooting, declare that you are using this attack. Using the flamer template, choose a non-Mark of Slaanesh unit that is in range. If it can be hit, the unit must take a pinning test at - X LD, where X is the amount of models under the template. In addition, they strike at -2 I instead of the normal -1 I for the Mark of Slaanesh.

*Claws of a Daemonette: This admirer of Slaanesh's arms have been replaces with the Claws of a Daemonette. Though this model may not use any of its weapons, it gains Rending, and may reroll any to wound rolls. In addition it gains a +1 Combat Resolution.

After a refreshing shower, here are some more of my thoughts.

By the way, the 3rd mutation for Khorne-

Insane Lust for Blood- It is no secret that the Blood God thirsts for Blood. It's in his title, after all. Khorne has bestowed upon this model just a tiny, miniscule fraction of his lust for blood-any more would cause a blabbering, unthinking mess of what could be a competent champion. To represent this, this model gains Rage (obviously!) and in close combat, may reroll any 1's to hit, and on a roll to hit of 6, gains an extra attack.

Chaos Spawn will get Scout, and Terrifying to cement their role as shock troops of Chaos. They will have to take the scout move.

Daemon Prince will be a 0-1 choice.

Jetbikes may be Emperor's Children only. I'm still thinking on that.

Also, like in the SM codex, choices on the Lords may open up different avenues of expansion.

As in, Chaos Lord of the World Eaters +x Points: All CSM units gain Rage and a Khornate Axe for +X PPM. This model gains Rage and a Khornate Axe. All models must take the Mark of Khorne. Any units that require the Mark of Slaanesh may not be used.

Or perhaps Chaos Lord of the Night Lords: +x Points. This model gains Infiltrate. All CSM units may gain Infiltrate for +x PPM. That sort of thing.

To be honest I kind of like this idea. Though its only real downside is that the options for a Chaos Lord are like a full page and then some. And that's just point costs and stuff he can take.

Also, Daemons will be Elites unless you take a Lord of the appropriate Legion (Word Bearers, etc.) or a Greater Daemon.

You cannot mix and match Legions. Choosing a Legion is a 0-1 choice.

If you take a Bloodthirster, for example, certain Khornate Daemons will become troops, aka Bloodletters. Slaaneshi Daemons will not be allowed, nor will any unit with the Mark of Slaanesh.

Thoughts?

Also, to those who have been reading the whole way through, thank you for your input, and just for reading.

-Vlad

Nobody? Is my stuff that bad?

Anyway, I was thinking a bit about vehicle upgrades.

There'd be the normal stuff, and some others.

I am thinking of changing Mutated Hull to: "Ignores shaken and stunned results. -1 to damage rolls if the hit is penetrating."

Also, Spikes: "For every success hit against this vehicle, do a Str 3 Ap 6 to that unit. (For example, if an Ork unit scored 10 hits against this vehicle, they would take 10 Str 3 Ap 6 hits.)"

Mutated Hull will be pretty expensive methinks. Spikes will not be so expensive on vehicles like Rhinos, but it will be on Walkers who will probably end up in CC.

Now for Chaos Spawn:

WS:4 BS:0 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:3 A:1+D6 LD:5 SV:4+

Weapons: Arms, tentacles, mouths, other (counts as 2 CCW's)

Special Rules:
Fearless, Scout
Chaotic Attributes: (+D3-2 to S, T, W, I, A. Optional, must be rolled before deployment)
Unthinking Mass of Flesh: Every turn, must take a LD test. If failed, must move towards nearest enemy unit. If passed, may be moved as normal.

I was thinking, maybe 25 or 30 points? It will get on average 6 attacks at Str 5, but it will probably get shot up pretty easily as it's really stupid. Of course, on rare occasions it will get 7 attacks at Str 6, but don't bet on it, as it can easily just have only 3 attacks at Str 4.

Of course, it also has scout so it can outflank. Chaotic Attributes just makes sense. Scout is to represent that it is kind of 'unleashed' so to speak, before the battle.

So...what do you think?

Sorry I haven't commented for a while. Allow me to fix that error.

Your Spawn: I think unthinking mass could be re-written as if failed, they have Rage for the turn. And I'm a little leery of them at present, just because they're so much BETTER than the current ones Some one might actually want these guys.

Your mutations are interesting. I don't have a full opinion on them, as it's taking some effort to wrap my head around them.

I definitely like where you're heading with the Legion ideas.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:Sorry I haven't commented for a while. Allow me to fix that error.

Your Spawn: I think unthinking mass could be re-written as if failed, they have Rage for the turn. And I'm a little leery of them at present, just because they're so much BETTER than the current ones Some one might actually want these guys.

Hahaha, it's alright. I was just getting a bit worried after posting a bunch of stuff and having nobody commenting on it.

Rage for the turn...I was definitely considering that. I may go with that.

And yeah, I want to actually make Spawn worth taking this time around, even if this is just a codex for fun and it will never be published.

Your mutations are interesting. I don't have a full opinion on them, as it's taking some effort to wrap my head around them.

That's perfectly fine, take your time. It's not like I'm forcing you to post every day on everything I've done!

I definitely like where you're heading with the Legion ideas.

Thank you. If there's on thing I loved about the Space Marine codex, it was the fact that if the captain took a Bike, then Bikes became troops.

Sadly it makes you think that the Dark Angels codex should've been like that...take a Bike, bikes are troops. Take terminator armor, Terminators are troops...

:edit:

By the way, when I posted this the views were at 888. Yay! : )

Okay, so the FOC is going to be switched around a bit depending on what you take.

In one of the other threads, it mentioned how in the real CSM codex how, you had to take a CSM choice in that slot to use daemons. I.E. you needed to take a Chaos Lord before you took Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change, and you needed to take Chaos Space Marines before you got Daemonettes, etc.

And I liked that idea.

However, I was thinking that if you took a Chaos Lord or a Human Champion of Chaos then those rules would apply, but if you took a Bloodthirster and nothing else then those rules wouldn't apply.

Kind of confusing, I know.

The Word Bearers, however, will not have to abide by these rules. As they use a lot of Daemons.

All Cult Troops will be in the elites slot. So if you want Thousand Sons, you need to take a Chaos Sorceror (with Thousand Sons upgrade).

By the way, I was thinking of representing the power of Thousand Sons sorcerors by giving them a Chaos Familiar, which means that they can cast an extra power per turn.

I will also make 'upgrade' sorcerors, much like Warlocks in fact, for Thousand Sons squads.

If you take a Lord of the World Eaters, then Khorne Berserkers are troops, and all Chaos Space Marine units gain Rage and a Khornate Axe and must take the Mark of Khorne.

Take a Lord of the Death Guard, and Plague Marines are troops, all units must take the Mark of Nurgle, etc.

I made Cult Troops elites to represent how rare and how powerful they are, and also to make the standard Chaos Space Marine more important and more common to renegade armies.

I'm still trying to figure out how to do a good Renegade army.

Let's talk Daemon Weapons, shall we?

After my first admittedably feeble attempt, here's my second take.

Khornate- Power Weapon, d3+1 attacks, +1 combat resolution, rolls of 6 to hit give +1 A.

Tzeentchian- Power Weapon, +1 A, grants psychic power "Imbue Power", Shooting attack of R:Template Str:4 Ap:4

Nurglesque- Poisoned (4+), +1 A, Gives -3 to enemy saves, reduces vehicle AV by 2. Models wounded by this weapon take 1+d2 wounds.

Slaaneshi- Rending, +d3 A, models that suffer an unsaved wound from this model are considered Initiative 0 next turn, meaning that even Initiative 1 models strike before them. May reroll to-wound rolls of 1.

Undivided- Power Weapon, +1 A, +1 Str, may choose to either gain +1 I or an additional attack in close combat.


Okay. There's that.

Now I want to change around the chart a bit.

At the beginning of your turn, you roll a d6 if you have a daemon weapon. On a 1, the daemon rebels. Any other number is considered fine.

If you roll a 1, roll another d6.

On a 1, summon a daemon with stats WS:4 BS:0 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:1 LD:10 SV: --/5+
The daemon then gets the mark that corresponds to the sword. So, a Khornate Daemon would get +1 A, a Slaaneshi Daemon +1 I, etc. An undivided daemon gets no benefits.
The daemon weapon becomes a normal CCW. The daemon then attacks the former bearer of the daemon weapon until either one of them are killed.

On a 2 or 3, Summon a daemon as above.
In CC, if the former bearer of the daemon weapon wins combat, then the daemon joins the side of the former bearer. The daemon weapon becomes a normal CCW.

On a 4-6, the bearer takes a wound saveable only by an invulnerable save. The daemon weapon still keeps its abilities.

Here's some more thoughts of mine, whether you guys agree with them or not.

Each Chaos deity (sans Khorne) will get 3 psychic powers. Malal will get one or 2. I haven't decided yet.

Since Khorne loses out on these rather nice psychic powers, he gets other stuff. One of them is the Bloodslaughterer. Also, his daemons are more powerful, but of course they cost extra. And finally, I'm thinking of making a special weapon entitled the 'widowmaker of Khorne'. Fun name.

That's that.

Now onto Cult troops.

I'm really thinking about making it so that they only come in squad sizes equal to their patron deity's sacred number. I.E. Khorne Berzerkers come in 8, 1K Sons 9, Plague Marines 7, Noise Marines 6.

Speaking of Noise Marines...which kind of happen to be my sort of favorite Cult Troops just because of their weapons. So cool.

Their weapons.

The Sonic Blaster, cool as it is, could use a little sort of change as right now they're practically storm bolters.

So I was thinking,

Sonic Blaster:
Varied Frequency- R24" Str 4 Ap- Assault 2
Single Frequency- R26" Str 6 Ap- Assault 1, Pinning

Blast Master:
Varied Frequency- R26" Str 6 Ap - Assault 2, Pinning
Single Frequency- R48" Str 8 Ap 6 Assault 1, Pinning, Rending, Blast

I'm of the opinion that noise isn't really any armor piercing thing, it's more a *BAM!* you just got hit by this huge wall of sound.

And I think that this does it well. The Blast Master single Frequency was just one thing where I went into a sort of, "dang this is ****ing awesome!", you know? I try not to do that a lot, but in this case I just had to.

And I realize that this makes Noise Marines more anti-horde than anti-meq, and that this really hurts their anti-tank. But then again. You can still get Land Raiders and what not.

Oh yeah! Land Raiders.

They will get a capacity of 12.

And a new Land Raider type. It will be the (I hope that this hasn't been taken yet!) Legion-Class Land Raider. It will have 2 Reaper Autocannons on each side. And maybe some other fun stuff. Haven't decided yet.

Also, Human Champions of Chaos will be able to become Daemon Princes. Don't know why I didn't decide on that in the first place. Daemon Prince will be an 0-1 choice and will be a separate upgrade that doesn't cost a mutation. Don't know why I didn't do that in the first place.

Also, you know how I talked about how there are limits for mutations?

Well, there still are. But for those who like to gamble, I've made it so that you can purchase over the limit. However, there will be a penalty. Like, for every mutation you go over, you have to take a Sanity Check, which is really just a fancy LD check except that models with stubborn and fearless still have to take it, but models with the Mark of Chaos Undivided can still reroll it. You use the model's base LD, but for every mutation you go over, you get a -1 to the Sanity Check. So, one mutation over, you get -1 to the check. Two mutations, -2, three mutations, -3, and so on.

When you fail a sanity check, for units, they get D3-3 to all stats except for LD and their save. Yes, that's right, even WS and BS. If they are reduced to 0 or less wounds, or 0 T, then they are assumed to have gone insane and killed eachother (or even themselves.)

For Independent Characters, going to 0 T or 0 W means that he or she or it has become a Chaos Spawn. Whee!

I'm having a lot of fun with this as you can tell.

Had a suped up Human Champion that became a Chaos Spawn. What a waste of 250 points. Oh yeah, by the way, the limit helps sometimes. If I wanted to I could have like a 400 point Daemon Prince.

Very fun.

I'd like to see Possessed unscrewed and moved to Troops alongside the other Cult Marines.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'd like to see Possessed unscrewed and moved to Troops alongside the other Cult Marines.

Possessed are very interesting.

I've dropped the whole 'random ability' thing. Completely and utterly gone.

They have the benefit of being the only troop choice with the access to Chaotic Attributes (and optional +d3-2 stats to any of these: S, T, W, I, A), and an invulnerable save. Also, they have Essence of the Warp, which allows for them to roll their invulnerable save with their normal save. So in all, they can roll a 6+ invul with a 3+ regular. Gives them about a ~26% chance or so of surviving a hit, about a 1 in 4 chance, as opposed to a 1 in 3 chance.

They also have access to 3 mutations base, as opposed to 2 mutations base for all other troops choices. So they will end up being a bit more expensive (if you choose to take the extra mutations), but they will be much better.

Also was thinking of doing a sort of 'Gunnery Sergeant Harker' upgrade, that is, an upgrade character for the possessed. Belakor, I think his name is. Read about him on the Lexicanum. Seemed like a prime candidate.

Oh yeah, and they are troops.

Also one of their upgrades is a better invulnerable save (Aura of the Warp, a 5+ save) so against a lasgun or a bolter, they will have a ~22% chance of taking a wound. That's now about a 1 in 5 chance. Very useful.

So if you just want an army of crazy dudes with wings and stuff (as opposed to just crazy guys with stuff), they're the go-to-guys.

Don't like it? Please let me know how to improve them! I'm only one person (and quite fallible) so of course there are probably (no scratch that, I'd bet) that there are some better ideas out there.

-Vlad

Vehicle upgrades...now we get into some good stuff. And maybe some bad stuff. I don't know.

Reading some more, I realized that I really wanted to do something for Living Hull.

And it'd go like this:

"The Vehicle is now more organic than it is metal. To represent it, use this upgrade:"

The Vehicle may fire any of its weapons. It fires as if a monstrous creature except that there are no limits for firing weapons.

Here is the chart for converting AV to T, and you use the front av for the entire vehicle's T

AV=10, T=6
AV=11, T=7
AV=12, T=8
AV=13, T=9
AV=14, T=10

So a LandRaider would have T10 on all sides, a Rhino would have T7, a Predator would have T9, etc.

For every point of AV on the front (before this upgrade), add +1 wound to the vehicle, starting at AV 10 gives 1 wound:

AV=10, W=1
AV=11, W=2
AV=12, W=3
AV=13, W=4
AV=14, W=5

A Predator would have 4 wounds, a Rhino would have 2, etc.

Also, the front AV (before the upgrade) gives a save, +1 for every point of AV. The table goes as such:

AV=10, SV=6+
AV=11, SV=5+
AV=12, SV=4+
AV=13, SV=3+
AV=14, SV=2+

There we go.

Also, Living Vehicles' transport capacity (if they had any) is cut in half. So a Living Hull Rhino would have a capacity of 5. A Living Hull Land Raider would have a capacity of 6, or 3 Terminators.

There are some considerable advantages and disadvantages to consider here.

First, vehicles can't be killed in one hit any more unless of course they were AV 10 on the front. This means that lucky shots don't kill any more.

However, Autocannons can hurt what were previously AV 14 vehicles, like Land Raiders.

However, you can fire more weapons on the move. Predators now become a force to be reckoned with. Land Raiders are insane. But it all comes at a cost. You lose a lot of the transport capacity, and again it's easier to wound.

I may also make it so that Ap 1 weapons get +2 Str and do 2 wounds instead of 1 against Living Hull Vehicles.

two suggestions:

read HBMC and his crews attempt at fixing CSM (note: there are only rules for the big four. no IW, AL, etc); http://www.revisitedproject.org/

put this in an article so you can update the things you've changed and get it in a more readable format.

cheers,

kh

kid_happy wrote:two suggestions:

read HBMC and his crews attempt at fixing CSM (note: there are only rules for the big four. no IW, AL, etc); http://www.revisitedproject.org/

I would do this, but then I feel like I'd unintentionally steal ideas. Of course, unless they allowed me to borrow some of them.

put this in an article so you can update the things you've changed and get it in a more readable format.

This.

Is a great idea.I will definitely do this. Thank you!

-Vlad

You can certainly write rules as an homage to ours.

But keep in mind that the rules you see there are a bit on the old side. The Chaos Codex listed at the website hasn't been updated in some time (and needs updated - I found a load of very stupid mistakes in it last time I went over it).

I certainly don't mean for you to steal them but they have done a lot of leg work there and why do a bunch of stuff twice? A rewrite of the codex would be a huge amount of time, not mention you still have to start play testing, etc..

@ HBMC- I still can't figure out why your Flamers are only 20 points a model. A unit of 10 puts out 40 str 6 AP 3 Pinning shots at 18" range (enough to gut MEQ *and* ork hordes). 2 wounds and a 4++ save with the option to force an unit 30" to suffer from night fighting and difficult terrain seems pretty sick for 210 points. I don't think I'd leave a list without 4-6 of said units.

I also notice you guys haven't been working on lately. Does this mean you've been testing 5th?

cheers,

kh