Homeland Security is Watching You!

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**mcfly**

So, someone on facebook mentioned this paper in a note I just read, and so I had to look it up.

Holy crap.

Here's the CBS article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/14/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4944701.shtml

Heres a quote:

The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific
information that domestic rightwing* terrorists are currently planning acts of violence,
but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about
several emergent issues. The economic downturn and the election of the first
African American president present unique drivers for rightwing radicalization and
recruitment.
— (U//LES) Threats from white supremacist and violent antigovernment groups
during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry
out violent acts. Nevertheless, the consequences of a prolonged economic
downturn—including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability
to obtain credit—could create a fertile recruiting environment for rightwing
extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and
government authorities similar to those in the past.
— (U//LES) Rightwing extremists have capitalized on the election of the first
African American president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new
members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and appeal
through propaganda, but they have not yet turned to attack planning.
(U//FOUO) The current economic and political climate has some similarities to the
1990s when rightwing extremism experienced a resurgence fueled largely by an
economic recession, criticism about the outsourcing of jobs, and the perceived threat to
U.S. power and sovereignty by other foreign powers.
— (U//FOUO) During the 1990s, these issues contributed to the growth in the
number of domestic rightwing terrorist and extremist groups and an increase in
violent acts targeting government facilities, law enforcement officers, banks,
and infrastructure sectors.
— (U//FOUO) Growth of these groups subsided in reaction to increased
government scrutiny as a result of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and
disrupted plots, improvements in the economy, and the continued U.S. standing
as the preeminent world power.
(U//FOUO) The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of
military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities
could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists
capable of carrying out violent attacks.
* (U) Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and
adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups),
and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or
rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a
single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.

Scaaaary stuff.

**Trench-Raider**

Scratch a lefty find a fascist.

Just remember when the Right was in power the left was telling us how "disent is patriotic". Now that they control the goverment, disent is domestic terrorism. If leftists didn't have double standards, they would have no standards at all.

Ah well. I'm probably on a watch list already...

TR

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Yes. Well.

Read that, and all I could see is a lot of 'could, might, perhaps, maybe' and very little to actually worry about.

In any Democracy, it's a persons right to disagree with their Government. One could argue the second that 100% of people are happy with their Government, Democracy goes out of the window. Well, in a round about kind of way.

But guess what! Right Wing Nutjobs exist. The always have, and sadly always will. And rarely are they anywhere near the threat to National, or even local secuirty they might like to think they are.

**BloodofOrks**

Never mind that a similar report regarding left wing extremists was published in January.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Leftwing_Extremist_Threat.pdf

You know because apparently DHS hates the right wing so much that they have investigated extremists on both sides of the political spectrum since 9/11 and update the reports annually.

**mcfly**

BloodofOrks wrote:Never mind that a similar report regarding left wing extremists was published in January.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Leftwing_Extremist_Threat.pdf

You know because apparently DHS hates the right wing so much that they have investigated extremists on both sides of the political spectrum since 9/11 and update the reports annually.

Well, the article says that at the bottom. Its still a pretty crazy report though.

**sexiest_hero**

Disent is Building grass roots, gathering peacefully to protest. and pushing for your canidate and issues. It is not stockpiling guns blaming Jews and fearing the color or religion of the prez.

"Rightwing extremists have capitalized on the election of the first
African American president"

"Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and
adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups"

Iow are these disent. I'm all for the right wing tea parties, thats desent. Radio host blapping aboout thingss they know nothing about, is disent. Protesting at abotion clinics is disent. Thats patriotic. Taking up arms agenst your government over the simple fact your side didn't win, because you spent more time calling him a Islamic terrorest, black liberation, cummunist, socialist, Illegal alien, then making an actual case to vote republican. And to top it all off they can't wait the 3 years to vote him out off office, is a damn shame. Democrats sat through the mess of the 2000 elections, 2 wars, Katrina, the economic downturn, the fall from grace of our world image, and Dick Cheney's torture camps. We endured me moblised, we voted, and we won. Thats being American, a vote here can do lots more than a gun. Taking up arms aginst the government is treason. Blowing up things you don't like is terrorism. Now is the perfect time for the right to make thier case, I'd welcome open debate, hell I've agreed with Frazz on a number of issues. But they do the un-american thing plotting and hoping for the U.S's downfall.

And Trench-Raider, I know a vet like you know's disent and violent attacks are two different things.

**halonachos**

America's not a democracy, we're a republic. Sorry, just had to say it.

**halonachos**

Also, I do some pretty inapropriate things in my spare time. I hope big brother isn't watching that.

**Trench-Raider**

And Trench-Raider, I know a vet like you know's disent and violent attacks are two different things.

Of course. I'm against all unlawful acts to promote a political cause if a viable legal alternative exists. That's why I despise the leftist tools who promote "direct action" (aka criminality) and most cases of "civil disobedience" as well. Tying yourself to a logging tree is just a grown up version of a temper tantrum after all.

The REAL violent extremist (of which there are a few, albiet closely monitored in the US since the '60s) are contemptable. Let me make that quite clear. My problem with this report is that it's painting the mainstream views of a sizable number if not a majority of Americans as leading to extremism.

In any event, at least in the US, the lion's share of political motivated violence is commited not by the right but by the left. (suprise, suprise)

TR

**Polonius**

Trench-Raider wrote:
In any event, at least in the US, the lion's share of political motivated violence is commited not by the right but by the left. (suprise, suprise)

TR

I'd argue that the lion's share of political violence is committed by the psychologically troubled. I think once you cross the line from activism to violence, it's probably a 50/50 chance which side grabs you first.

**sexiest_hero**

When pray tell are hate groups and Violent anti government groups mainstream. Republican views are small government and low taxes(as of the past few years). Thier views or not the anti-American rubbish these people drip out of thier mouths. They are Making Political opponets into mortal enemies. They are feeding on something worse than fear, Blind panic. Remember after 9/11 when people were wrapping thier houses in plastic? How about the "who is a cummunist" witch hunt? The horrible terror alert color grid? I'd think the party of brave military, god fearing manly men, wouldn't be so spooked as to run around yelling about the sky falling and the end of America. I'd think they would Man/Woman up and come up with a counter argument that actually is based on facts that the pros and cons can be stated and debated. But no what I get is "Obama gunna take our gunz!" And Glen Beck crying like a baby on tv.

**Trench-Raider**

Polonius wrote:
Trench-Raider wrote:
In any event, at least in the US, the lion's share of political motivated violence is commited not by the right but by the left. (suprise, suprise)

TR

I'd argue that the lion's share of political violence is committed by the psychologically troubled. I think once you cross the line from activism to violence, it's probably a 50/50 chance which side grabs you first.

I'd agree with the first sentence. There is certainly some degree of instability in those who engage in such acts. But I stand by my statement. It wasn't Right wingers who were making fire bombs to use at the Democratic convention but the opposite. It's not Right wing protestors who get violent and attack the police but their counterparts on the left. The eco-terrorists and animal rights extremists who engage in acts of extreme vandalism are certainly not conservative. What do Right wing protests look like for the most part? The peaceful small scale "tea parties" we are seeing pop up of late.

(and before someone pops off about it, I consider the anti-abortion crowd to be more religiously motivated than political in nature. Anti-abortion violence is extremely rare in any case)

Yes, these folks who commit political violence are nuts, but they idea that they are a 50-50 mix of ideology simply does not hold up to examination.

TR

**Trench-Raider**

When pray tell are hate groups and Violent anti government groups mainstream.

I didn't say that. I said that some of the concerns that this report is claiming are motivation new extremists are mainstream.

TR

**efarrer**

Trench-Raider wrote:Scratch a lefty find a fascist.

Just remember when the Right was in power the left was telling us how "disent is patriotic". Now that they control the goverment, disent is domestic terrorism. If leftists didn't have double standards, they would have no standards at all.

Ah well. I'm probably on a watch list already...

TR

Never heard of a government that didn't watch it's citizens. Speaking of the report would have been commissioned by the same government that released the earlier report regarding the lunatic left.

I must also say I enjoy the wonderful attempt to demonize (and really it's a just a wimpy Godwin) the left.

**Polonius**

Trench-Raider wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Trench-Raider wrote:
In any event, at least in the US, the lion's share of political motivated violence is commited not by the right but by the left. (suprise, suprise)

TR

I'd argue that the lion's share of political violence is committed by the psychologically troubled. I think once you cross the line from activism to violence, it's probably a 50/50 chance which side grabs you first.

I'd agree with the first sentence. There is certainly some degree of instability in those who engage in such acts. But I stand by my statement. It wasn't Right wingers who were making fire bombs to use at the Democratic convention but the opposite. It's not Right wing protestors who get violent and attack the police but their counterparts on the left. The eco-terrorists and animal rights extremists who engage in acts of extreme vandalism are certainly not conservative. What do Right wing protests look like for the most part? The peaceful small scale "tea parties" we are seeing pop up of late.

(and before someone pops off about it, I consider the anti-abortion crowd to be more religiously motivated than political in nature. Anti-abortion violence is extremely rare in any case)

Yes, these folks who commit political violence are nuts, but they idea that they are a 50-50 mix of ideology simply does not hold up to examination.

TR

Well, I don't have any stats, and I'm not sure you do either, but I'm guessing you can make the numbers do all kinds of things. Meaning, if you looked at the total number of people that have committed some physical act of violence to further a cause, you might find more leaning left. On the other hand, if you look at the number of people killed in politically motivated violence, the Oklahoma City bombing alone shifts things pretty far to the right side of the spectrum.

I'd also guess that there are a lot of violence that I would consider right wing that you would consider apolitical (abortion related stuff, anti-gay or ethnic hate crimes, lynchings, etc). If you want to include animal rights and environmental violence, then by all rights you should include the other stuff too.

You might say that those groups aren't part of anything you consider conservative or right wing, but by that logic the animal rights or environmentalist extremists don't really represent the left wing.

**Trench-Raider**

Polnius:

On the other hand, if you look at the number of people killed in politically motivated violence, the Oklahoma City bombing alone shifts things pretty far to the right side of the spectrum.

You do realise that a strong case could be made that McVey was more of an anarchist than a real Right Winger, right? But yes, if you include the OKC bombing the death toll argument is hard to counter.

As for numbers....

abortion related stuff

As stated above, actually quite rare.

anti-gay

Rare in the real world...

ethnic hate crimes

You mean the crimes that are 90% commited by minorities against Whites? Was the assault commited by the "Jena 6" a Right wing thing?

lynchings

You mean that phenomenon that is almost unknown since the 60s?

Come on, man. You can do better than that...

You might say that those groups aren't part of anything you consider conservative or right wing, but by that logic the animal rights or environmentalist extremists don't really represent the left wing.

Eh.
When you can show me mainstream Conservatives supporting both morally and via donations groups like the Klan in the same manner in which mainstream leftists support or at least turn a blind eye to eco-terrorists and the like, you might have a valid comparison.

But let's just get back to the things we agree on here: political violence of any stripe is bad and those who commit such acts are wrong and very offten unstable.

TR

**Trench-Raider**

Oops...double post.

**Polonius**

Trench-Raider wrote:Polnius:

On the other hand, if you look at the number of people killed in politically motivated violence, the Oklahoma City bombing alone shifts things pretty far to the right side of the spectrum.

You do realise that a strong case could be made that McVey was more of an anarchist than a real Right Winger, right? But yes, if you include the OKC bombing the death toll argument is hard to counter.

If he's an anarchist, than how are ecoterrorists or anti-globalization people not anarchists as well?

As for numbers....

abortion related stuff

As stated above, actually quite rare.

Compared to ecoterrorism? Compared to what, I guess is my question.

anti-gay

Rare in the real world...

Probably, but again, how common are left wing political violent acts?

**Trench-Raider**

I've only got a few moments before bed. Work comes awful early in the AM and I have a large "chain" incoming tommorrow. So I'll just address a couple of point tonight.

I'm going to need some sort of cite or something on this tidbit. You're saying that 90% of all hate crime is committed against whites? Do you have any way to support that?

Department of Justice crime statistics, backed up by a number of victim self reporting studies show that minorities commit over 90% of all inter-racial crimes. Moreover a DOJ report released last year that dealt specificly with crimes in which a racial movitation could be determined also showed this to be the case. In reality the numbers are probably even more skewed than these reports would indicate as the DOJ usually reports Hispanics as "White".
But that's a whole other subject...

Well, the Klan is a bad comparison, because it's essentially dead.

True enough. Despite what the SPLC likes to pretend to solicit funding, the Klan is more or less a harmless crank organization these days. it's been so completely infiltrated by the FBI that there has not been a documented case of Klan sponsored terrorism since the the early '70s.
A better statement would be that while we on the Right tend to distance ourselves from our kooks, leftists will often embrace theirs. Do we hear any real outrage from the left when these protests turn violent?

I do have a question: do you think those prone to violence are more likely to join lefty causes, or do you think that it's the causes themselves that trigger the violence? Meaning, if you genuinely think that left wing politcal violence is more common, what exactly do you mean by that, and why do you think that is?

Yes I do believe that in recent decades at the very least leftist political violence is more common than the reverse. Why is this the case? That's a good question. At least part of it must be the well known fact that young people tend toward the left side of the political spectrum. When you are some young naive college kid with delusions of making some grand statement combined with the lack of real world experience to realise that a criminal record can really mess up your life the posibility of making a stupid mistake is higher than it would be in other cases. But yes, the leftist world view and mindset does certainly come into play. It's not the Right that embraces the "it's ok to disregard any law you feel strongly enough about" mindset. So I think (and this is just my opinion here) that the higher instances of leftist political violence is caused by the greater number of naive, impulsive kids on the left combined with a general distain for rules and authority that many on the far left have.

G'night.

TR

**BloodofOrks**

Want to know how badly the right has collapsed?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21243.html

Read some of the comments regarding this story. There are people openly calling Obama a Nazi amongst other things.

Seriously, these reports came out under Bush as well. Also, TR how is the left both fascist and anarchistic? Those ideas are pretty strongly at odds with one another. Or are you just resorting to petty name calling?

**warpcrafter**

I'm a hardcore apathetic anarchist. I don't really care who's in power, because I think it's all gonna go to s**t regardless. If they watch me, all they're gonna get is trauma, because watching a 300 lb guy sit in his tighty whities posting on Dakka and downloading naughty pictures is surely enough to make even the most dedicated spook want to claw their eyes out.

**efarrer**

warpcrafter wrote:I'm a hardcore apathetic anarchist. I don't really care who's in power, because I think it's all gonna go to s**t regardless. If they watch me, all they're gonna get is trauma, because watching a 300 lb guy sit in his tighty whities posting on Dakka and downloading naughty pictures is surely enough to make even the most dedicated spook want to claw their eyes out.

About that....

we'd really appreciate it if you'd put your shirt back on.

That is all.

Thank You.

**warpcrafter**

There's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

**dogma**

Trench-Raider wrote:It's not the Right that embraces the "it's ok to disregard any law you feel strongly enough about" mindset.

So you're willing to roll anarchists into the left while ignoring the fact that the right also has similar tendencies? You've never heard of secessionist parties, militia advocates, or even libertarians?

Trench-Raider wrote:
So I think (and this is just my opinion here) that the higher instances of leftist political violence is caused by the greater number of naive, impulsive kids on the left combined with a general distain for rules and authority that many on the far left have.

First of all, there isn't a particularly strong tendency amongst people under 30 to lean to the left.

Second, all people under 30 tend to have a greater disregard for rules and regulations. Its a matter of general socialization, not political affiliation.

Third, the majority of violence in America has not been overtly motivated by politics. In general, our issues with extremism tend to deal with a general rejection of society rather than any specific political agenda. Hence the veracity of argumentation which classifies someone like McVeigh as either a member of the right or the left; meaning that he is best referred to as a generic anarchist.

**Kilkrazy**

"A man... shall never attempt to win over a fanatic by strength of reasoning."

Letters on England, Voltaire, 1733.

**reds8n**

Trench-Raider wrote:It's not the Right that embraces the "it's ok to disregard any law you feel strongly enough about" mindset.

Wasn't that Nixon's entire personal defense ?

**Frazzled**

You're only paranoid if you're wrong

Here's a song I live by
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu1RP34FLXU

**Frazzled**

Trench-Raider wrote: Tying yourself to a logging tree is just a grown up version of a temper tantrum after all.

TR

I disagree. Its not grown up at all.

Yes, there's mucho grub grub on the more right wing forums. Having said that, I've gotten into several furballs with people espousing "blah blah take my guns I'll shoot em up blah blah I'm a patriot." No Grant was a patriot. Get into a gunfight with the government and you're ventilated.

As stated, there's nothing wrong with keeping an eye on all dissident groups. Dissent on domestic shores is part of the political process and absolutely required for a functioning republic. Its the nuts on both sides that go beyond that that need to get hammered.

Having said that Ayers is still breathing. Why is that?

dogma wrote:
Trench-Raider wrote:It's not the Right that embraces the "it's ok to disregard any law you feel strongly enough about" mindset.

So you're willing to roll anarchists into the left while ignoring the fact that the right also has similar tendencies? You've never heard of secessionist parties, militia advocates, or even libertarians?

Wo WO WO

Don't lump libertarians into that mix. We just don't want to be

ed with. Just because its a small party doesn't make it a terrorist organization. Its larger than most European parties...

**sexiest_hero**

Ayers is still living due to the simple fact that his group was inept, and pretty much the only thing they harmed were one of thier own, and the left was full of radicals that were actually dangerous at the time. As for the hate crimes thing it boils doen to iff the crimewas done as a simple crime, or a target to stike fear, as in a pick up truck dragging vs a gas staition hold up. With that said, they said that left extremest will more likely use cyber terrorism. Our nut jobs include the meat is murder people, the "I'll needlessly attack your religion even if you are on my side" people. Jessie"I'll cut off your nuts" Jackson, and a host of others.The difference is, IMHO, that the lefts extreme isn't in control of the party.

**Frazzled**

Not correct. Ayers was initially charged with murder in his part in bombings that killed police officers. The police unions of the murdered police officers recently came out and directly accused him of murder. The Weathermen were terrorists and should have been executed to a man/woman. Everything else is hypocrisy.

You're also forgetting the New Black Panthers, the ecoterrorists who commit arson, and the guys who put spikes in trees that can maim or kill loggers.
You're argument that the extreme left is not in control of the Democratic Party is...interesting in light of Huffington/DailyKos. I am not singling out the Democratic Aprty though, the hardliners control both major political parties in the US, as in most locales. Thats human nature.