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halonachos wrote:Yes they are, they believe that Obama is going against what America stands for and that the government in all is not what it should be.

And ? So what ? What does America stand for ? I'd imagine you'd get around 6 billion or so answers on a global poll and 300 millionish answers inside the country itself.

They think that we should restructure it so it would be more like the government the founding fathers wanted.

You know, I didn't like Bush too much but I think he was better than Obama so far.

Which was what ? There's no 100% agreement over things like what they meant over guns, let alone how they would have wanted a post industrial microchip and internet country with nuclear weapons and a massive infrastructure that is tied into a global market.

Think that's asking a little too much of the founding fathers really.

"better than Obama so far". Well seeing as you're claiming it's currently Clinton's tax policies that are fething everything up I don;t really see how you can say that. You might feel like Bush was.. I dunno..more amiable perhaps ? Used less long words so you felt comfortable when he spoke ? Which is fair enough, because that's how you feel. But writing off any president/ruler, be it Obama or McCain after 3 months is pointless.

Regardless what Fox tell you.

Well, seeing as though Obama believes that there are 57 states, I prefer Bush.

The basic fact is that the founding fathers wanted a country that was independent of others and one that wouldn't quell free speech. Did you know that a director made an anti-Hillary Clinton movie and it got banned?

By better than Obama so far, I mean that he didn't pussy-foot around when over 10,000 americans died due to terrorist attacks.


BTW, reds8n why do you think it is wrong that america went to Iraq but that it shouldfix the problems in africa. You know, the problems europe caused. American troops ended genocide in Iraq and overthrew a dictator, what has europe initiated that has ever done so much good? I don't want a leader like Spain's. Spain had troops in Iraq and Afghanistan until a terrorist blew up one of their subways. Spain gave up, and I'm afraid Obama will do the same.

sexiest_hero wrote:I didn't say the Civil war was about slavery, Licons assassination was directly due with doing things people didn't want. That was the point i was getting at.

The goal of our representives is to do what's best for the nation, not whats popular at the moment. Presidents Need to make the hard, sometimes un-popular choices (I.E Intergrating southern schools using the national guard) We vote for people we think will make the best choices in our best interests and follow the Ideals of the party. We don't vote for a puppet to do whatever is popular. What happens if two groups want the same thing, we hold an election, more people want it one way, it wins, they do things they feel is best.

Bush did plenty of unpopular things, like torture and the patriot act, that he felt was needed, Like the war in Iraq, or the sub-par treatment of our armed forces. Sometimes in big wars drafts are needed, sometimes food must be rationed, Unpoplular laws made and enforced.

Think about if we all only did what was popular.

I don't think that you think the CW was just about slavery (I know you know that I know that---we all know that...). The point I was trying to spit out is that state freedoms has been in a steady decline for many, many years (or too powerful in the case of CA, etc...). There is a difference between what is popular and what is right. School segragation is right, it wasn't popular. Draft was popular in WW2, not so much in Vietnam. Time affects needs and attitudes.

Bush tortured people? I wonder what his favorite technique was? Must be hard to be a figurehead and still have time to waterboard terrorists. Patriot Act was needed. If the government had such precautions in place prior to 9-11 then it might not have happened, but that is hindsight (a dangerous thing in its own right).

I know presidents have to do unpopular things, but they need to be right. What would have happened if the govt hadn't bailed out the auto industry? Would the companies have folded, or would they have filed for bankruptcy and been forced to restructure and in the long run be better for it We don't know because we can't see altnernate futures. If they ultimately fail then it was an unpopular decision and it was wrong. Two fail birds with one stone.

Lincoln was assassinated, but lincoln stood for more freedom than Booth. Lincoln may have suspended right to a fair trial and drafted but he extended the chance of success to a lot of people and decided that slaves were people too and needed the rights.

halonachos wrote:Well, seeing as though Obama believes that there are 57 states, I prefer Bush.

It's lucky no one on this board made ref to there being 50 states then !

Or the last president made a speech that said both terrorists and his Govt were working on new ways to hurt America. Oh... wait...

By better than Obama so far, I mean that he didn't pussy-foot around when over 10,000 americans died due to terrorist attacks.

When did 10,000 Americans die from terrorist attacks during Bush's era ? And when did 10,000 Americans die from a terrorist attack during Obama's "reich" then ? I'm sure that would have been in the news.

BTW, reds8n why do you think it is wrong that america went to Iraq but that it should fix the problems in africa. You know, the problems europe caused. American troops ended genocide in Iraq and overthrew a dictator, what has europe initiated that has ever done so much good? I don't want a leader like Spain's. Spain had troops in Iraq and Afghanistan until a terrorist blew up one of their subways. Spain gave up, and I'm afraid Obama will do the same.

I don't want a leader like Spain's either. I agree that as we're there we need to do our damndest to "fix" things as best we can.

I think Europe is largely responsible for the troubles in Africa, and so is America, but from a historical perspective Europe is more culpable. I don't think it would be easy to do so at all, but in a better world we would take responsibility for our nations actions. OR at the very least stop selling them guns, abusing our economic superiority to keep them downtrodden an generally pissing all over the continent to keep out own countries content and waiting for their next fix of crap to keep us entertained.

I think it was wrong for America AND the other countries--including Britain ( I really dig the way you try and make all my arguments out to be some vast anti septic rant and miss all the other points. Or even my frequent use of the word "we"-- to be in Iraq as : They didn't have any WMDs and never did-- you remember the ENTIRE justification for us being there. Apparently.

Plus Irag had nothing to do with funding or training for/of Al Queda-- you know, the actual bad guys who we're after-- so the whole affair really did nothing.

Sure the USA ended genocide in Iraq ? What genocide is this ? The one against the Kurds that we didn't care about and never mentioned until there were no WMDs ?

Overthrew a dictator ? As opposed to the myriad of other countries that have them, like Saudi Arabia ? Where the actual hi jackers cam from ? Oh hang on.. we sell them weapons and planes and tanks. They're our dictators. They fact they own 5% of American and vast chunks of Europe had nothing to do with it I'm sure.

Don't try and make out that the Iraq was was or is some vast and noble adventure. The people there fighting, sure they're fething brave and I'd prefer it for them to all come home safe and in one piece. As I'd like the innocent Iraqi citizens to stop being blown up, shot and executed.

What has Europe initiated ? That "done so much good"...? WW I ? WW II ? Kosovo ? The formation of the first modern parliamentary governments ? ... Cheese ? Opera ? Decent wine ? The printing press ? Actual football ?

I wouldn't bother trying. Halonochos lives in a world of his own devising.

By better than Obama so far, I mean that he didn't pussy-foot around when over 10,000 americans died due to terrorist attacks.

Case in point.

Guess Obama isn't the only one that gets numbers wrong once in a while...........

dietrich wrote:Guess Obama isn't the only one that gets numbers wrong once in a while...........

ba-dump -tish

But... but.. we can save him ! I's all about education

in case.

I don't call WW1 or WW2 good things. And according to you, the only things europe has initiated are trivial or wars.
I believe that we should attack Iran and Saudi Arabia, but once we're done with Iraq. The roman empire spread their forces too thin and look at what happened.

10,000 was a rough(and exaggerated) number for the 9/11 attacks. You know the day planes crashed into some skyscrapers and the pentagon and a field in pennsylvania that could've been heading towards the white house.


Personally, I wouldn't mind a desert of glass. However, there are too many good people over there that would die because of this and I don't want to see that. As to the world of my own devising, I wish. Its not as scary as this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

Excluding the 19 hijackers, 2,974 people died in the attacks.[3][4] The overwhelming majority of casualties were civilians, including nationals of over 90 different countries. In addition, the death of at least one person from lung disease was ruled by a medical examiner to be a result of exposure to dust from the World Trade Center's collapse.[5]

10,000 was a rough(and exaggerated) number for the 9/11 attacks. You know the day planes crashed into some skyscrapers and the pentagon and a field in pennsylvania that could've been heading towards the white house.

I'm not sure if I'll be penalized for saying this but... Well you're not very smart.

halonachos wrote:I don't call WW1 or WW2 good things.

And I and most people don't call the war in Iraq a good thing either. You'll notice though they all resulted in regime change which is, according to you, a "good thing".

And that's ignoring the plethora of useful stuff invented during the wars.

You do realise I was essentially just giving you back your own argument here yes ? Oh.

And according to you, the only things europe has initiated are trivial or wars.

Yes. That's right. NOTHING of use has come from Europe. Ever.

I do apologise for not listing the entirety of European history for you. Thing is... it's quite large. It's goes back a bit.

What's worse is that a lot of it isn't even in English ! The bastards ! How dare they !

But if you really don't think that the Enlightenment, printing press, Latin, television etc etc are of note then who am I to argue !

And your example of all the great things America has done was....the invasion of Iraq...? Really ? I know you don't have a lot of history, hell we have stains older than your nation, but I'm pretty certain there might be a few other events that might generally be viewed as better.

Season 2 of Arrested Development or those crazy rap stars with their trousers down near their knees ! Or that cheese you get in a can ! Great stuff.

I believe that we should attack Iran and Saudi Arabia, but once we're done with Iraq. The roman empire spread their forces too thin and look at what happened.

The collpase of the Roman Empire was a bit more complicated than running out of troops in a game of Risk.

Wait... that was in Europe ! TRick question.. I'm onto you.

10,000 was a rough(and exaggerated) number for the 9/11 attacks. You know the day planes crashed into some skyscrapers and the pentagon and a field in pennsylvania that could've been heading towards the white house.

Which the president wasn't in.

But yes, you pulled a number ou the air that was off by about 8,000 or so. Obama made an off the cuff remark and was less than 10 out. Let's not worry about that then.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a desert of glass. However, there are too many good people over there that would die because of this and I don't want to see that. As to the world of my own devising, I wish. Its not as scary as this one.

I assure you it sounds terrifying.

2,974 rounds up to 3,000. So un exaggerated, I should have said 3,000. I was trying to make a point so of course I exaggerated, easily boosting the numbers to the 10,000 I wanted it to be.

Wikipedia said that only 2,974 people died, hmm. I should make an account and change that you know.

So WW2 is responsible for the internet and the highway system and the autobahn. Its also responsible for nerve gas, biological warfare, nuclear energy(that stuffs a doozy), the jewish stereotype, the loss of generations, and some other very good things.

With the Iraq war, we only removed a dictator. WW2 wasn't just about regime change mind you. America didn't need to enter the european theater mind you. Ask me and I can explain my logic for that. Laughs from shuma will follow I presume if shuma is up for it.

halonachos wrote:So WW2 is responsible for the internet and the highway system and the autobahn. Its also responsible for nerve gas, biological warfare, nuclear energy(that stuffs a doozy), the jewish stereotype, the loss of generations, and some other very good things.

No. Many of those things existed much earlier. The Jews have been unpopular for quite some time.

With the Iraq war, we only removed a dictator. WW2 wasn't just about regime change mind you. America didn't need to enter the european theater mind you. Ask me and I can explain my logic for that. Laughs from shuma will follow I presume if shuma is up for it.

I agree WWII wasn't just about regime change. NEither was the Iraq war. IF you remember it was NEVER about that. Good dodge.

Define "need"... oh go on.

I would appreciate it if you could at least acknowledge when your arguments are shown to be somewhat insubstantial to non existent.

Wikipedia said that only 2,974 people died, hmm. I should make an account and change that you know.

And it would get changed back and your account would be banned because thats a well documented official number that resulted from hundreds of professionals counting and dozens of reviews.

Seriously, you have no point. You're a moron.

halonachos wrote:I believe that we should attack Iran and Saudi Arabia, but once we're done with Iraq.

And in this thread, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/236573.page#671412 ,you state:

halonachos wrote:I wish I was as strong as these young women and men who serve, I couldn't do what they do.

Nice to see that you're willing to put your money when your mouth is. Or your arse in a foxhole in Tehran, whichever the case may be.

Seriously, just stop. You're not doing anything but digging your hole deeper and deeper.

I am willing to serve actually. My plan is to become a field surgeon or barring that, working in a military hospital to patch these people up. Thank you for giving me an excuse to show everyone my dreams dietrich.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Wikipedia said that only 2,974 people died, hmm. I should make an account and change that you know.

And it would get changed back and your account would be banned because thats a well documented official number that resulted from hundreds of professionals counting and dozens of reviews.

Seriously, you have no point. You're a moron.

I believe he was being more than a little sarcastic. The moron ball is back in your court.

Can I play moron ball too, or is it too late?

You can't tell sarcasm on the internet. And we all forget it sometimes. But, he defended his 10,000 figure, so I don't think he was being sarcastic.

American's don't bow to figures.


..is that right ?

barlio wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Wikipedia said that only 2,974 people died, hmm. I should make an account and change that you know.

And it would get changed back and your account would be banned because thats a well documented official number that resulted from hundreds of professionals counting and dozens of reviews.

Seriously, you have no point. You're a moron.

I believe he was being more than a little sarcastic. The moron ball is back in your court.

The thing is I really don't think he was being sarcastic. If he was being sarcastic there then he must have been in every other point he's made over the last couple of days.

The guys got a world in his head that has nothing to do with the real one. And he thinks it's what we should all believe in.

Europe has initiated nothing that wasn't a War, or Trivial.

You're so right! USA - Trivial. Democracy - Trivial. Television - Trivial. Telephone - Trivial. THE FREAKING INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION - Trivial. Railways - Trivial. Modern Profressional Armies - Trivial.

I think we can all agree the world would clearly be a better place if Europe just hadn't of bothered.

If the above are so trivial, kindly break your PC (or Mac, whichever you are using) eat your Internet Connection, throw your Telly out the window, melt down all your communication devices more advanced than two cups on a string (though that would be ours as well. Better burn them whilst you're at it) and retreat to your cave.

Or you could just admit you're a gobshite who only shuts up through necessity when it's time to take a poop.

While its up to some debate it's generally credited that america invented the telephone. Early european research work helped but never really went anywhere until the Bell deal.

Also we invented the internet! Without us 4chan wouldn't exist.

Alexander Graham Bell.

Scotsman. Born in Scotland. Scotland is part of Europe. Telephone ergo Scottish invention, thus European innovation.

And without our phone or tellybox, how could your Internet exist? Thats a bit like inventing a new recipe. Sure, it's new, but you used pre-existing ingredients

Bell was in America though wasn't he? Started an American company?

AMERICA!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Graham_Bell

REad it and weep Yankee Dog! IN YOUR FACE!

It says he invented it in America.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Alexander Graham Bell.

Actually I think the currebt accepted theory is that he pretty much stole the idea whilst working in the patent office. He had been working on such a device but didn't make the final leap of inspiration.


linky

Of course if we Europeans hadn't,apparently, invented words then technically all he would have invented was the worlds first form of electronic sexual harassment.

*ring ring*

*sound of breathing*

*sound of breathing*

Good times.

Seems like you guys got serious talking here.
I got one word for you guys.
Turtlepie.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You're so right! USA - Trivial. Democracy - Trivial. Television - Trivial. Telephone - Trivial. THE FREAKING INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION - Trivial. Railways - Trivial. Modern Profressional Armies - Trivial.

I think we can all agree the world would clearly be a better place if Europe just hadn't of bothered.

None of those things are trivial, but you are correct, the world would be a better place without most of them. The sheer amount of pollution put out during and after the industrail revolution has made drinking water a serious hazard in many places. If there were no tv fewer people would sit inside while its beautiful outside. Telephone very useful not trivial. Democracy very useful, but the ease with which it is corrupted makes it almost pointless. Railways useful, but again pollution. Modern professional armies, define modern, because professional armies are older than the romans. And if the USA didnt exist, then hundreds of millions of native americans wouldn't have been killed, millions of africans wouldnt have been sold into slavery, and Hitler would have won WW2, assuming that germany didn't win WW1, in which case there would have been no WW2.