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I think perhaps if Europe had never existed the least of our concerns would whether Hitler won WW II.

It would of course be where the fething French would all be living.

This. This right here is a thread.

iamthecougar wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You're so right! USA - Trivial. Democracy - Trivial. Television - Trivial. Telephone - Trivial. THE FREAKING INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION - Trivial. Railways - Trivial. Modern Profressional Armies - Trivial.

I think we can all agree the world would clearly be a better place if Europe just hadn't of bothered.

None of those things are trivial, but you are correct, the world would be a better place without most of them. The sheer amount of pollution put out during and after the industrail revolution has made drinking water a serious hazard in many places. If there were no tv fewer people would sit inside while its beautiful outside. Telephone very useful not trivial. Democracy very useful, but the ease with which it is corrupted makes it almost pointless. Railways useful, but again pollution. Modern professional armies, define modern, because professional armies are older than the romans. And if the USA didnt exist, then hundreds of millions of native americans wouldn't have been killed, millions of africans wouldnt have been sold into slavery, and Hitler would have won WW2, assuming that germany didn't win WW1, in which case there would have been no WW2.

Uhm, you know most slaves didn't come to North America, let alone they were being brought to the west before there was even a United States. And who brought those slaves across in the triangle trade? I believe they were European. Also, at best estimates there were never "hundreds of millions" of Native Americans in North America. A large majority were killed by disease brought ahead of the explorers so i don't think we can really blame that on the United States. This is of course ignoring that, especially during that time period, they were Europeans, so really it would Europe to be looked at. Your grasp of the realities of history seems tenuous at best, thus I don't really put much weight into your arguments.

Europe has done some messed up stuff and some awesome stuff. The United States has done some messed up stuff and some awesome stuff.

Isn't separating European and American accomplishments, achievements, influences and mistakes an inherently impossible task? The sheer overlap with shared cultures, languages, massive immigration and aside from a relatively brief period peace between the US and it's major trading partners in Europe means that most things are probably a joint product.

The US is pretty clearly part of a continuous trend of western civilization, despite being on a new continent.

@Ahtman
From what I've been told, when Columbus arrived in North America their were upwards of one hundred million people already living here.

BloodofOrks wrote:@Ahtman
From what I've been told, when Columbus arrived in North America their were upwards of one hundred million people already living here.

You've been told some hideous lies. It was populated, but 100 mil at that time would have made it one of the more populous continents on the planet, and I dont think they had cities.

ShumaGorath wrote:

BloodofOrks wrote:@Ahtman
From what I've been told, when Columbus arrived in North America their were upwards of one hundred million people already living here.

You've been told some hideous lies. It was populated, but 100 mil at that time would have made it one of the more populous continents on the planet, and I dont think they had cities.

I did a little research and found that the number is highly disputed with estimates ranging from six million to one hundred forty million. Many groups of Native Americans had cities at many points in their history however a lot of large settlements were abandoned for various reasons across the centuries. I don't know about North America at the time, but their were many thriving cities in South America when Columbus arrived.

BloodofOrks wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

BloodofOrks wrote:@Ahtman
From what I've been told, when Columbus arrived in North America their were upwards of one hundred million people already living here.

You've been told some hideous lies. It was populated, but 100 mil at that time would have made it one of the more populous continents on the planet, and I dont think they had cities.

I did a little research and found that the number is highly disputed with estimates ranging from six million to one hundred forty million. Many groups of Native Americans had cities at many points in their history however a lot of large settlements were abandoned for various reasons across the centuries. I don't know about North America at the time, but their were many thriving cities in South America when Columbus arrived.

I wasn't saying there was very few, just not "hundreds of millions". Indeed there were cities, though obliviously not of concrete and steel. Generally not on the level of some of the South American cultures, but there were some large groupings. Part of the reason we don't have very good estimates is because of the death from disease and bacteria that preceded the arrivals wiped out areas.

@Ahtman
Yeah that's pretty much right. I suppose what I was getting at was that not a few were also deliberately killed. It's a point I feel needs to be pressed because I've come across a lot of people who either are oblivious to the whole series of awful events or firmly deny that white people had anything to do with what happened to Native Americans populations.

Of course it isn't white peoples fault. Did you know that almost all Americans have some Native American ancestry? Just ask them, apparently there great grandma was an Indian princess (that is the most common story anyway).

Well, most people have roots from sub-saharan africa also. Technically we're all from africa.

Ah, but my explanation for my point seemed rather silly, did it not? I wasn't serious about 10,000 people dying and my point about wikipedia is that I can log on at any time and chnge the deathtoll. If my account gets locked I can always make a new one so I discount most of what wikipedia says.

The internet and modern computers were developed in america. Europe is making an "Internet 2" but the US war department made the original internet and last time I checked, Bill Gates made the modern PC.

Yes, I do have my own little world. Its a world of corruption, evil, hypocrisy, and cookies I call it the human psyche.

Modquisition on.

This thread is being closed due to personal attacks.