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OK, we all know that store space is limited, designers' time is limited and players budgets are limited so GW can only put out so many factions.

The two that are missing from the shelves that get the most cries are Lost and the Damned (aka Chaos Cultists or mutants) and Dark Eldar.

Both are armies that are pretty easy to do now either counts as rules for L&D or using the 10+ year old codex for DE.

Both would need the line of models completely done from scratch.

Both would need the rules rewritten from scratch.

Both are part of the fluff.

Both fit the need for an evil army that are not MEqs

If you had to pick one, which would it be?

LATD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skrew DE.

Dark Eldar. Lots and lots of potential as yet unrealised, and probably has a bigger player base than LatD.

Though I'd like to see as many armies released and supported as possible!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Dark Eldar. Lots and lots of potential as yet unrealised, and probably has a bigger player base than LatD.

They're elfs. With spikes. In space.

What potential did I miss?

More spikes?

Different spikes?

Spikes with spikes!

Oh, then they'd be Chaos.

Which is LatD.

Which is what I voted for.

Spikes with skulls, obviously.

I'm a Dark Eldar player, and I'd rather see LaTD. They're more iconic than DE.

And with DE, you have a choice, keep with the dark, anti-slannesh bdsm evil pirate vibe, or go 'chaos eldar' who actually worship them (which I think is the direction most people would prefer).

Either way, the incredible flexibility in modeling and sheer creativity required for LaTD makes it a winner in my book.

Heck, GW could generate lots of sales by simply doing a WD army list for LaTD. Unfortunately, they wouldn't be able to track purchases made for it, so obviously its not a money-maker.

I went with Dark Eldar. Simply put I've fought Dark Eldar in the last couple of years. I haven't seen anyone play the Lost and the Damned.

The Lost and the Damned don't really have any more potential than Dark Eldar, since they're pretty much just human renegades and those born on planets in the Warp. They do have a lot more modeling possibilities, I do admit, and with Forgeworld's Vraks stuff you have a lot of ready done models.

Which is the other point...The Siege of Vraks army list is similar enough to work for a while as the Lost and the Damned and more modern than the Dark Eldar by a mile. True, some places won't let you play with Forgeworld books and such, which is annoying, but the option is there.

DE would be a better army IMO. I'd like to see one of my mates pick that up and try to out-CC my eldar force!

In all honesty, DE really need a redo. The models are IMO, absolutely horrible. Look at the Eldar stuff from the same era and it's beautiful, which is one of the reasons GW are still issuing lots of it

(grumble grumble, give me plastic warlocks etc)

Yeah, DE.

Kyoto: It is obvious what GW will do. They will re-release the Dark Eldar as Dark Spiky Space Elf Legion of Spaze Marienz and the Lost and the Damned will be re-released as the Zombie Guard Legion of the Evil Spaze Marienz.

They will both be contained in the same army book and be REVILED to be the 2 missing Legions.

keezus wrote:Kyoto: It is obvious what GW will do. They will re-release the Dark Eldar as Dark Spiky Space Elf Legion of Spaze Marienz and the Lost and the Damned will be re-released as the Zombie Guard Legion of the Evil Spaze Marienz.

They will both be contained in the same army book and be REVILED to be the 2 missing Legions.

I think you're too cynical. GW only has 994 chapters left before they run out of Spase Marinezzz (hurr!) so I think odds of a non-MEq codex are looking really good for '10.


2110 that is.

Lost & The Damned represent the most commonly fought enemy in the fluff except maybe Orks.

Dark Eldar represent the denizens of a single planet in the webway who go on raids and do not fight wars.

Lost & The Damned without question.

Full Disclosure Department - I have a LatD army, so this is coming from an LatD player.

[begin rant] I think the Dark Eldar along with all the dark elf varients in all of fantasy/scifi is one big cop out. Their just as badass as regular elves but their dark. It has never sat right with me since Drizzt. They are all elves whether or not they are in BDSM is a matter of choice that shouldn't be in a seperate codex. With the DE I've seen you could literally put them and LatD in the same book seeing as they are no more than Chaos Elves. [/end rant]


Sorry about that. Just hit a nerve with lazy race design. I personally think an all inclusive book on the traitor legions, chaos cultist, lost and damned, etc... would be best.

I vote for LatD, but I'd be quite happy if their 'model range' consisted of a couple bitz packs, and maybe a few special choices. Keep them as a modeler's army.

DE could almost be the same way, too. I've never liked the open-topped Return of the Jedi raiders... Maybe make them more dependent on 'corrupted' Eldar equipment instead?

I'd say make LatD rules and maybe one box set for generic mutant and and traitor conversions.

Then go to work on the Dark Eldar.

Both?

It is true that LatD are the primary opponent in the fluff.

They could do "Inquisition & LatD" in the same book.

LatD for me! HBMC is right they are the most common adversary of the Imperium in the fluff.

I've said multiple times that if I was rewriting 40k and didn't have to deal with past edition's baggage I'd make LatD the 'default' Chaos, with CSM as the more extreme variant.

it'd be difficult now with the slow Codex pace as the CSM players would get annoyed, though.

LATD, Dark Eldar can continue their party with the squats forever, may they be smitten from the game and give my regards to Oblivion!

Are LATD the guys in skeleton power armor?

The Dark Eldar do what they do because they would be instantly destroyed if they decided to worship chaos. (Weenies need not apply) On the other hand, the Lost and the Damned are a bit of a quandary because proper mutants are scratch-built from a hodgepodge of different GW kits. My mutants come from various Dark Eldar, Catachan Guard, Genestealers and Gorkamorka Orks. The impact of purchases made for a Lost and the Damned army would be impossible to track, and so they would not know whether or not the Codex is boosting sales. That being said, Damn right they should make an official Lost and the Damned army list.

LunaHound wrote:Are LATD the guys in skeleton power armor?

That's the Legion of the Damned.

The Lost and the Damned are the mutants and traitors who follow Chaos.

Funny it seems all the posters want L&D while the votes are still trending towards DE.

Anyway the BIG problem with the DE is they are another PURE EVIL army.

Oh they torture and enslave!

Unlike CSM who just torture, or Orks who just enslave. And they're better torturers than CSMs. Well that makes them different doesn't it?

While L&D can be anything from misguided but well-intentioned rebels to organized chaos zealots to disorderly crazed rabble.

Both. This is from neither a LaTD or DE player (though I would LOVE to work up some Damned of my own).

It would cost GW nearly nothing to do a list up, (there are dozens around the web already, some that are not that bad) put "Trial" on the top of it, and let the community playtest as a pdf/dwarf article. While it was up, the community (us addicts) would buy the hell out of a lot of different kits to make our Damned. Raising sales overall, even if it is only, say, $200k. And it would garner good will with the Community as we are a "part" of making the game that we play. Update it with data generated from us (let us break the lists so it can be fixed and balanced, collectively we do a better job of it then them) and in a year or so put out a book for us, or keep it as a free PDF. The are not giving anything away, as we still have to buy models to make the army. But the main thing, is there is basically ZERO production costs of the list (other then printing and such if they did). And at this point, GW could give the community a little something back. They have been pissing on us for the last several years now, and giving us less then the year before, at more of a cost.

While this was going on they could continue work on the emo elves in space, which is already in the works and has things sculpted for it.

Another thing I think is off the mark is the idea that GW has to limit our choices of lists/armies. So long as the company is in the black, they need to give us basically anything we want. Which is pretty obvious, really. It is talked about in the shops and online everywhere.
People want Fanatic back. It was in the black when it was shut down, which makes ZERO sense.
People want Adeptus Mechanicus armies.
People want Far East Armies for Fantasy, which would also make up their cost and then some.
People want Legion CSM lists.
People want plastic greatcoat/gasmask guard.
People want heresy era space marines.
People want a proper bitz service. Manage the inventory properly so it does not bog down your system, while at the same time generating sales. (I am not the only one who's spending, at least to GW itself, went down about 500 a year when bitz went away...). Dozens of other industries make their "bitz" systems work for them, at a profit. GW needs to pull a page from them, and do it.

Every single one of these things above would make money for the company.

They need to remember that they were started in a cottage by two gamers, having fun and playing games. It can be a super serious business, like it is trying to take itself as (seriously, you make toy soldiers....simmer down) and at the same time have fun and support its fan base, who are more and more turning to other things. Be it video games, cheaper miniature games, etc. Hard economic times and video games are not the only things to blame for the loss of fans and gamers. GW is about 50% of the problem, the way that they run things.

There is profit in the company. And there is the ability for them to give us what we want, and still turn that profit. So they need to do it.

I think DE need a codex soon, 10 years is a long wait for an update. I also feel LaTD should be a WD article and it should have come out yesterday. There is no reason GW should discontinue an army entirely.

Clthomps wrote:I think DE need a codex soon, 10 years is a long wait for an update. I also feel LaTD should be a WD article and it should have come out yesterday. There is no reason GW should discontinue an army entirely.

Get in line.

Codex Squats and Codex Heroes of the Imperium were due in 1995.

LATD gets my vote.

Been slowly working on a traitor guard list but would love to have options beyond using the IG codex or Seige of Vraks list.

IMO, Legion of the Damned does not need a full codex. It could easily be made by publishing a White Dwarf article and/or a campaign book - This article / book would list the units that it may contain from the following existing books:

Imperial Guard
Chaos Marines
Chaos Daemons

Dark Eldar on the other hand are in a much more dire need of a new book.

Tacobake wrote:Both?

It is true that LatD are the primary opponent in the fluff.

They could do "Inquisition & LatD" in the same book.

Have you ever read a Gaunt's Ghosts book? They fight evil humans for 300 pages and in the end they're all like "By the Emporer! It's a (singular) Chaos Space Marine! Help!"


I voted for LatD, because so far, I really don't see what makes Dark Eldar that special. They could easily be integrated in one big Space Elf book, I don't see a reason why there should be a difference between their jetbikes or their basic troops. And both get Harlequins.

On the other hand, no self-respecting LatD player would need extra models for his army. The kitbashing was....IS the part of building an army for them.

Dark Eldar are currently RUBBISH, both in appearance and in fluff. They badly need an overhaul.

I am in the early stages of designing and converting an Eldar pirate list, but I am sticking strictly to the Eldar Codex and making them craftworld renegades instead of genuine Dark Eldar because Deldar suck. Put the miniature design in the hands of Jes Goodwin and you'll have an iconic set of figures in no time, just like he did with Eldar themselves back between '89 and '92.

LatD.
But I'm way biased.
LatD, but let us do the models, convertin' in basement labs and attic warrens across the land like a guerrilla army of mad scientists.
Insurgency! Insurgency and anarchy, say I!