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Morning inspection. Myself, and two supervisors.

We enter a cell block, of an inmate that was recently sentanced for 'a long while'...I.E.-he doesnt give a hoot about nuthin'.

He's wearing his jumper improperly, a minor infraction that is typically bypassed. I used to enforce this sort of thing 'till I realised that I was the only shift deputy that was going all "by the book" other deputies constantly overlooked it so I was almost fighting against them.

Not this morning, "those in charge" wish to make an issue out of it.

They tell him to put it on correctly, he refuses. Like I said, he doenst give a damn. They repeat themselves for about a full minute...he starts to get agitated and angry, continuing to refuse.

One of the supervisors loses his patience, and tells him to turn around on the wall. Things are getting more tense so I step forward more into the situation. I notice his grip on the T.V. remote...I'm thinking he might use it as a hand-load and try to cold-cock one of the supervisors with it. Supervisor is repeatedly telling the inmate to turn around, inmate is repeatedly refusing, getting cockier and cockier, he sees now that the deputies arent going to do anything....He has command of the situation, he's doing as he pleases because there are no repercussions.

I have to step into the situation IN FRONT OF MY SUPERVISORS, I reach for the remote and he pulls away from me, I grab the inmate's arm and restrain him in an arm lock, at this point my supervisors finally jump onto the inmate too and all three of us take him to the ground and slap the bracelets on.

After the whole situation one of my supervisors actually has the nerve to tell me that I need to be more visible to these guys so that they maintain proper dress code. I guess she felt she needed to get on my case a little bit since she was looking like an idiot and I had to step in to maintain some sense of authority.

.......................................

Basically, you cannot ask a gang member to do something over and over and expect him to comply if he's of a mind not to. You have to establish dominance by force. Political correctness and a fear of getting your hands dirty will not accomplish anything when you deal with these people.

Second, someone who has lots of time and is a perpetrator of a violent crime is actually one of your most quiet inmates and cause the least trouble....why roust them for something tiny and minor...unless you're trying to establish dominance or just pushing them around....in which case, again, you need to use force.

Least you didn't get hurt eh

..how does one wear a jumper improperly ?

I dunno, Put it on your legs for an MC Hammer type Parachute Pants look?

Top part of jumper worn normally...arms thru sleeves.

Unbuttoned however,and instead of stepping into it, the legs are wrapped around the waist and tied in the front.

I dont get it.

So basically it's a subtle way of the inmate to "stick it to the man". I.E. rebeliousness.

GG

Oh a jumpsuit !

Sorry, over here a jumper is just a top, I think you call them sweaters.

I was trying to imagine how you could wear that improperly..backwards was the best I could come up with.

You keep saying Deputy. Do you work at a county facility or a state pen? If it's a county place, why would you have a long-term prisoner, unless my understanding of the system is really wrong, I was under the impression that any sort of long-term prisoner goes to state-level correctional facilities, not the county lockup.

Or maybe that's just how it is in Illinois (or, I could even be wrong about that)

Redbeard wrote:You keep saying Deputy. Do you work at a county facility or a state pen? If it's a county place, why would you have a long-term prisoner, unless my understanding of the system is really wrong, I was under the impression that any sort of long-term prisoner goes to state-level correctional facilities, not the county lockup.

Or maybe that's just how it is in Illinois (or, I could even be wrong about that)

I am a city Deputy, working in the cities jail.
wh
The problem is overpopulation.

If an inmate is sentanced up to "365" days, they stay here. Once the sentence becomes "1 year" (yes I know they're the same, but for sentencing purposes...they're not) or higher they are supposed to be transported to the regional.

Due to overcrowding at the regional, long term inmates can stay in city lockup for up to 2-3 years, this is not uncommon, and the way I understand it, it sucks for the inmates as well.

I wont say here what the inmate has done or his actual sentence, but he's basically the equivalant of a "MS-13" ganger who has been sentanced for just over 50 years for murder. He's been here in the jail for about 2 years in a single "high profile" cell which is about 8' by 13' cell with a metal rack to sleep on (with a cushion) a toilet, a sink, a tv. He only comes out to shower. He's not going to regional anytime soon due to the overcrowdedness, so he'll stay put for an unknown amount of time, unfortunatly for him. His time would be easier (not that I really care, but still) at the regional.

....and my supervisors are hasseling him about dress code when I'm the only one that will see him all day...for all the sense THAT makes. If they wouldnt have given him a hard time, I would've likely not seen/heard from him any more than a "Good mornin' Dep" when I pass out his noon meal tray. Like I said, if you leave them alone, the serious offenders are the easiest ones to get along with.

The overcrowding in prisons is insane. But no one will take a stand on it. No politician gets re-elected by being pro-prison-reform, they get re-elected by being "Tough on Crime", which just adds to the problem.

California is running the risk of being forced, by the Supreme Court, of having to let a ton of inmates out early because the overcrowding is so bad it constitutes "Cruel and Unusual" punishment. (Although, if they're all overcrowded, I don't see how it's unusual.)

We need to find a new continent to ship all of them too...

I hear Australia has better gun laws than the U.S.

That might make it a good place to send our criminals who have committed gun crimes. I doubt they'd cause any trouble there, since the gun laws are better.

Hordini wrote:I hear Australia has better gun laws than the U.S.

That might make it a good place to send our criminals who have committed gun crimes. I doubt they'd cause any trouble there, since the gun laws are better.

There's stacks of room in the middle. It's a growth industry.

Deadshane1 wrote:Morning inspection. Myself, and two supervisors.

We enter a cell block, of an inmate that was recently sentanced for 'a long while'...I.E.-he doesnt give a hoot about nuthin'.

He's wearing his jumper improperly, a minor infraction that is typically bypassed. I used to enforce this sort of thing 'till I realised that I was the only shift deputy that was going all "by the book" other deputies constantly overlooked it so I was almost fighting against them.

Not this morning, "those in charge" wish to make an issue out of it.

They tell him to put it on correctly, he refuses. Like I said, he doenst give a damn. They repeat themselves for about a full minute...he starts to get agitated and angry, continuing to refuse.

One of the supervisors loses his patience, and tells him to turn around on the wall. Things are getting more tense so I step forward more into the situation. I notice his grip on the T.V. remote...I'm thinking he might use it as a hand-load and try to cold-cock one of the supervisors with it. Supervisor is repeatedly telling the inmate to turn around, inmate is repeatedly refusing, getting cockier and cockier, he sees now that the deputies arent going to do anything....He has command of the situation, he's doing as he pleases because there are no repercussions.

I have to step into the situation IN FRONT OF MY SUPERVISORS, I reach for the remote and he pulls away from me, I grab the inmate's arm and restrain him in an arm lock, at this point my supervisors finally jump onto the inmate too and all three of us take him to the ground and slap the bracelets on.

After the whole situation one of my supervisors actually has the nerve to tell me that I need to be more visible to these guys so that they maintain proper dress code. I guess she felt she needed to get on my case a little bit since she was looking like an idiot and I had to step in to maintain some sense of authority.

.......................................

Basically, you cannot ask a gang member to do something over and over and expect him to comply if he's of a mind not to. You have to establish dominance by force. Political correctness and a fear of getting your hands dirty will not accomplish anything when you deal with these people.

Second, someone who has lots of time and is a perpetrator of a violent crime is actually one of your most quiet inmates and cause the least trouble....why roust them for something tiny and minor...unless you're trying to establish dominance or just pushing them around....in which case, again, you need to use force.

Reason one on why we never should have otten rid of chain gangs. A tired, worn out inmate is a compliant inmate.

I'm not sure how this has to do with political correctness. It sounds like your supervisors just got cushy with their authority and forgot how to properly to their job.

"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."

Why? Because the upper eschelon is afraid to deal with complaints from inmates and inmates' families. They're trying to be PC in that they're trying to treat the animals as civilised people that logically follow instructions.

The best way to handle it would be...

"Inmate, do this....now....*THUMP*...NOW do it, thank you for complying."

However, thats a little harsh for some people.

Deadshane1 wrote:"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."
"Inmate please do this...."

Why? Because the upper eschelon is afraid to deal with complaints from inmates and inmates' families. They're trying to be PC in that they're trying to treat the animals as civilised people that logically follow instructions.

The best way to handle it would be...

"Inmate, do this....now....*THUMP*...NOW do it, thank you for complying."

However, thats a little harsh for some people.

Dude, I agree totally. Everyone today that is a higher up in any corporation is so afraid of getting sued that they won't be tough anymore.
Besides, prisoners revoke all rights to the word "please" when they commit the crime.

Frazzled wrote:
Reason one on why we never should have otten rid of chain gangs. A tired, worn out inmate is a compliant inmate.

Or given them air conditioning or heating (beyond that necessary to sustain life). It's apparent that providing or denying criminals these things doesn't deter crime. (Have a look at 'Tent City' here in Phoenix: http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/ ), so why bother to continue to pay for them?

Here you go Deadshane, you can campaign to have O'l SHerrif Joe hired on as a consultant!

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/miracopjail.htm

Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona) is doing it RIGHT!! He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them. He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights. Cut off all but "G" movies. He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects. Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for discrimination.
He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again but only let in the Disney channel and the weather channel. When asked why the weather channel he replied, so they will know how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.
He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value. When the inmates complained, he told them.....this is a good one......"This isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back."
He bought Newt Gingrich's lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the jails. When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of the inmates were in his jails in the first place. You have to love this guy!!
More on the AZ Sheriff:
With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press reports:
About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to
their government-issued pink boxer shorts. On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the week before. Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on their chests and dripped down to their pink socks. "It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who has lived in the tents for 1 1/2 years. "It's inhumane."
Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is
not one bit sympathetic He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and
they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any crimes... so shut your damned mouths."

I think it'd be fair to at least say please the first time you talk to them.

If they ignore you when you say please there's obviously no point in bothering. I'm guessing most people in prison would fit in this category.

I love Sheriff Joe.

Nah its fair not to taser them the first time you talk to them. After that...meh.

Frazzled wrote:Reason one on why we never should have otten rid of chain gangs. A tired, worn out inmate is a compliant inmate.

Frazz you get to go to level 20 for that comment congrats.

GG

there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails.

God dammit America.

My house didn't even have cable.

As a kid, I remember having a black and white TV. If you could still buy black and white TVs, I'm sure that's what Sheriff Joe would get.

Meh, from the guards and ex-inmates that I've spoken to mutual respect gets the best results.
When a guard, super or inmate is pushing to show, you get issues.
From what I've heard the supers end up stirring up more crap than most, and they tend to be the most detached from the population.
Your super was technically in the 'right', but was directly breaking what keeps the peace.
For what, to throw his weight?
Was the inmate trouble before, because if he didn't have a beef before, he does now. Just a little one.
Like marriages the little things are what matter.
and in those twisted little relationships it the guards and inmates that suffer, not the supers

Yeah, saying please isn't PC, it's politeness. PC has quite a specific meaning.

I think all inmate problems would be solved if they were forced to wear Snuggys.

Nobody looks tough in a Snuggy.

Or pink bunny suits, complete with white puffy ears.


Of course that would be cruel and unusual punishment.

Belphegor wrote:Meh, from the guards and ex-inmates that I've spoken to mutual respect gets the best results.

Respect is earned, not given.

I'll treat you fairly, but if you're in jail for sticking objects into a 9 year old's "privates"...I dont respect you. I'm sort of weird like that.

On the other hand if that same inmate treats me with respect as a uniformed deputy sheriff, doesnt make trouble, and generally follows instructions, I have no problem going out of my way to see that he gets a phone call, gets a new jumper if theirs is unsatisfactory, gets forms they need or whatever. If you act an a$$, chances are I'll either "forget" or just ignore you.

Deadshane1: Respect is earned, not given.

Agreed, of coarse this goes both ways. You can't enforce respect.
If you try to enforce 'respect' it just becomes a waiting game of who tires first and falters.

Deadshane1: I'll treat you fairly, but if you're in jail for sticking objects into a 9 year old's "privates"...I dont respect you.

No doubt.
I'm not talking about liking the person, nor admiring them.
It's the kind of respect you give to someone that's on the other side. An enemy.

Interment areas are always a powder keg, wrapped in fuses.
It's a giant pain, and no one is happy.
Almost all of the responsibility is put on the guards.
It takes a level head to be in that position and do it well.

If the super had a problem with dress code enforcement, he should have talked to the responsible guard away from the population.
Not directly to the prisoner.
It makes the super look weak and it makes the chain of command look weak.
The conflict could have been avoided.

With aggressive people with nothing to lose, the person giving the command needs to have his own muscle.
As opposed to have the muscle bellow him making the call, without a direct order.

Just to be clear. I'm not saying you made a bad call, I'm say your super did.
It's sucks and I'm sorry you have to deal with that.

Belphegor wrote:

Deadshane1: Respect is earned, not given.

Agreed, of coarse this goes both ways. You can't enforce respect.
If you try to enforce 'respect' it just becomes a waiting game of who tires first and falters.

Deadshane1: I'll treat you fairly, but if you're in jail for sticking objects into a 9 year old's "privates"...I dont respect you.

No doubt.
I'm not talking about liking the person, nor admiring them.
It's the kind of respect you give to someone that's on the other side. An enemy.

I forgot to mention, I dont need/want respect from inmates either. What I need/want is compliance.

You break the law, you wind up here. I'm in charge. THAT is jail. Honestly, respect really doesnt even need to come into it.

If the super had a problem with dress code enforcement, he should have talked to the responsible guard away from the population.
Not directly to the prisoner.
It makes the super look weak and it makes the chain of command look weak.
The conflict could have been avoided.

this was in a single man cell.

Just to be clear. I'm not saying you made a bad call, I'm say your super did.
It's sucks and I'm sorry you have to deal with that.

Oh, I TOTALLY agree with that.

Deadshane1: I forgot to mention, I dont need/want respect from inmates either. What I need/want is compliance.
You break the law, you wind up here. I'm in charge. THAT is jail. Honestly, respect really doesnt even need to come into it.

That compliance is the respect I'm talking about.
One of the ways you show respect is by not arbitrarily beating inmates, or not allowing inmates to harm each other and but helping compliant inmates with what they need.
It seems that respect is pretty integral, but we may be using the same language at cross purposes.

Deadshane1: this was in a single man cell.

That's what I'm saying, there was a prisoner present.

I'm not saying you should, but who would you report to if you had a problem with a super?