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Belphegor wrote:

Deadshane1: I forgot to mention, I dont need/want respect from inmates either. What I need/want is compliance.
You break the law, you wind up here. I'm in charge. THAT is jail. Honestly, respect really doesnt even need to come into it.

That compliance is the respect I'm talking about.

Compliance may be a "form" of respect, but when you're in jail, you are REQUIRED to give that form of respect regardless of the demeanor of the Deputy instructing you to comply.

You see, when you give up your right to be free, and come to jail, you WILL comply one way or the other. THAT form of respect CAN be forced out of you. Personally, I dont think its forced enough, and THAT is the cause of the rebellious nature in THIS jail as opposed to other jails.

One of the ways you show respect is by not arbitrarily beating inmates,

obviously, that in and of itself would be against the law.

or not allowing inmates to harm each other

a safety issue and this too falls within my responsibilities.

but helping compliant inmates with what they need.

If by 'need' you mean meals and a safe environment to be incarcerated within, then yes. I have no responsibilities to inmates needs other than that. Anything else I provide them with is pure gravy. Notes from family, visitation, tv, phone, blank legal forms, availiability of snacks, GRAVY. If you WANT it, then you're at my mercy, you'd be smart not to be a jerk...and that doesnt require me to do the same. If I wanted to, I could be all the jerk I want (not that I am, but....) you're still not getting television, you see, I control the switch.

I say that all criminals forfeit all rights, including "basic human rights". They should be beaten when disorderly, forced to do long, hard, back-breaking work, and denied meals when being punished. And they should be forced to grow their own food.

OverbossGhurzubMoga wrote:I say that all criminals forfeit all rights, including "basic human rights".

I think the US constitution disagrees with you.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

OverbossGhurzubMoga wrote:I say that all criminals forfeit all rights, including "basic human rights".

I think the US constitution disagrees with you.

True, but they don't need tv.

Yes they do

AND CABLE THE COURTS EVIDENTLY DECLARE

OverbossGhurzubMoga: I say that all criminals forfeit all rights, including "basic human rights". They should be beaten when disorderly, forced to do long, hard, back-breaking work, and denied meals when being punished. And they should be forced to grow their own food.

hmmm, I hope you don't have any stolen Mp3s, or never have to much to drink publicly.
I guess it's easy, for honest hard working trolls like yourself.
heh, why don't you move to Turkey, they have your style of justice. (except they would give you any land to grow food.)
(obvious troll has an obvious)

mcfly: True, but they don't need tv.

Well how else would you stop them from working out?
How about we give an angry person time do nothing but become more angry and stronger.
and cut them off from contact with others so they get kinda crazy...
It's like asking a windup spark toy, not to spark and not to walk when its key is turned. It just gets all broken.

It's a lame system from all angles. Unless your fishing for tax dollars

Frazzled wrote:Or pink bunny suits, complete with white puffy ears.

Actually this may not be bad idea, there were some studies done that show the color pink(as opposed to red) tends to create more passivity in inmates. So some prisons painted their walls pink. Just think about it, if all inmates were forced to wear pink bunny outfits, do you think they would be more inclined to fight each other?


GG

I probably would be.

generalgrog: if all inmates were forced to wear pink bunny outfits, do you think they would be more inclined to fight each other?

Pink button-downs with popped collars where (and are) in fashion with coke-head frat boys. They seem to like to fight and force themselves physically on others, so I'd have to say no to both more or less....

Though I bet the rate of strangulations would go up. (bunny ears ripped off and tied together, if math is hard)
I guess if your callous you could just force the prisoners to were diapers so there would be less mess.

Belphegor wrote:

mcfly: True, but they don't need tv.

Well how else would you stop them from working out?
How about we give an angry person time do nothing but become more angry and stronger.
and cut them off from contact with others so they get kinda crazy...
It's like asking a windup spark toy, not to spark and not to walk when its key is turned. It just gets all broken.

It's a lame system from all angles. Unless your fishing for tax dollars

Thats what the chain gangs are for. Fix the roads. Pick the cotton.

Depends on if you see prison as a place to rehabilitate people or a place to lock them away from everyone else and punish them, or a bit of both.

Deadshane: That situation sucks! I hate when managers and supervisors butt in and throw their weight around and wreck things through ignorance of the job they actually manage. Nothing worse. And in a dangerous job like yours, a bazillion times worse again. Respect for doing a difficult job.

No it doesn't. Lifting weights, watching TV, and going stir crazy is not rehabilitation. As our rehabiitation rates are brilliantly craptacular I'd posit whatever they're doin' ain't workin.

Oh I'm not saying what they're doing is working at all! It's obviously not. But I mean, theoretically, it could work. Maybe. Maybe not.

Belphegor wrote:

OverbossGhurzubMoga: I say that all criminals forfeit all rights, including "basic human rights". They should be beaten when disorderly, forced to do long, hard, back-breaking work, and denied meals when being punished. And they should be forced to grow their own food.

hmmm, I hope you don't have any stolen Mp3s, or never have to much to drink publicly.
I guess it's easy, for honest hard working trolls like yourself.
heh, why don't you move to Turkey, they have your style of justice. (except they would give you any land to grow food.)
(obvious troll has an obvious)

Sorry, I guess sarcasm/humor doesn't translate well into words lacking expressions.

I really do believe that convicted criminals forfeit most of their rights, like the freedom of speech and such. I also believe they should be forced to grow their own food. I'm tired of my tax dollars going to feed and house idiots who choose to break the laws.

hmmm, I hope you don't have any stolen Mp3s, or never have to much to drink publicly.

Every bit of music I have was purchased either from iTunes or bought as a CD. As far as the drinking publicly, I hate bars.

I see where you say that I am a troll and it does look that way. Sorry 'bout that. Was just trying a bit of humor.

I say that all criminals forfeit all rights, including "basic human rights". They should be beaten when disorderly, forced to do long, hard, back-breaking work, and denied meals when being punished. And they should be forced to grow their own food.

Prisons should be about rehabilitation not punishment. Creating a harsh environment with hundreds of convicts in one place doesn't reduce crime and doesn't reduce the chance of repeat offense once the criminals go free. Check repeat offense rates in south america, africa, or the eastern blok. The harsher less forgiving the jail, the more likely they are to form gangs, to become harsher and less forgiving people, and upon release the more likely and violent their repeat offenses. The lack of rehabilitation is one of the leading causes of prison overcrowding. The revolving door needs to be stopped.

Rehabilitation works better than harsh punishment. It's just less savory, it doesn't feel like they are being "punished".

Thats the broken part of the mindset.

All you are doing is turning them into what you think they are.

I'm not sure you can peg down increased repetition of criminal offenses in poverty-stricken countries with unstable governments as being caused by the jail system. Surely there must be a lot else at work?

I wouldn't say rehabilitation and punishment are mutually exclusive, either.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm not sure you can peg down increased repetition of criminal offenses in poverty-stricken countries with unstable governments as being caused by the jail system. Surely there must be a lot else at work?

I wouldn't say rehabilitation and punishment are mutually exclusive, either.

True enough, you can gain a good amount of insight by looking at recidivism rates between US jails and prisons if you don't want to cross the border. Historically the worst prisons have almost always been accompanied by high rates of recidivism. It's fairly logical. When you spend a decade in a hellish place, surrounded by other convicts, your guards treating you poorly, the food tasting bad, and all you really have to do is communicate with other inmates then two things occur. You get bored, and you begin to become institutionalized to the culture of prison; which is far from a good thing. Prison teaches you to defend yourself because others are out to get you, to act tough, to be violent rather then forgiving. Prison life reinforces everything that the "punishment" of the prison is supposed to cure.

Punishment and reward go hand in hand with rehabilitation. My personal stance is the belief that prisons should be solitary places. The inmates day should consist of the inmate, his workmates, his therapists, and himself. Social contact can be reintroduced to inmates with good behavior. Forcing the worst parts of society to socialize and interact in a relatively unobserved manner and in incredibly close quarters doesn't serve to rehabilitate well.

I hope you mean rehabilitation on a case by case basis.

I have no interest in being able to rehabilitate someone who rapes then EATS his own children.

Rabid dogs like that need to be put down....quickly.

Deadshane1 wrote:I hope you mean rehabilitation on a case by case basis.

I have no interest in being able to rehabilitate someone who rapes then EATS his own children.

Rabid dogs like that need to be put down....quickly.

Well ideally the system would deal with the subjects case by case. A sex offender does not respond to rehabilitation as well as a violent, drug, gang, or white collar offender. But thats true of the current system as well. The point is the careful application of resources towards the best outcome, that outcome being a greatly reduced rate of criminal recidivism. As it is we actually waste more money by cutting costs and focusing on more traditional punishments due to the high rate of repeat offenses.

Curious though, was that just the worst case you could think of? Or do you run into those types a lot?

inmates shouldnt have rights
there in there for a reason they commited a crime
but since jail isnt considered a punishment anymore we fall with are criminals
i think the only thing a inmate deserves is
1:water
2:food
3:10 minutes outside
4:medical care

Deadshane, when you first said 'PC', I thought you meant 'Protective Custody'. Then again, I have the mindset of a prisoner. That might explain things a bit.

This is a pretty common occurance in jail, especially juvenile. Pride is the biggest problem in the whole system, among both inmates and COs, and there's nothing you can do to change it.

As for the whole 'Respect must be earned' thing, I think you should give as much respect to a prisoner as you would to any random stranger you might meet (For all you know, they're criminals as well. Maybe not convicted, but even so). Once they disrespect you in the slightest, then they forfeit that, of course. But prisoners are people, and unless you actually spend some time with any of them, you know little to nothing about their demeanor or circumstance. This is their life, and the jail is their home. Keep that in mind, and I guarantee you will have less altercations and problems with inmates.

Also, I'm really sick of people saying that prisoners deserve less than nothing, actual physical punishment, etc. I know it might just be good-natured, but still. Put yourself in their position. Go lock yourself in a small room with a one-inch tarp matress, feed yourself three fifty cent meals a day (good luck finding that), and give yourself absolutely nothing to do but perhaps read a book. Until you do that, please, shut up (And I don't want to hear 'I don't commit crimes', because their are people in jail for things as trivial as self defense).

Chrysaor686 wrote:
Also, I'm really sick of people saying that prisoners deserve less than nothing, actual physical punishment, etc. I know it might just be good-natured, but still. Put yourself in their position. Go lock yourself in a small room with a one-inch tarp matress, feed yourself three fifty cent meals a day (good luck finding that), and give yourself absolutely nothing to do but perhaps read a book. Until you do that, please, shut up (And I don't want to hear 'I don't commit crimes', because their are people in jail for things as trivial as self defense).

No I will NOT PUT MYSELF IN THEIR POSITION. Thats the ing point.
them. They are a waste of skin and a threat to my family.

There's a pretty broad range of people in prison. These are not equal: the frat boy caught with a bag of weed; someone who was DUI and killed someone in a car accident; a father that molests his own children. Some can be rehabed. Some cannot. There's a big difference between someone who made a 'once in a lifetime' mistake (deliberate or accidental), someone that commits a fairly minor crime, someone who commits a non-violent crime, and someone who victimizes their fellow citizens.

In the US, we warehouse prisoners. We don't try to rehabilitate them (for the most part).

The other problem with prison is that it's 'crime university'. You put a bunch of criminals together, and what do they do? Compare notes on how to commit crimes.

Frazzled: No I will NOT PUT MYSELF IN THEIR POSITION. Thats the ing point.
them. They are a waste of skin and a threat to my family.

Really? All of them? A threat?
I think you wrapped your privilege-blanket a bit too tight.
It may be getting a bit warm, cooking the synapses and all.

Jokes aside.
I've never really felt threatened by criminals (as a social and economic class).
Though, a large amount of our laws are applied arbitrarily or by economic status.
So I wager there are just as many criminals that aren't in the 'system'.
Hmmm, so everyone could be or is a potential criminal.
I starting to think that the anti-rehabilitation folks just want to cut down their competition.

for once i agree with frzz just a little
but like i said prison should be a punishment not a rehab

Belphegor wrote:

Jokes aside.
I've never really felt threatened by criminals (as a social and economic class).
Though, a large amount of our laws are applied arbitrarily or by economic status.
So I wager there are just as many criminals that aren't in the 'system'.
Hmmm, so everyone could be or is a potential criminal.
I starting to think that the anti-rehabilitation folks just want to cut down their competition.

Then you've never been mugged, shot at, or had anything stolen from you. If I had led a sheltered life like that I wouldn't either.

Nuts.

In the US, we warehouse prisoners. We don't try to rehabilitate them (for the most part).

The other problem with prison is that it's 'crime university'. You put a bunch of criminals together, and what do they do? Compare notes on how to commit crimes.

Agreed and thats the problem. If we had a workable effective rehabilitation program I'd be much more in support of that in line with Shuma (as well as expelling foreign nationals who commit crimes here, after they've served their time).

The point about rehab is that without it you might as well just chuck criminals down disused mine shafts.

Its not hard to stay out of trouble...really it isnt.

Therefore, it isnt hard to stay out of jail.


That being said, what happens when 'so and so' gets arrested on a bogus charge or wrongly? I'll tell you.

'so and so' was arrested for we'll say robbing a 7-11, he is actually a law abiding citizen and just happened to be wearing the same t-shirt as the true purp.

'so and so' is now locked up. Do I treat him differently than all the other inmates? No, it isnt my job to judge people and its unfair besides. HOWEVER, chances are that 'so and so' being a law abiding citizen to start with will probably be a calm prisoner and do whatever time he is forced to do w/o making my job more difficult. Will I have to thump him? Most probably not, as he is compliant, cooperative, and generally appreciative of any 'errands' I take care of for him. His calmness and willingness to do his part to make my 12 hours at work easier will be noticed, and I'll be as pleasant as is warrented. I do not know 'so and so' however, he isnt family or friend, so while I may be sympathetic to his plight...its none of my business. He is still an inmate, and needs to accept his situation.

Those that DO get rowdy are pretty much the actual criminals....so F*** them.

If you're innocent of your crime, and STILL get rowdy....F*** them too. I didnt put them there, and I'm not asking for the headache.

Again, respect doesnt even enter into it.

Really? All of them? A threat?
I think you wrapped your privilege-blanket a bit too tight.
It may be getting a bit warm, cooking the synapses and all.

Jokes aside.
I've never really felt threatened by criminals (as a social and economic class).
Though, a large amount of our laws are applied arbitrarily or by economic status.
So I wager there are just as many criminals that aren't in the 'system'.
Hmmm, so everyone could be or is a potential criminal.
I starting to think that the anti-rehabilitation folks just want to cut down their competition.

I think YOU might need MY job for about a year. I'm sure your opinion would change.

We're not talking about the 'so and so's' here.

Its the real criminals we're talking about.

You SHOULD feel threatened....and the rehabilitation we DO offer? You know why 80% of them utilise it?

It's easier time....more privilidges. Do you really think a member of the 'Bloods' cares about getting his G.E.D.? Don't make me laugh. It's the fact that they have a DVD player in the block and 24 hour TV.

Those people it DOES help...great, good for them, but they should've been getting educated OUTSIDE of a jailhouse. Having to come to jail to complete your education is a joke.

Frazzled: Then you've never been mugged, shot at, or had anything stolen from you. If I had led a sheltered life like that I wouldn't either.
Nuts.

If I could reach through the interwebs, I'd pitch your cheeks.

When I was talking about not feeling threatened by 'criminals' I was talking the imaginary bogeyman usage of the word.
You know, when people lump a large group of diverse individuals into a single non-differentiating categories, like 'terrorists' or 'lawyers'.
imaginary ~Criminals~ somewhere... lurking... maybe a killer, maybe has too much weed (either still going to the same place) = not threatening
guy with a mini-crowbar catching me off guard = threatening
cop threatening to shoot me for maintaining a defensive position against someone he's not in control of = threatening
the current system & pursuing a system of harsher punishment will fix neither the real or imagined problems