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I decided to ask here first because I think if anyone is going to say I was the bad sportsman, it would be someone from here.

My opponent and I roll for missions and it's "Dawn of War Objectives".

Me: "Ah okay I've never played this before what happens?"

Luke: "There are [pause, rolls dice] five objectives."

*Roll dice, I place objective first, all five go down*

He wins the next roll and decides to go first and deploys a tactical squad, declaring everything but the vanguards and drop pod to come on first turn, and I declare my crisis suits and broadsides to come on first turn with the rest in reserves.

He has his first turn.

Me: "Are you going to pop smoke?" *puzzled look*

Luke: "Nope! No smoke."

Me: "Errr...okay..."

I have my first turn.

Me: "Alright I shoot at the land raider."

Luke: "Roll for night fight."

Me: "There's night fight? I didn't know that."

So my opponent and I sort of continue on, I fire some crisis suits at a drop pod, end my turn, he deep strikes his vanguard, then I start to whinge about him not telling me about night fight.

Luke: "What do you want to do? Start again?" *said in sarcasm*

Me: "I would like to start again, yes. The only other thing is, I don't want to start again because that would be just a messed up as you not telling me about night fight."

Luke: "I feel like I'm being blamed here for you not knowing the rules."

Me: "Then we better just not play this game."

And I pack up my army.




This is ridiculous. He goes and tells his friends about me not knowing about dawn of war rules and how it's all my fault. I clearly stated that I had *not* played it before and did *not* know what happens. I also made it very obvious I had no idea about night fight when I asked if he was popping smoke. Instead of saying "there's no point in popping smoke, it's night fight", he thought he could just say "no!" in such a fashion that he was actually doing me a favor! In my opinion, the fact that he did not tell me about night fight after I asked if he was popping smoke on his vehicles that were out of night fight sight range, meant that not only did he know I didn't know about the night fight rules (which I had already told him), but that he planned on winning the game over me not knowing the rule.

Also, why ask me if I want to start again if you're going to whinge if I say yes?

Probably both of you I'm afraid.

Yes he was a knob for not ensuring you were up to speed, but equally, just packing up your stuff over it wasn't terribly mature.

Still, you live you learn!

Concede the match and ask for an immediate rematch or something. It can't have been a
very fun game for him winning without you knowing stuff.

If you own a Warhammer 40,000 basic rule book, then you should understand how the missions are played.

Ignorance of a rule is no exception.

What if it's a new player, can I exploit his lack of familiarity with the core rules?

Also seconding both. You should really have read the rules before the game instead of letting someone interpret them, cuts down on dickishness all around. Complaining about it later after dice are rolled and walking out makes you look like the bad guy.



Also how could you have never played DoW, with 250+ games under the belt?

I would say you are at fault here.

You are the one that didnt read the book.

And you are the one that chose to end the game NOT him.

When someone is at fault, they normally should be more cooperating , your case you made it worse.

I think you were a poor sport, and it's possible that your opponent was. You could have read the mission, and 8 months into 5th edition it really shouldn't be a suprise to anybody but a new player. Your opponent should have mentioned night fight, particularly since it appeared that he knew about it. So in short, he was a jerk, and you were a crybaby. You were justified, to an extent, but packing up was a bit... dramatic.

If one of you had a rulebook present it would have taken a grand total of about 30 seconds to read to DoW rules. So yes, If I were him, I would be rather teed off if we had a rulebook and you chose not to educate yourself.

If you didn't have a rulebook present, which unless you play with people with photographic memories, you should have one, then yes, he should have informed you of the night fight rule. In that case, the best solution would probably be a roll off.

If you had said "I don't know the SM codex well. What special rules should I know?", and he didn't tell you this would have been a different story.

But this is a common scenario from the main rulebook. Open you rulebook and read it for yourself.

You were the bad sport.

take care

Sounds like some kind of miscommunication. You state that you told him you didn't know what goes on in the scenario. The presence of night fight is a part of the scenario? He should have either related ALL of the scenario to you, or he should have told you to look it up while he was setting up.

NO_SUCH: He was asking for help by admitting that he didn't know the rules for the scenario. What's wrong with that? It's not like he rolled that info out after deployment was done.

I have to admit, ending the game may have cost you an opponent. This is a call you have to be ready to make, although if this guy was, as you say, trying to cheese you, maybe you don't want to play him in the future anyway.

I mean hell people. The guy asked. He should have been told all the rules pertinent to the question, or given a minute to look over the mission. If Onlainari had either of these and still screwed it up, then hes in the wrong but that's not the impression I am getting here.

I felt I could trust him, I didn't read the mission in the rulebook since he was telling me what happened anyway. Also it takes time for someone to start reading rules when all you want to do is start the game, he's not a patient person.

I packed up because I was not going to have any fun playing it out and he sure didn't look like he was having any fun either.

Were you that far along that you didn't have time to start over?

malfred wrote:Were you that far along that you didn't have time to start over?

I would have been happy to start over and made this clear.

He was not happy to start over.

Nothing had really happened.

avantgarde wrote:Also how could you have never played DoW, with 150+ games under the belt?

I have played Dawn of War before two times, neither of which was played with night fight. Neither of those opponents either remembered it or knew about it.

Also I've played 9 games of 5th edition, this was to be my 10th.

You didn't know the rules and your opponent was unforgiving. You could have just conceded the game immediately and asked for rematch.

olympia wrote:You didn't know the rules and your opponent was unforgiving. You could have just conceded the game immediately and asked for rematch.

onlainari wrote:

malfred wrote:Were you that far along that you didn't have time to start over?

I would have been happy to start over and made this clear.

He was not happy to start over.

Nothing had really happened.

Wait, I don't have a rulebook in front of me. In fact, it's 11,000 miles away. IS night fight a part of DoW?

I never remember about the night fighting either.

I probably should, since I'm usually the one getting shot at.

::EDIT:: Yeah, it is part of DoW though.

malfred wrote:

olympia wrote:You didn't know the rules and your opponent was unforgiving. You could have just conceded the game immediately and asked for rematch.

onlainari wrote:

malfred wrote:Were you that far along that you didn't have time to start over?

I would have been happy to start over and made this clear.

He was not happy to start over.

Nothing had really happened.

Perhaps the OP's opponent didn't want to start over because he wanted the win. That's why I suggested the OP concede.

avantgarde wrote:
You should really have read the rules before the game instead of letting someone interpret them, cuts down on dickishness all around. Complaining about it later after dice are rolled and walking out makes you look like the bad guy.



Also how could you have never played DoW, with 250+ games under the belt?

That's what we do, to refresh everyone's memory. We roll Dawn of War so many times (and loathe it), we don't play it until we the dice tell us to after the third re-roll..

I pretty much disagree with alot of you here. Yes your whining is annoying, but frankly when a player YOU are playing says flat out "I've never played this mission before" Its incumbent on YOU if you HAVE played before to walk them through.

Personally not only was your opponent a bad sport, but he's also a cheat. It sounds flat out like he deliberately left it out KNOWING you have never played before and was talking advantage of you playing tau with the nightfight slight of hand.

If he was a gentleman player, he should have restarted without a concession, ESPECIALLY if he suggests it.

Taking advantage of your opponet is cheap.

carmachu wrote:
Taking advantage of your opponet is cheap.

QFT

I've forgotten all about the night fighting rules in the Dawn of War mission several times, and so did my opponent. It was usually the third or fourth turn before it occurred to one of us. We usually have a laugh about it, because on the first turn anything on the table is generally huddled under cover waiting for the enemy to commit. Don't let it bother you so much.

Onlainari apparantly you requested Dawn of War.

Luke was surprised you had never actually learnt the rules for night fight as you seem to be across all the other rules in the rulebook.

"I clearly stated that I had *not* played it before and did *not* know what happens."

and

"I have played Dawn of War before two times, neither of which was played with night fight. Neither of those opponents either remembered it or knew about it."

So which is it?

I know that you played a guard player who was playing his first game of 5th ed and you seemed to know the rules there (even requesting to play DoW against him.)

And I do like it how you bring Luke Jensons reputation (19th in sports in the Australian/40K Tournament rankings) into disrepute on a forum where you didnt think he would see...

Whats poor form? Walking out on a game because you didnt think to read a common mission in the rulebook that should be played 1/3 of the time and that would have affected you for one turn; or trying to portray yourself as the victim against a evil conniving opponent who somehow managed to be the top 20 for sports for all of Australia and NZ...

Aeon: Well, seems you were there and you actually saw this go down. I'm not takin a side for or against given that, since I wasn't. Thanks for coming in and clearing some things up (namely that there IS a second side to the story).

But why the name dropping of Luke Jenson, but not Onlainari? Just out of curiosity, really.

Aeon wrote:Onlainari apparantly you requested Dawn of War.

Luke was surprised you had never actually learnt the rules for night fight as you seem to be across all the other rules in the rulebook.

Okay well I didn't request dawn of war, Luke rolled it. Odd if he said that. Does it really help his case if I had requested it? If yes then that's pretty sad making it up.

Luke was surprised I didn't know dawn of war had night fight and this became obvious to me when I was complaining about him not telling me. He said something that really made it clear what went wrong:

Luke: "I must have missed the part where I had to tell you all the rules."

Me: "Yes, you must have missed it, because I said when we rolled for the mission that I had never played it and asked how it works."

Aeon wrote:"I clearly stated that I had *not* played it before and did *not* know what happens."

and

"I have played Dawn of War before two times, neither of which was played with night fight. Neither of those opponents either remembered it or knew about it."

So which is it?

Both. I had clearly stated I had not played the mission before and did not know what happens.

And the last time I played dawn of war, my opponent and I thought everything had to be in reserve and nothing came on the board until turn 2, even then only on a 4+.

I answer a lot of rules questions because I read the question, read the rule books, and answer. I often don't know the answer beforehand. And I usually post in rules threads where opinions are relevant, not where there's a clear cut answer, so there's some interpretation to be had which has little to do with memorizing the whole rulebook.

Because Onlainari already named Luke in his orginal post (so would be hard to hide behind the 'anomonity factor')

Id rather put a name to Onlainari's 'bad sportsman' so people would know who he was referring to and not the other Luke at the club.

Aeon: thanks, I must have missed that. I guess, it's there several times.

Aeon wrote:And I do like it how you bring Luke Jensons reputation (19th in sports in the Australian/40K Tournament rankings) into disrepute on a forum where you didnt think he would see...

This is nonsense. I have this thread clearly labelled in my signiture where he will see it on wau. I asked here because this forum is the *least* likely to stray off topic and *most* likely to give blunt and honest answers. They also don't miss things. WAU posters are famous for completely missing whole sentences said previously, and they have to be said again by me.

Aeon wrote:Whats poor form? Walking out on a game because you didnt think to read a common mission in the rulebook that should be played 1/3 of the time and that would have affected you for one turn; or trying to portray yourself as the victim against a evil conniving opponent who somehow managed to be the top 20 for sports for all of Australia and NZ...

Apparently they're both things I did, and apparently one of them is definitely poor form according to a few people here. On the other hand apparently Luke also had poor form.

It would have been nice when I made it clear I hadn't played the mission before, to tell me to read the mission because it will be important. I was trusting him to tell me everything.

Aeon wrote:
And I do like it how you bring Luke Jensons reputation (19th in sports in the Australian/40K Tournament rankings) into disrepute on a forum where you didnt think he would see...

Whats poor form? Walking out on a game because you didnt think to read a common mission in the rulebook that should be played 1/3 of the time and that would have affected you for one turn; or trying to portray yourself as the victim against a evil conniving opponent who somehow managed to be the top 20 for sports for all of Australia and NZ...

And that means what exactly? Both diddly and squat.

Again, your assuming he knows the DoW rules. Whether he's played it none, once, or twice, if your fellow your advocating truely was a great sport you claim, why wouldnt he walk him through it? That would be the good sportsmen thing to do....

Sorry, bot buying your logic.