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So after some thinking about the current state of "The Hobby" in general, both in personal terms for myself and for others in the grand scheme of things and from my perspective as a "Tournament Gamer" I have less and less reason to give GW my money, despite the fact that I play their games.

First off GW canceled their Tourney circuit in the US this year, so even if I cared to go to one of their overpriced events - I can't.

Moving on, as I look ahead at the calendar year, all the events I really would want to go to are Independent ones. And if what I'm seeing (and what I'm doing personally) is any indication, there is less and less reason to be spending tons of cash on GW models if you're going to be primarily playing amongst friends and at Indy GT's.

I just came off a "Warhammer High" after playing in the Colonial GT last weekend, which IMO is the best Indy GT on the East Coast. While there I saw tons of armies that did not use standard GW models. The amount of "counts as" was exceptionally high, even more than last year and almost all of it was straight up good stuff. There were a few pieces that were “outrageous” – there was an Engine of the Gods that was a plastic Brontosaurus toy that had an old Stegadon Howdah on top with a big Marble attached to it that could spin. It was pretty hilarious IMO, but I had no problems when I played against the guy who had it in Game 6.

There was a case where someone had a far less “outrageous” conversion that had a plastic Phoenix toy from Michaels that was converted and repainted up to be a Zombie Dragon. It actually looked fantastic, but again it’s far and away from GW’s models

On top of this there was a ton of other cheap “counts as” things that looked fine but were very straight forward conversions. New Plastic Chaos Knights ($22 for 5) as Blood Knights ($75 for 5). There were tons of things like this using say converted larger models (generally plastic Ogres) to represent mounted Chaos characters on Daemon steeds.

Looking at my own armies (see sig) I’m constantly looking at more and more cheap conversions or straight up “counts as” units to stand in for GW’s exceptionally expensive metals or even plastics in some cases. I’m already using plastic ghouls with a minor conversion to be my Horrors, I’ve got plastic Warhounds standing in for Flesh Hounds. As I expand my DE army I’m going to use the plastic Corsair kit to convert up my Black Guard (normally $90+ for a unit of 20 metals).

Moving past that, even if I wanted “nice” models, I’m more likely to go to Ultraforge to get their awesome resin’s rather than use the GW metals and my price premium is very small given GW’s current pricing.

Given this, and things you’ll hear about from the Australian tourney scene or the UK/EU one to a lesser extent, and I think at least for WHFB this is becoming far more prevalent. With GW cancelling their tournies this year, I can’t see this getting any better for them.

Thoughts?

I normally only buy GW items for tournaments.

They will lose revenue because of it, but losses will be concealed by the economic downturn.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:from my perspective as a "Tournament Gamer" I have less and less reason to give GW my money, despite the fact that I play their games.

Thoughts?

Adapt or die?

It's been pretty clear for the past few years that GW is moving 40k away from Tournament-style gaming towards Objective-based scenario gaming. Apocalypse got 2 solid books and several kits, Planetstrike is coming out this year with terrain support, and GW has just announced Planetary Empires for campaign map support.

Now, you're a WFB player, and for whatever reason, casual gaming isn't taking off there. Mighty Empires seems to be kind of flat, and Legendary Battles seems not to have gone big like Apoc. If the Indy GTs are working for you, the keep at them.

But, regardless, if you don't like what GW's doing, then just don't buy from them.

Perhaps when WFB 8E or 9E rolls around, WFB will move to Objectives / casual play, too. But you've got a while, so you might as well make the most of it.

I think I saw at least a bit of the writing on the wall last year at Games Day Toronto. While there were lots of enthusiastic volunteers there, the event was generally light on overall effort by GW as I saw it. Some of the independent stores had nice displays and tables, which was great and I'll admit that the Forge World Store was well stocked (rightly so since it's a guaranteed money maker). On GW's side though, the place was sparse. The GW store went from poorly stocked in the morning to dismal in the afternoon and there didn't seem to be much in terms of new tables or anything like that. I think the event still turned out well overall (at least it was a nice day out for my friends and I) and the Golden Demon stuff, which was what I really wanted to see, was great.

I chocked the lackluster showing on GW's part up to the fact that the Canadian operation was widely known to be 'going away' at that point. It seems now that that may not have been the only bit at work.

Most of the newer releases like Apocalypse and the like don't seem to be heavily geared toward tourneys, which has been alluded to here already. Likewise the latest pricing structure definitely makes it pay for your average FLGS to run everything from tourneys to events to painting clinics more or less on their own. The Grey Knights up here seem to be going away as well. It's looking more and more like individual shops will be the nexus for hobby events and tourneys over the next while.

I can't say it all effects me that much since I don't really have an inclination toward a Grand Tournament (I'm just as happy to wander into the tourney with All Grotz Must Die and have a blast). For those folks who look forward to the Grand Tournament every year though, well, things are changing and maybe it will turn out well and maybe not. I hope it does. For the time being though, it looks as though the Grand Tourneys are gone and for the folks who enjoy them, that's a sad thing.

MrGiggles wrote:It's looking more and more like individual shops will be the nexus for hobby events and tourneys over the next while.

You don't have an at-home gamer scene?

That's a good point. I suppose it's about 50/50. My friends and I are older and tend to be separated by geography somewhat. There are definitely home games, especially in the summer, but more and more the local shops are serving as a good half-way point for us. With a tourney or so a month, it's often as not a descent way to spend the day.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:from my perspective as a "Tournament Gamer" I have less and less reason to give GW my money, despite the fact that I play their games.

Thoughts?

Adapt or die?

It's been pretty clear for the past few years that GW is moving 40k away from Tournament-style gaming towards Objective-based scenario gaming. Apocalypse got 2 solid books and several kits, Planetstrike is coming out this year with terrain support, and GW has just announced Planetary Empires for campaign map support.

I guess thats why they are running the Euro GTs still? Because they aren't planning on Tournies?

I doubt this is true.

The GTs are down this year. They will be back next year.

Revenue loss? I wonder how significant it is, seeing as how the tourney gamers are suppossedly the outliers on the far end of the curve, as far as sales go. Tourney gamers are not, again I say suppossedly, where the bulk og GW revenue comes from.

You know, to be honest, I am not sure just how much I buy all that. About competitive players (which is how I define tourney gamers, FYI. slightly different than most, I know) being so far down the pie chart of GW demographics. Not because I have some conspiracy theory about GW, but rather simply because it's what we are being given. I have not met anyone who has numbers about how GW sales break down, and to be honest I am not sure even GW quotes on it would be accurate. Basically, I am saying I have doubts because I have no details. And I doubt I ever will.

I think GW has some numbers, but they won't share.

GW only host a handful of GTs, which are attended by hundreds of gamers each. So that might be around 1000 tournament gamers total each year.

Then compare with sales of Apoc product in the same timeframe.

Then compare with new kids getting into the hobby.

Apoc has nothing to do with the cancellation of USGTs for 2009. Let GW North America get stabilized and see what happens.

You'd think the lack of an Apoc/GT relationship would be obvious given that GW is still running the UKGTs -- which are decidedly more hardcore than USGTs -- at their headquarters. If this was a strategic decision coming from higher ups, you'd see the UKGTs affected first.

But I realize that facts don't matter when you have an agenda to push...

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think GW has some numbers, but they won't share.

GW only host a handful of GTs, which are attended by hundreds of gamers each. So that might be around 1000 tournament gamers total each year.

Then compare with sales of Apoc product in the same timeframe.

Then compare with new kids getting into the hobby.

True, they'd almost HAVE to have numbers. And as far as them sharing; I don't blame them. However, I am more curious as to HOW that information was gathered. HOW did they generate those numbers, and are they really a reflection of reality. After, we only have their word on it. Someone comes in and buys a Baneblade. Well, is that person a "modeler" who just puts these things together, or are they an Apoc junkie? How does GW know? I have bought a few things from them from thei website, in their Glen Burnie and other stores, from Indies, and from other online sources. That's a lot of sales outlets.

How do they track data from all those outlets on all the sales? I never had to answer a question, or fill out a survey for them on what type of gamer I am. OK, that establishes that they don't follow either each sale, or each gamer. Ludicrous propositions both of course, but it sets an upper limit of data that they have shown they will not rise to in their collection.

So where do they get their data? And, since their data has already been shown to be incomplete (as really it could only be given their sales magnitude), the MOST important question becomes what assumptions are they modeling their data off of? THat, friends and neighbors, would be interesting to know.

I have a feeling that the competitive gaming crowd (that being the ones most interested in the rules and how well they work) is larger than they think. I feel that it is larger than their assumptions. I cannot back that up. It is just a feeling.

I agree with griz. Anyone who has ever taken a simple statistics class knows you can really make numbers say anything if you want to and that means that they are heavily affected by bias.

And it's been mentioned in other threads but the amount of money that tournements generate is quite a bit larger than just the money made at the event would indicate. Just the trickle downs and assuming even half of those 1000 players John mentioned built new armies your looking at easily 250k in revenues which is more than some of their stores make in a year. That's assuming the army only costs $500 (which any mechanized list, mostly metal, or horde army, cept nids, costs well more than) and that it's for 40k. How much does a skaven horde, vampire horde, or demon army cost each? Fantasy has gotten cheaper but is still very expensive and generally at a higher point value.

Really, I would love to see their assumptions more than anything else. Depending upon how flawed they may be, everything they have built on top of that in the way of analysis and strategy would be similarly flawed.

Our tourneys here were independents before GW rocked up upon our shores (with a corporate presence and stores and all that), and went back to that way after they pulled out of them. Some of us barely noticed.

For those people that the GT was their only way to get to games with other people - did none of you think to start a 'club'? Even if it's just a backyard thing (many of our clubs started this way). They all reached a point where larger premises were needed, and with large enough numbers, they could sustain themselves (of course, then 9-11 happened, and public liability insurance went through the roof, and many went under faster.)

gorgon wrote:Apoc has nothing to do with the cancellation of USGTs for 2009. Let GW North America get stabilized and see what happens.

You'd think the lack of an Apoc/GT relationship would be obvious given that GW is still running the UKGTs -- which are decidedly more hardcore than USGTs -- at their headquarters. If this was a strategic decision coming from higher ups, you'd see the UKGTs affected first.

But I realize that facts don't matter when you have an agenda to push...

Indeed.

And by that, I mean your agenda as a tournament gamer to overstate the importance of tournaments to "the hobby".

The fact of the matter is, if GTs and RTTs and other Tournaments really did drive the lion's share of sales, etc., really did drive new blood, really did drive events, then GW wouldn't touch them, wouldn't cancel them for a year, they'd expand them. The very fact that GW was able to shut down the RTT circuit, and then to shut down the GTs without going out of business means that Tournaments are not so important.

Or, put another way, has GW ever gone a year without pimping SMs in some way? Not that I can think of. SMs are the bread-and-butter on which 40k and GW profit are totally dependant upon. If GW's profits and financial viability is tied to SMs, then shutting down the entire line for a year would be financial suicide, which is why it hasn't happened, and won't happen. It's why the new SM book actually creates brand new SM units out if thin air, simply to drive additional SM sales when GW needs an extra cash infusion from the SM base. GW knows they can get extra money just by scheduling an extra wave of SM stuff, so they hold this in their back pocket.

So GW can claim whatever they like about "transitions", but the fact of the matter is GW NA is shutting down on anything that doesn't earn its keep, and the US GTs, like GW Canada were on that list, following after "FREE" content like Black Gobbo. 5th Edition, Space Marines, Apocalypse, Guard, WotR, Planetstrike, and all of the various things that GW reasonably expects to make money on stayed on the schedule. If US Tournaments really were core, GW would have found a way to protect RTTs and GTs during the various "transitions".

And as for strategic decisions, UK GTs and US GTs are very different animals. For starters, GW owns their UK Tournament facility, so the cost factors are very different. As we saw in the GT cost review, the US has vast distances which result in massive shipping and rental costs, along with staff travel costs and expenses. Take all of those costs out (NO shippping, NO rental, NO travel, NO expenses), and a GT instantly becomes a cheap way to drum up a little extra marketing for no additional cost. Indeed, those UK GT events probably turn a tidy little profit for GW, rather than requiring GW to dip into the US Marketing budget.

So yeah, facts are a problem when you've got an agenda to push.

Especially if that agenda is to justify US GTs.

But I realize that facts don't matter when you have an agenda to push...

He can't troll DE players anymore, so he switched to tournament players. I mean, since Hwang hates DE and tournaments, GW must feel the same way, right?

Or, put another way, has GW ever gone a year without pimping SMs in some way?

They skip a year of GTs but they never skip 'pimping' SMs, so GTs must be cancelled for good? Do you work in politics? Or AM radio?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

gorgon wrote:Apoc has nothing to do with the cancellation of USGTs for 2009. Let GW North America get stabilized and see what happens.

You'd think the lack of an Apoc/GT relationship would be obvious given that GW is still running the UKGTs -- which are decidedly more hardcore than USGTs -- at their headquarters. If this was a strategic decision coming from higher ups, you'd see the UKGTs affected first.

But I realize that facts don't matter when you have an agenda to push...

The fact of the matter is, if GTs and RTTs and other Tournaments really did drive the lion's share of sales, etc., really did drive new blood, really did drive events, then GW wouldn't touch them, wouldn't cancel them for a year, they'd expand them. The very fact that GW was able to shut down the RTT circuit, and then to shut down the GTs without going out of business means that Tournaments are not so important.

You're the king of the strawmen. Who here actually claimed this? My only point here is that USGT cancellation isn't the end result of a change in marketing strategy centered on Apoc...which IS something you've claimed. But there's no point in arguing with you, because you'll just keep twisting and contorting and claim you're winning.

So yeah, facts are a problem when you've got an agenda to push.

Especially if that agenda is to justify US GTs.

LOL. I actually don't have an agenda here, other than to say your "Apoc has replaced tourneys as a driver of sales" theory likely isn't accurate for multiple reasons. But I'm sure we'll keep seeing it every time you can shoehorn it into a discussion. It's probably time you got a new act.

I've stated my opinion on this before, yes, GW will lose sales due to the lack of GW-sponsored tournies. Sure, it's going to be just a drop in the bucket, but the (IMO) fact remains that hundreds of gamers do (or should I use did, ie past tense?) indeed by GW models just for the GW-sponsored events. I've already cut back personally because I won't be attending a GW-sponsored tourney this year. Sure, I'll attend the Indies as I'm able to, but they do not have that "GW models only" requirement.
And yes, we have a very strong local scene, strong enough that I could play a different gamer every night for three months and still not have played everyone in our group. Storng enough that people wanting to run events are having problems finding an open spot on th calender. Strong enough, well, you get the idea. Point is, few of those events push us to build up a whole new army from scratch. Closest would be the Escalation Leagues, but many of us just use that to play one of our other armies. GTs however, do spur us to build new armies. I'd have to poll the group, but probably half of our 20+ attendees at last year's GT Baltimore built new armies from the ground up just for the GT. And that many probably would have done so again.
So while GW may be changing their marketing strategy and trying to let Apoc drive sales, the loss of the GT and/or GW-sponsored tournies will cause lost sales.
And yes, I believe the lost sales will outweigh the costs of running a GT.......................

"Tournement play brings in very little revenue in comparison to other things that GW does."

So what? They're still very important.

So tournement play can easily be dropped and GW will never miss it? Lets apply that logic to other businesses.

Gas stations dont need carwashes.
Restraunts dont need deserts.
Convenience stores probably dont need to sell bags of ice.
Grocery stores dont need to sell flowers.
Best Buy should probably drop their Book Section and stop selling furniture.
Bars/pubs could probably stop selling wine.
GW can probably stop selling hobby utensils (except there are probably plenty of idiots that still think they are quality items for the price)

...just because Tournement gaming isnt the big money maker for GW, dont kid yourself in trying to convince everyone that it isnt important.

It's a money maker...and a pretty good one that doesnt require a lot of actual "product" to be moved to see the profit. Dropping a "money maker" in these hard times doesnt make any sense regardless of how much income it makes...as long as there is no deficit, anything that makes GW money=win.

Even if Apoc makes more money than tournement play, I ask, what makes more money for GW?

Apoc and no tournement circuit?
OR
Apoc WITH a tournement circuit?

Its not that hard for someone with a grasp on logic to see which choice equalls more $'s for GW.

If there is anyone pushing his agenda here its John. A full wall of text filled with nothing that holds any credibilty just to smudge other pepoles opinions/posts. Really sad that you are allowed this after so many repeted tries to start troll wars here.

The only truth is that GW is pushing their tourneies in Euro and dumping them in the US. If you like official tournies and not some homebrews it seems US isnt the place to be. Pretty much like if you like Apoc, Euro isnt the place to be since it is very small here. (except at HQs). I have no idea if its as big as John sais in the states since it only seems to be his opinion, again backed up with nothin and his agenda seem to props for casual gamers.

Erm, converting models and scratch building is an age old element of the Hobby.

This can only be a good thing, surely?

As for GW dropping US Tournaments, as the OP said the US is well served for Indy Tournaments already, and it is entirely possible that the GW run Tournaments were loss making. If there is an already strong Tournament scene, and people buying armies specifically for said scene, then why take the dent? The scene will continue without you. As for Counts As, I actually find that heartening. Sucks for GW's bottom line, but hey, as I said, is an age old and honoured part of the hobby I am pleased to see is still alive. I had feared Anal Tournament Players had rather killed it. But the beast lives!


Please note, when I mentioned Anal Tournament Players, I am not suggesting or insinuating that all Tournament Players fall into that category. Just that some, inevitably, will try to twist your use of non-GW models to their advantage, which is pathetic behaviour.

If you want to do the numbers, it's a pretty easy formula. Take the number of armies being played at the GT, times the average cost of an army of points cost X and you get the sales revenue generated by holding a GT. Figure in staff, travel, terrain, etc. and go from there. Keep in mind, guys like myself & most of our group, already have massive armies to draw from and at most might spend $100 to 'upgrade' our lists. Do the math and you'll see, the numbers don't justify the expense. Just my 2 cents....

Never mind! My reading comprehension rolled up FAIL.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:As for GW dropping US Tournaments, as the OP said the US is well served for Indy Tournaments already, and it is entirely possible that the GW run Tournaments were loss making.

MDG, I'll give you a pass since you don't know U.S. geography. But the U.S. isn't that well-served by indies. There's no existing big 40K tournament for the NY-Baltimore-Philly-DC area without the Baltimore GT. And that's a *big* chunk of population.

Now, new indy GTs are cropping up to fill the hole. I'm going to be helping out with a new one in the Philly region (The MechaniCon) in November, and it should be a really good event. But make no mistake -- dropping the USGTs left big holes on the map.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The very fact that GW was able to shut down the RTT circuit, and then to shut down the GTs without going out of business means that Tournaments are not so important.

When did GW shut down RTT's in the US? There are plenty of those going on with decent numbers of attendees around the country. Hell Adepticon dwarfs any of the GWUS GT's and that keeps on expanding.

I'm not following the 40k scene, but from what I can tell there are plenty of IndyGT's for 40k just as there are for WHFB.

IMO a "GT" just means 5 games over 2 days and a high number of people in attendance (say 40-50+).

Exactly where and how did the US suddenly start becoming a 40k Apoc zone? People aren't play Apoc games at shops that I see locally, it's all "normal" 40k with the same mix of hard and soft armies that is always there (with more people using hard stuff than not). The only shop I know of that runs regular Apoc events also runs tournaments regularly.

WHFB will never become any kind of game where you can do what you can in Apoc (especially with Objectives, etc) unless you change the game completely from what it is currently. It simply doesn't function in that way. You can play campaigns and all that with WHFB just fine, but people have to try to police lists used since like 40k the armies are becoming more and more unbalanced and the gaps between "good units" and poor ones seems to only be getting wider.

Still, this is entirely separate from the original point of the thread.

I'm not talking about GW's GT's profitability. I'm talking about the fact that there aren't any (or that if they are there, less people want to go to them compared to Indy's), I'm talking about the fact that if I don't want to go to GW Events, and don't care too much about playing in GW Stores (compared to playing at home with friends, or playing at a FLGS that has other ranges), I have less and less reason to buy GW product, or specific expensive GW models to represent the models/units for my army.

Granted this probably is more of a WHFB thing rather than 40k (not in all cases, IG, Chaos, and Demons being the prime examples) since it's so easy to find other products to represent GW models for less than what GW charges, but I think it's definitely an issue going forward.

gorgon wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:As for GW dropping US Tournaments, as the OP said the US is well served for Indy Tournaments already, and it is entirely possible that the GW run Tournaments were loss making.

MDG, I'll give you a pass since you don't know U.S. geography. But the U.S. isn't that well-served by indies. There's no existing big 40K tournament for the NY-Baltimore-Philly-DC area without the Baltimore GT. And that's a *big* chunk of population.

Now, new indy GTs are cropping up to fill the hole. I'm going to be helping out with a new one in the Philly region (The MechaniCon) in November, and it should be a really good event. But make no mistake -- dropping the USGTs left big holes on the map.

Maybe you mean 40k?

I live in the NJ/Philly area and there are 3 large Indy GT's for WHFB a year in the area (Crossroads, Colonial, Conflict), with smaller RTT's going on at various shops throughout the year.

Hmmm. Conspirational thought incoming....

Given that GW stopped doing wholesale to web only stores in the US at the behest of FLGS, could it be possible that this is GW stepping aside with their GT's, in the hope the FLGS can generate some additional income by hosting their own events? When you think about it, whether or not they demand only GW models is irrelevant to them. Throwing a Tournament, particularly a larger one (please note I have *no* idea of the effort involved in running one!) is likely to increase sales in the local area, particularly if you offer a discount to Ticket Holders. Every little helps, as Tesco are so keen to tell us!

Now as has been rightfully established my geographical knowledge of RTT's etc in the States is downright shameful, so measure your scorn appropriately. You are right Voodoo, I was thinking of 40k rather than Fantasy, though I am mildly surprised to see that venues don't run both, but hey ho!

So what do you reckon? Could this be an attempt at giving FLGS a leg up? Could also be a cunning marketing ploy. Withdraw your own GT's, see where replacements spring up, which would give you some idea of gaming populace in said regions, then retarget over the next couple of years?

Howzat! Bizarre conspiracy theory AND paranoia all in one post!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hmmm. Conspirational thought incoming....

Given that GW stopped doing wholesale to web only stores in the US at the behest of FLGS, could it be possible that this is GW stepping aside with their GT's, in the hope the FLGS can generate some additional income by hosting their own events? When you think about it, whether or not they demand only GW models is irrelevant to them. Throwing a Tournament, particularly a larger one (please note I have *no* idea of the effort involved in running one!) is likely to increase sales in the local area, particularly if you offer a discount to Ticket Holders. Every little helps, as Tesco are so keen to tell us!

Now as has been rightfully established my geographical knowledge of RTT's etc in the States is downright shameful, so measure your scorn appropriately. You are right Voodoo, I was thinking of 40k rather than Fantasy, though I am mildly surprised to see that venues don't run both, but hey ho!

So what do you reckon? Could this be an attempt at giving FLGS a leg up? Could also be a cunning marketing ploy. Withdraw your own GT's, see where replacements spring up, which would give you some idea of gaming populace in said regions, then retarget over the next couple of years?

Howzat! Bizarre conspiracy theory AND paranoia all in one post!

I think it's probably safer to bet on the fact that the US economy is in a slump, their Tournament ticket prices have to go up even higher year after year, and the GW US Events team has like 2 full time people or something like that?

MechaniCon in Philly (which I plan to attend!), and the IFL is trying to put together something in the Baltimore area. Just haven't nailed down a date yet. We do intend for it to be both 40K and Fantasy tho, minimum 40 players each side, two days, probably 6 or even 7 games. We're thinking an Iron Man event........ We'll post details once it's all worked out.

As for the Colonial and others, the Fantasy only eventss. Well, I believe it was the Hillbilly in Memphis that has now morphed into the Waaagh, going from Fantasy only to both systems. Maybe we'll see the same happen up here.

If so that'll only be so GW can see where it will be worth their time opening up their own stores in the future....

I believe, from conversations with the UK events team, that the GT's-- "throne of skulls" as they are now called- do ( or did a few years back at least) turn a modest profit usually, but not so much as they do them purely as a direct income stream. At the end of the event they provide you with a little feedback form to fill in-- what was good, bad, indifferent, what would you change etc, usual sort of thing. One of the questions on that was basically asking you if you had spent extra moolah specifically just for this tournament and a rough indication of how much.

I was told when I enquired that the average gamer there had spent, just on models for this event, usually in the region of £40-£50 each. Times that by 450-500 players......

I would say that obviously said data was VERY rough and ready, and was a few years ago.

Most of the players who attend seem to justify/lie to themselves until they weep in the dark early hours of the morning purchasing some extra little trinket whilst they are at WW-- the FW stuff is very popular-- and they seemed to do a roaring trade on any pre release stuff they used to let us buy a week or two early.

Them were the days...

Couldn't say if said level of expenditure is same/better/worse now..... but there were a lot of shiny and new looking drop pods, Land Raiders and Lysanders around the tables this year.