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So, using the New Devildog, and this came up.

I Fire it at a Land Raider that is 11" away, placing the Blast template 11" from the Devildog. I end up Scattering 2" away, but still over the Land Raider.
The End Result is the Blast Ending up 13" away from the Devildog.

My Question is:
Does it get the bonus Melta Dice?

No

sourclams wrote:No

You need to lay off the long-winded answers man. A simple 'no' would have sufficed.

What sourclams said +1.

I disagree with both of the responses above.

What matters with a melta weapon is the range from the firer to the unit being hit, not where the blast marker actually ends up positioned.

If the range from the firer to the unit being hit is under half its maximum range then it gets the extra penetration die.


This is because weapons have a defined range (Pg 27) and the melta rule specifies that you get the bonus die at "half range or less".

Yes, blasts can scatter, but that doesn't change their range. This is made pretty clear because the rules state that blasts can scatter "beyond the weapon's range" (Pg 30). As you can see the blast can scatter but this doesn't change the range of the weapon which is what determines whether or not a melta weapon gets its bonus.

yakface wrote:
I disagree with both of the responses above.

What matters with a melta weapon is the range from the firer to the unit being hit, not where the blast marker actually ends up positioned.

If the range from the firer to the unit being hit is under half its maximum range then it gets the extra penetration die.


This is because weapons have a defined range (Pg 27) and the melta rule specifies that you get the bonus die at "half range or less".

Yes, blasts can scatter, but that doesn't change their range. This is made pretty clear because the rules state that blasts can scatter "beyond the weapon's range" (Pg 30). As you can see the blast can scatter but this doesn't change the range of the weapon which is what determines whether or not a melta weapon gets its bonus.

disagree. the devil dog weapon is a blast weapon. Therefore follows the blast weapon rules as described in sequence on page 30. AT no point is range determined prior to the blast landing and scattering. The blast weapon rule only allows for you to determine if the intial placement of the template is beyond the max range which would be an auto miss. Once a hit or scatter is determined you go to the vehicle rules on page 60. So while weapons have a range. Blast weapons have a particular way they are fired and hits are applied using the center of the template.

This is the difference between a shooting weapon that hits with a BS and a blast weapon dont try to use one rule for another.

I'd happily disagree back (in a limited sort of way).

Melta weapons gain the extra armour pen within a certain range. I can see your point, that the range measured before scatter should be what you use to determine the extra Melta effect. However, your example of maximum range being exceded by scatter isn't necessarily the same thing as distance fired for the extra melta effect.

The Melta rules come into play at armour Pen and at that point the shot would be outside of half range. So at what point are we applying Melta? Melta doesn't affect the shot, or scatter, and when I get to the part of the phase were it does matter, and I answer the question, "is the weapon within half range", the answer is no. I guess you're suggesting something along the lines of "it was within half range before it moved"?

I'd agree completely that the shot hits, there's no doubt about that. I'm just not sure when we want to say Melta takes effect (and when it doesn't).

On a related note...

Does this mean that 4 Melta guns firing at a 3 model vehicle squadron, of which only the fist vehicle is under half, would all be affected with the extra die for armour Pen? Not the same question at all, I realize, but this got me thinking...

What that sounds like is a back door to extend to super-hot kill radius of melta weapons substantially. Again though, it strikes me as odd that you'd roll the extra die for armour Pen and then have to allocate to vehicles outside the range at which that extra die would be in effect. Or, even better, you could be getting that extra die against vehicles that are not only outside half range, but out of range all together.

Sounding odd doesn't mean it doesn't work that way of course. This is GW after all.

sabote wrote:incorrect. the devil dog weapon is a blast weapon. Therefore follows the blast weapon rules as described in sequence on page 30. AT no point is range determined prior to the blast landing and scattering. The blast weapon rule only allows for you to determine if the intial placement of the template is beyond the max range which would be an auto miss. Once a hit or scatter is determined you go to the vehicle rules on page 60. So while weapons have a range. Blast weapons have a particular way they are fired and hits are applied using the center of the template.

This is the difference between a shooting weapon that hits with a BS and a blast weapon dont try to use one rule for another.

So? None of what you stated makes one bit of difference. Melta weapons only get the bonus when the target is within half it's maximum range or less. How you fire the weapon does not change this. So you work out if the target is within half it's maximum range or less after you resolve the shot. Nothing else changes. Stop trying to disregard a rule that has no bearing on how a weapon is shot, but with how far away that the target is.

Ghaz wrote:

sabote wrote:incorrect. the devil dog weapon is a blast weapon. Therefore follows the blast weapon rules as described in sequence on page 30. AT no point is range determined prior to the blast landing and scattering. The blast weapon rule only allows for you to determine if the intial placement of the template is beyond the max range which would be an auto miss. Once a hit or scatter is determined you go to the vehicle rules on page 60. So while weapons have a range. Blast weapons have a particular way they are fired and hits are applied using the center of the template.

This is the difference between a shooting weapon that hits with a BS and a blast weapon dont try to use one rule for another.

So? None of what you stated makes one bit of difference. Melta weapons only get the bonus when the target is within half it's maximum range or less. How you fire the weapon does not change this. So you work out if the target is within half it's maximum range or less after you resolve the shot. Nothing else changes. Stop trying to disregard a rule that has no bearing on how a weapon is shot, but with how far away that the target is.

And how are you determing that range? With what method? Or do you plan on writing your own rule for this?

sabote wrote:

And how are you determing that range? With what method? Or do you plan on writing your own rule for this?

Where exactly is the disagreement stemming from here? I'm honestly a little confused.

With a blast weapon you:

A) confirm you have LOS and place the blast marker over the target unit.
B) check to make sure the center hole is within the maximum range of the weapon.
C) roll for scatter.


In step 'B' while you are checking to make sure the center of the blast is within the weapon's maximum range, the maximum range of the weapon is still the number presented in the weapon's profile.

Melta weapons give a bonus penetration die "when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's Armor Value at half range or less."

So as you can see, for a melta weapon the question is: Is the vehicle at half the weapon's range or not?

The Melta Cannon has a maximum range of 24" so if the vehicle it is hitting is 12" or less from the weapon, then it gets the bonus penetration die.

sabote wrote:And how are you determing that range? With what method? Or do you plan on writing your own rule for this?

And you're writing your own rule that you can never determine if it's within half range. Where is this in the rulebook? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black here. Yak has clearly explained how you do it. Now how about you explaining why you would never measure at all.

yakface wrote:

sabote wrote:

And how are you determing that range? With what method? Or do you plan on writing your own rule for this?

Where exactly is the disagreement stemming from here? I'm honestly a little confused.

With a blast weapon you:

A) confirm you have LOS and place the blast marker over the target unit.
B) check to make sure the center hole is within the maximum range of the weapon.
C) roll for scatter.


In step 'B' while you are checking to make sure the center of the blast is within the weapon's maximum range, the maximum range of the weapon is still the number presented in the weapon's profile.

Melta weapons give a bonus penetration die "when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's Armor Value at half range or less."

So as you can see, for a melta weapon the question is: Is the vehicle at half the weapon's range or not?

The Melta Cannon has a maximum range of 24" so if the vehicle it is hitting is 12" or less from the weapon, then it gets the bonus penetration die.

However your last sentence does not happen because of RAW. You are adding that bit in.

.
Let me throw a devil's advocate in here that might make you rethink this.

I fire my blast melta at a tank that is 11" away at the nearest point of the appropriate facing.

I scatter for crap, 9" farther on to another tank.

By your logic Yak, I'm getting 2d6 penetration because where I originally shot was within 11".

Does that work alright for you?

I say no.

Do the rules have to say "measure it again" to have the melta rule still work as written and interpretted by my camp? No.

Ghaz wrote:

sabote wrote:And how are you determing that range? With what method? Or do you plan on writing your own rule for this?

And you're writing your own rule that you can never determine if it's within half range. Where is this in the rulebook? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black here. Yak has clearly explained how you do it. Now how about you explaining why you would never measure at all.

Hardly I am just doing exatly what page 30 states. You have read the rules of blast weapons right?

No, you're not. You're totally ignoring the part that tells you to actually measure to see if the target is in range after you place the marker. This is when you determine if the target is within half range or less. Nothing in the rules for Blast weapons says you get to ignore the Melta rules. Once you measure, you resolve the rest of the Blast weapon rules and if it hits the target and it's within half range or less you get the bonus for the Melta. They're not exclusive.

Seems fair to just measure from the firing model to the model being fire on.

Yes, you do that when the rules tell you to. That's when you're determining if the marker was placed in range or not.

I would vote no.
My reason being that A) you would measre the range untill the final placment has been found, so .5(24"=12" and 13">12" thus no Melta. 2) in every other blast weapon that depends on final range, Coversion Beam from SM Codex, you check the final range on that AFTER it scatters.

psf3077 wrote:... you would measre the range untill the final placment has been found,

Wrong. Blast weapons measure after placement but before scatter.

psf3077 wrote:... in every other blast weapon that depends on final range, Coversion Beam from SM Codex, you check the final range on that AFTER it scatters.

Melta does not depend on final range. It specifically says half range or less to the target.

I'm with Ghaz and Yakface on this one. It's not that complicated. If the blast scatters but still lands on a vehicle you check to see if the target (not the centre of the blast) is within "melta" range.

@sabote...Therefore for your whole 'devil's advocate' thing, you missed a point. If the blast scatters onto another target you check "melta" range to that new target (again, not to the centre of the blast). Hope this makes it a bit easier to understand.

People seem to havea problem with it due to it possibly ending up over half range, so then come up with convoluted reasons why it wouldnt work.

The rules are clear, as both Yakface and Ghaz have pointed out multiple times: you must check to see if the weapon is within range. At this point you must have determined the variable [distance to target] - at that point the melta rules kick in and you determine if you are in half range or not. Absolutely nothing in the blast rules states you do not do this, so you do.

As mr clams pointed out in a different thread.. if you do get entitled to bonous penetration but then the blast does scatter off of the hull (but still touches it) you hit at 1/2 str which would equate to Str4.

Str4 + 2d6 armor pen @ ap1 is still quite respectable!

I agree that the melta weapon should be countd as within half range, but not exactly for the reason stated. Melta gets added pen if the target is within half range, so we simply measure whether the target is within half range of the weapon or not, the rules do not allow us to measure from the back of the vehicle or the side of the vehicle, we must measure to the nearest part of the vehicle.

Exactly when the melta effect is measured doesnt matter, the distance from the weapon to the vehicle doesnt change during this process. There is nothing in the rules telling us at what time we check the measurement for the melta effect, we do not have to do this at the same time that we measure the blast distance or after the blast scatters.

This does give us the possibility of a melta blast scattering to hit rear or side armor that would be out of range for the boosted melta pen, but that seems the way the raw does it.


Sliggoth

None of this helps determine what this melta blast does when it scatters an hit either other facings of the same vehicle, or a seperate vehicle all together. Are you going to give the blast the extra D6 based on the measurement to the original facing of the original target vehicle? If not then the only other option is to measure after scatter. And if you measure after scatter for one thing then you should probably measure after scatter for everything.

In a qualified sort of way I think that the meaning if the word 'target' might need examining here. If that blast scatters to hit a different facing of the same vehicle, or another vehicle altogether then the 'target' has changed. Or, at the very least, the shot is no longer affecting what it was targetted at. In both these cases it seems correct to measure range after scatter. New target = new range.

An additional issue comes up when that blast scatters, but not far enough to have the center hole off the original target vehicle. The blast does clip a second vehicle which is completely outside of half range. Does that second vehicle also suffer the extra D6, even though, by the rules, there should be no possible way for that to happen?

I am ok with the template getting the extra D6 against the original facing, provided the center of the blast doesn't scatter off the vehicle (except forward to affect the original facing at half strength of course). That part makes perfect sense (now that I consider it further anyway). The rest of it though ... I don't like it.

So if a Razorback unloads 5 Tac Marines from the back end, and I bring my Dog up on its front end such that the nearest point of the Razorback is 11" away, and I position the blast so that the pip is on the rearmost point of the Razorback 14" away and the blast overlaps onto 4 Tac Marines, that's okay and I get 2d6 dice for pen as well as 4 Marines?

Just making sure.

sourclams wrote:So if a Razorback unloads 5 Tac Marines from the back end, and I bring my Dog up on its front end such that the nearest point of the Razorback is 11" away, and I position the blast so that the pip is on the rearmost point of the Razorback and the blast overlaps onto 4 Tac Marines, that's okay and I get 2d6 dice for pen as well as 4 Marines?

Just making sure.

Yes to both. As other haves mentioned Melta cares only distance between the target and shooter. So long as your target, and not necessarily the blast marker, is within half range, you satisfy the Melta bonus dice condition.

Someone earlier mentioned a scenario where if your initial scatter from the original target (that is within 12'') goes to another vehicle beyond 12'', would you then get the bonus dice. The answer here would be no. Even though your declared target is within 12'', the actual hit is to a vehicle beyond 12''. The Melta bonus dice condition would not be satisfied (i.e., the effects of the melta weapon are not being resolved on a target within 12'').

-Yad

I don't think that one template with two seperate (and different) penetration rolls makes any sense at all. That doesn't seem to be in keeping with any part of the rules that I can identify anyway. That would be the result of scattering and hitting a second vehicle (outside half) plus the original vehicle.

Someone's going to have to do some fancy footwork here. The current meme only really works for the original target on the original facing. Everything else is a complete mess (from a rules perspective).

sourclams wrote:So if a Razorback unloads 5 Tac Marines from the back end, and I bring my Dog up on its front end such that the nearest point of the Razorback is 11" away, and I position the blast so that the pip is on the rearmost point of the Razorback and the blast overlaps onto 4 Tac Marines, that's okay and I get 2d6 dice for pen as well as 4 Marines?

Just making sure.

This really isn't any different of a concept as if you are firing a non-melta/non-blast weapon at a vehicle that is just at the very edge of a weapon's range.

For example, say you're firing a Lascannon at the front arc of a vehicle whose is just exactly 47 1/2" away. Of course, you can't see any of the front of the vehicle because it's behind a hill (in this case). As instructed in the rules you're still allowed to fire at the side armor ,with a 3+ cover save of course.

Now the 'side' you're hitting is beyond the maximum range of the weapon, but it doesn't matter. Per the rules you just measure range from the target to the model, where the 'shot' actually 'hits' is irrelevant.

The Melta rules only care if the target you're hitting is at half range or under (which in this case is 12"). Where on the vehicle model the blast actually ends up does not change the range from firer to target.

The Melta rules only care if the target you're hitting is at half range or under (which in this case is 12"). Where on the vehicle model the blast actually ends up does not change the range from firer to target.

It most certainly does change if the blast scatters off the vehicle and hits a different armour facing. That's not the same thing as that Lascannon example at all. I'm not trying to be a pain either, I just don;t think it's the same thing. Same with secon affected vehicles under the same template.

Edit: Post removed as I made a big rules boo-boo. Sorry!

Fenris-77 wrote:

The Melta rules only care if the target you're hitting is at half range or under (which in this case is 12"). Where on the vehicle model the blast actually ends up does not change the range from firer to target.

It most certainly does change if the blast scatters off the vehicle and hits a different armour facing. That's not the same thing as that Lascannon example at all. I'm not trying to be a pain either, I just don;t think it's the same thing. Same with secon affected vehicles under the same template.

Whoops, sorry. I had a 4th edition 'senior' moment there. You are indeed right, in 5th edition if the blast scatters off the vehicle it does count against the armor value based of the center of the blast.

But I still stand by my last example in regards to the Lascannon as when it comes to RANGE all that matters is the distance from the firer to the model being shot at, even if you end up shooting an 'arc' of a vehicle that is out of range it doesn't matter because the rules only care about whether the vehicle as a whole is in range or not.

How about looking at this from a different angle; most weapons have only one damage profile, however, melta weapons have two.
One at half-range and one at above half-range to its max range.

In this case, the melta-cannon has one at 12" (the noted melta rule) and one at 13"-24", its normal weapon damage profile.

Per the blast rules, it is entirely acceptable to scatter beyond a weapon's effective range as long as it was within range to the target to begin with. Its damage effects stay the same to its original weapon damage profile. Now in the case of the melta-cannon, if a target is within the 12" melta-rule range, then it is detemined that the shot will get the bonus D6 AP. If it scatters this shot, the damage profile for the shot will not change because it scattered beyond the effective melta-rule range of 12".....so if it scatters the full-board 9", it should still get the bonus D6 if it hits another vehicle enroute on the scatter.

There is no rule that states that this bonus is removed anywhere in the BRB; since the bonus AP is determined when measuring range for the shot, it doesn't take this away if you scatter.....you either have it or you don't.