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Aldonis wrote:
A lot of it boils down to the interpretation of the Melta rule:

"They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a Vehicle's Armour Value at half range or less."

Is half range at the point of placing the blast or at rolling armor penetration? Both sides have logic behind their thoughts. It's where you put emphasis on the above.

No, no, NO. It does not matter whether you measure before or after the blast scatters.

What matters is that the Melta rule you quoted again commands that what matters is the range to the VEHICLE not to the BLAST. So whether the blast scatters or not is irrelevant. Whether you measure before or after the blast scatters is irrelevant.

The ONE THING you keep ignoring is that the Melta rules ask for the range from the WEAPON to the VEHICLE.

FROM THE WEAPON TO THE VEHICLE.

FROM THE WEAPON TO THE VEHICLE.

FROM THE WEAPON TO THE VEHICLE.

That means measuring the distance between the weapon and the closest point of the vehicle that is being hit (as dictated by the RULES for measuring ranges and distances).

The Melta weapon rules DO NOT CARE where the blast is located. If the vehicle is hit by the blast then you need to measure range from the weapon to the vehicle to determine whether the Melta weapon kicks in. You are NOT, by anything found in the rules, measuring range to the BLAST when dealing with the Melta rule.

This is to you specifically Yakface, and this will require patience and re-reading, this will probably take a while to explain and type out so please bear with me and above all I will represent all my points with quotes from the RB.

Point 1) Under Check Range (pg. 17) "All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically. This is why you have to choose your target before measuring range....When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

Explanation: We are talking about vehicles, and most people measure to the closest part of the hull (as the rule implies with the closest model). So, when shooting we measure to the hull of the vehicle after picking a target as described on page 15. (The shooting Sequence...1) check line of sight & pick a target 2) check range etc....)

Point 2) Under Blast (pg. 30) "Next, check if the shot has landed on target. If the hole at the center of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed."

Explanation: If you noticed I underlined the important parts of each rule, you will note that when shooting a weapon as described under "Check Range" you measure to the nearest model (hull) when checking maximum range or distance, but when using Blast weapons, the RB clearly has a different way to measure if the weapon is beyond its maximum range and that is *not* from the hull but from the center of the blast marker.

The wording is nearly identical except with the difference of measuring from *to* the hull vs. *to* a blast marker to determine range.

Now to the crux of the issue, the dreaded melta rule

As so far it has been argued that the melta rule *clearly* tells us to measure from weapon to the vehicle, and I will show you that is *not* what it says.

Under Melta (pg. 32) "Melta weapons are lethal...blah blah...They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's Armor Value at half range or less (to...?). If the weapon is more than half its maximum range away (to...?), a single D6 is rolled as normal. See the Vehicles rules...blah blah for details on armor penetration."

Explanation: Anything bold I added. My point is that the melta rule only talks about when rolling to penetrate an vehicle's armor (as underlined) and *not* (as bolded) where to measure to. EDIT: The part I underlined seems to be misinterpreted as well. Note: it does *not* tell us to measure to the vehicle. The sentence is telling us is when *rolling* to penetrate...if at half range or less than we add another D6. This is step 4 of the shooting sequence, range is checked on step 2 and whether of not the weapon is at "half range" or not has already been determined during the second step.

I believe that the reason the author left this out is because at the time you **knew** how to measure to the nearest model (or vehicle, will cover this in a minute) on page 19. I submit that this rule tells us where to measure *from* but not **to**. A line has 2 points and this rule only provides us with point A (the weapon) and *not* point B (but it is assumed because the author knows we already read page 19). But as I have shown earlier, that when checking range, Blast weapons are indeed checked differently from normal weapons.

Under Shooting at Vehicles (pg. 60)"If the target vehicle is in range roll to hit as normal. If any hits are scored, roll for each to see if they penetrate the vehicles' Armor Value, as explained next."

Explanation: This is an addition to normal shooting rules which explained how to shoot at infantry. The rule as you can see is identical, except that we measure to the vehicle not just the nearest model as on page 17 (discussed earlier). I underlined in range to point out that this is not a constant, but a variable. Range is indeed checked (as discussed above) either to the vehicle (with normal weapons) or per the blast rule (and that is to the center of the blast marker (initially, as we know the blast can scatter past its maximum range).

Under Template and Blast weapons against vehicles sub-heading the center of the blast marker ends over the vehicle's hull (pg. 60) "blah blah...The armor penetration roll is resolved against the Armor value facing the firer, regardless of the position of the marker...blah blah..."

Explanation: I do believe this line may have led to some confusion. As you can read, *only* when rolling to penetrate do we use the facing of the vehicles (in this case the side that is facing the firer) as the armor value we roll against and *not the point we measure too*, only as the actual armor value we test against.

Conclusion: I submit that according to the difference in which we check range as given to us on page 15 (the Shooting sequence second step) is in fact different between blast weapons and 'normal' weapons. As I have shown when Checking Range. The wording is identical, and the only difference between the 2 was the point where you measure too (blast to the center, normal weapons to the nearest model [hull]).

When making a line we need 2 points. The weapon without refute is the first point. The melta rules clearly do not define the second point. I submit again that this second point is indeed the point in which we reference if the 'shot' is beyond the maximum range (per the second step in the shooting sequence). And this point (shot) is measured differently as noted earlier.

My final assessment is according to what I read, that we do indeed have to measure to the center of the blast as the melta rule does not define where to measure to, and only the rules for checking ranges (which again are different from normal and blast weapons) does.

I know many if not all of you will discount this because we are all about being right, but I submit these findings to at least show that there is a marginal reason why a few of us believe that solely measuring between weapon and vehicle is only a measuring device for normal weapons as laid out on page 17 (Check Range).

I further believe that RAW would put us at measuring to the center of the blast marker (but before scattering) as the means to determine "half range or less" for the melta rule. But when the blast scatters, and even to a new target, then what? This I imagine is up to debate. And even a house rule would be appropriate to settle that and this dispute as the explanation I covered does not cover all eventualities, and in fact Yakface's and others method may in fact be the best as it is straight forward and consistently simple. But not 100% covered by the rules from what I have read.

I am not arguing for or against. I think this is an interesting subject, and just wanted to point out what the rules *actually say* on the subject.

Its a shame you are wrong and Yakface is right then huh?

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Its a shame you are wrong and Yakface is right then huh?

mindless trolling with absolutely no attempt to to present an idea or a rational input that would further an *adult* conversation.

That is the real shame...

How is it trolling? I am pointing out my view on the subject. Just because I am not as articulate as you I am a troll?

Yakface has already shown that the Blast and melta Rules do not interact with each other. Once you determine what vehicle is hit by the bast, you measure to the closest point to see if it in melta range, ya know, like the rules say.

Very well stated Padixon......

It's not cut and dried - it's subject to interpretation.......

Padixon, you are skipping a step in the rules.

You don't go from measuring range to blast hole to make sure the shot isn't a miss straight to rolling for armor penetration, which is where the melta rules come in.

The step you are skipping is the vehicle rules on page 60. Use blast rules, then if you have landed the template on a vehicle use vehicles rules for blast hits. That will give you final resolution of the hit. At the final resolution of the hit, the blast marker is effectively discarded; you input the location of the blast marker to the rules on page 60, what comes out is the final hit resolution on the vehicle.

Move on to armor penetration, which would measure to wherever the page 60 rules tell you that you have hit. See the difference?

Kaaihn wrote:Padixon, you are skipping a step in the rules.

You don't go from measuring range to blast hole to make sure the shot isn't a miss straight to rolling for armor penetration, which is where the melta rules come in.

The step you are skipping is the vehicle rules on page 60. Use blast rules, then if you have landed the template on a vehicle use vehicles rules for blast hits. That will give you final resolution of the hit. At the final resolution of the hit, the blast marker is effectively discarded; you input the location of the blast marker to the rules on page 60, what comes out is the final hit resolution on the vehicle.

Move on to armor penetration, which would measure to wherever the page 60 rules tell you that you have hit. See the difference?

I know where you are headed with this but, we must follow the Shooting sequence as laid out on page 15. And the only time you measure during this whole process is on step 2: "check range" Which reads "At least one target must be within range of the weaponry of your firing models."

This is the *only* time we measure during this 6 step process. The Blast rules however has different rules for steps 2. and 3. (Check range and rolling to hit, respectively) This is the time to measure (on step 2) once that is done, then you continue with the shooting sequence and from that point on, you are done with measuring. The step you are referring to is step 4. (rolling to wound/penetrate) at this point we are already done with measuring as this was already accomplished, and the max range of the weapon and hence half range is already determined.

My point is that the Melta rule is in reference to step 2. When determine if your weapon is within maximum range and because of the special melta rule if the weapon is within half it's maximum range.

I underlined that portion of the rule to show that the range of the weapon you are checking *is* weapon dependent. And Blast weapons do measure range per the "Check Range" step differently than 'normal' weapons. And it is this step in my reading that is the step in determining max and half range for the melta rule, not after as their is no measuring after. And as you have read above, Blast weapons measure to a different point than normal weapons.

So once you do check range (step 2), every thing after that is done without measuring as per the Shooting Sequence on page 15.

Edit: And I already included that quote on page 60 in my earlier mini-essay. There is no measuring rules at all covered in the "Shooting at Vehicles" section besides in the very beginning of the section on the second paragraph (again, it was quoted above). The only thing covered in that entire section is how to resolve shots that landed on vehicles (for blast weapons). Again, this is done *after* you already measured. There is nothing in the blast rules for vehicles that call for a separate measurement of any kind. And the melta rules are in reference when checking for max range which is (again) accomplished in step 2.

Thank you for bringing this up, as I believe it helps clear the air a bit more on the subject at hand.

EDIT again: I have no problem with anyone refuting my findings. I put some time into this, and have laid out the points with actual quotes and page numbers. It would be appreciated if someone would find quotes that counter my arguments. So far what may end up in the "up to interpretation" bin is the assumption that checking the melta special rule is done in step 2. (I believe that it is because it references its rule to when you check your max range and this is done in step 2, which is what brought me to write all this down in the first place).

Lets go step by step with an example using the sequence chart you mention, it might clear some things up.

Step by step laid out using the firing sequence from page 15:

1. Check Line of Sight and pick a target

I choose my melta blast weapon, targeting the rhino that is straight on in front of me.

2. Check Range

I measure and the closest point of the hull (the front face, in this case) of the rhino is 10" away. 10" being within the half range of this melta weapon, I will get 2D6 penetration instead of one if I hit.

3. Roll to Hit

-I place the template one inch in on the rhino, which is 11" from me.
-I then roll scatter and deduct my BS, I get a result of three; the scatter arrow is pointing directly away from me.
-I move the template three inches straight back. Instead of it being centered about on the round hatches, it is towards the rear of the long doors that are on top. I finish the blast rules by measuring to insure the hole of the template has not fallen outside the weapons max range.
-I consult the table on page 60 to get the final hit resolution for blasts against vehicle. This table tells me that since the hole of the template is on the hull, the shot has "hit the vehicle". "Resolve using the AV facing the firer".
-Time to roll to wound, or in the case of a vehicle, penetrate armour. What am I penetrating? The vehicle I hit. How far away is the vehicle I hit? 10".
Note that even if you argue that you should be measuring melta at this step instead of step 2, you are still going to measure to what you hit. What you hit is "the vehicle". Not "the rear upper decking area of the vehicle". So the measurement if you make it again here to what you hit is going to give the same result as you got in step 2.

4. Take saving throws

and on from there.

ahhh, I see...

This is where we separate in our interpretations of step 2 in relation to Blast weapons.

When you shoot your Leman Russ battle cannon at a group of enemy troops, do you measure first to the closest model...then go to step 3 and place the template and measure again to check max range again?

No, of course not. The only time we check range with blast weapons is when we pick a target (step 1) and then place the blast marker down and (step 2) measure to its center to check range

Then Step 3. Roll to scatter and determine who is hit

Step 4, roll to wound
Step 5, take saving throws
Step 6, remove casualties

Your interpreting (from what I can gather) that you make 2 measurements every time you shoot a blast weapon, one to the target, then the next to the blast marker. Which is not in line with the rules.

The **only** ( I can not stress this enough) time the shooting sequence calls for a measurement is during the "Check Range" rule. If you read the check range rule (no need, I quoted it above); the rule does not follow the rule for blast weapons, as the blast weapon rule has it's own method for checking range.

I do believe there may be a "hic-up" in the rules however. You may in fact need to measure twice when shooting all blast weapons. Once as called upon in the "Check range" rule, then again in the "blast" rule. We may very well have been playing it wrong all these years, but I doubt it. I do believe that the blast rules "check range" does replace the 'normal' "Check range" rule.

EDIT: What I mean to say, is the melta rules *do not* call for any extra measurements, only ever is one measurement is ever called for, and that is step 2 (check range) which there are different rules for (template weapons, normal weapons, and blast weapons)

EDIT again: And we must remember the "Measuring Distances" rule on page 3. in general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it." Again, the only time in the shooting sequence we are allowed to measure is step 2, and from what I can gather the Blast rule for checking max range replaces the normal way, unless we are supposed to always make 2 measurements to fulfill both rules, but I doubt that, and the melta rule calls for no extra measurement.

padixon wrote:EDIT again: And we must remember the "Measuring Distances" rule on page 3. in general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it." Again, the only time in the shooting sequence we are allowed to measure is step 2, and from what I can gather the Blast rule for checking max range replaces the normal way, unless we are supposed to always make 2 measurements to fulfill both rules, but I doubt that, and the melta rule calls for no extra measurement.

Yesh, you measue the distance in step 2, which was 11". It doesnt matter how far it scatters, it was 11".

Yes, That is exactly right Waaaaaagh! (I think I misspelled your handle lots of a's, lol)

Like I typed earlier, the RAW comes to the conclusion that the the measurement to the blast hole (before scattering) would be the measurement you would use for determining melta range (max or half range).

The problem, is that it is not practical. Because RAW does not deal with when the shot scatters to a different target. I do believe that a 'second' measurement must be made at that point. How that measurement is made is up to discussion that I am not prepared to go into.

But the initial idea that 2 measurements (one to the hull, and the next to the blast marker) is not called for in the rules as the melta rule itself is (in my firm belief) in reference to step 2 (check range) and not a measurement on its own. However, I can see this easily being housed ruled to allow a firm set of rules that is usable in every situation, and one that makes a lot of sense to boot.

Yes, that is exactly what you are supposed to be doing.

When using a blast weapon, the placement of the blast template starts at step 3. Per the blast rules of page 30, "When firing a blast weapon, do not roll to hit, instead just pick one model visible and place the blast marker over the base of the target model."

Roll to hit is step three of the firing sequence. You have already declared your target (step 1), and measured to verify the target is in range of the weapon (step 2). Here is where people are typically using a rule wrong. Read the rules on measuring range on page 3. "When measuring between units, use the closest models".

When measuring range, you can only measure from closest to closest. So for a unit of infantry, I can only measure to the closest model. If that model is in range, I can place the template on any model I want in the unit I have LOS to, but if I put the template on a model different from the one I measured to, I don't know exactly how far away I have just put that template because I wasn't allowed to measure to any but the closest model. This is why you have to make a check after placing the template; if you ended up putting it out of max range, you automatically missed. This is the abstract concept people are confusing. This check doesn't change the range to the unit, it is an artificial check to make sure you didn't make yourself miss when trying to get better placement.

Page 30 is crystal clear in that you measure for range to the unit in step 2, and then place the template as your step 3. Placing the template means placing it, measuring to insure you are still in range, then rolling scatter. The miss check does not become the range to the unit, the range to the unit is still what you measured in step 2.

Kaaihn wrote:
When measuring range, you can only measure from closest to closest. So for a unit of infantry, I can only measure to the closest model. If that model is in range, I can place the template on any model I want in the unit I have LOS to, but if I put the template on a model different from the one I measured to, I don't know exactly how far away I have just put that template because I wasn't allowed to measure to any but the closest model. This is why you have to make a check after placing the template; if you ended up putting it out of max range, you automatically missed.

Page 30 is crystal clear in that you measure for range to the unit in step 2, and then place the template as your step 3. Placing the template means placing it, measuring to insure you are still in range, then rolling scatter.

Re-read the order of events for blast weapons. You do NOT measure distance after scatter. You measure it once before placing the template, and once after placing it, and that's it.

"...Pick one enemy model visible to he firer and place the blast marker with it's hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if its a vehicle" then next paragraph "Next, check if the shot has landed on target. If the hole at the center of the marker is beyond the weapon's maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed"

According to your description, you may only place blast markers on the closest model unless you want to place it on a different model in the same unit, then you have to make a different measurement? I do not believe that is how it is supposed to be played out.

I do agree however (and good of you that you brought it up) that the phrase "...models do not roll to hit..." does indeed reference step 3. But doing this would force 2 measurements (one to check range to closest model, and the other to the blast marker) that no one ever does. And this may in fact be a writer 'goof-up' and the author was just 'generalizing' that blast weapons have different rules, but my caveat would be that what I am typing is indeed RAI and not RAW. I mean honestly, do any of us measure twice like this? And I can hardly believe that it was intended that way. Again I think the intended way to play was always with just one measurement to the blast marker. Again great catch Kaaihn as you have me calling on RAI to try to explain a situation in which would result in us having to change how we shoot all of our blast weapons.

Kaaihn, you have just shot the first hole in my RAW stance. Good call

EDIT: This way would also lead many players to think you are pre-measuring for a more accurate shot for a weapon you believe my be out of range from the guy in the middle of the mob, so you measure to the front gut (lol, just to be sure)....But as it looks this idea is supported by the Shooting sequence and the fact the author decided to put the placing of the blast marker on step 3 of the rules *after* the Check range step...dubious is what many people may view it as.

Lets say that you shoot a Missile Launcher at its maximum range, 48". It then scatters backwards 6" leaving it 54 inches away from the model. Is the model not allowed to count the shot since it scattered out of the weapons maximum range? Its almost the same question. It the range to the vehicle, if the blast scatters, it doesn't matter. From what people are saying, if the scatters ends up 13 inches away, then it counts as being 13" away, then wouldn't the missile that scattered to 54" not be able to be shot since it is "out of range"? You measure from where it starts, the scatter doesn't matter, its from the vehicles gun.

You can't argue with Yakface on this. And Padixon, you deserve to get trolled. If you continue a point that is wrong, you yourself are trolling. It doesn't matter whether you think that "subject to interpretation" is right. If I think the world is square the you say the world is round, well its subject to interpritaion. We all know that the world is round because of facts, Yak layed out facts to you are you argued, then you kept with your point and kept going even though your wrong (which I could due with the world is square). Although its good that you stuck to your point, you are still arguing something wrong = trolling... Like my world example, I could argue all day that the world is square and I would still be wrong, but by making it into an argument that is dumb and pointless = trolling.

You obviously didn't read all my posts, because I covered your first paragraph entirely in the post right below Yakface's last one, so please re-read if you feel any of my points are in error, and if they are please help yourself in refuting them, but please use the RB with page numbers at a minimum, so I can follow it, and quotes if you can.

And this is *not* Yakface is the inquisition, and arguing with him = trolling as you have laid out in your second paragraph. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you have nothing to input than ignore it and move on.

I respect your opinion that this subject has covered all the basis, but after following it, I found a base line yet undiscovered and laid it out in the same post which you apparently have not read in entirely as per your first paragraph.

EDIT: As you can see, other posters have commented on my points and I have answered them in kind with as much proof as I can muster and with as much professionalism that is possible in a written forum environment. I seriously do not see this as trolling, as the word infers a someone that insults and starts 'flame wars' with the intent to create an environment that is about personal bashing and not about the subject at hand. Is this what you think I am aiming to do? [This is a rhetorical question, no need to answer]

I would like for this to stay on topic please, and I implore others to take a look at the points laid out and refute them, as if I am not seeing the 'right' answer, then I am in need of YMDC as the OP was.

padixon wrote:According to your description, you may only place blast markers on the closest model unless you want to place it on a different model in the same unit, then you have to make a different measurement? I do not believe that is how it is supposed to be played out.

This is exactly how you are supposed to use blast templates, by RAW. You measure to the closest model only, but you can place the template on any model in that unit you have LOS to. You then measure to make sure you didn't drop it out of max range.

padixon wrote:I do agree however (and good of you that you brought it up) that the phrase "...models do not roll to hit..." does indeed reference step 3. But doing this would force 2 measurements (one to check range to closest model, and the other to the blast marker) that no one ever does. And this may in fact be a writer 'goof-up' and the author was just 'generalizing' that blast weapons have different rules, but my caveat would be that what I am typing is indeed RAI and not RAW. I mean honestly, do any of us measure twice like this? And I can hardly believe that it was intended that way. Again I think the intended way to play was always with just one measurement to the blast marker. Again great catch Kaaihn as you have me calling on RAI to try to explain a situation in which would result in us having to change how we shoot all of our blast weapons.

You are correct in that many people do not do this. Those many people are not playing by the rules. I don't even do it properly myself, and neither has anyone I have ever played; the only reason this second measurement exists functionally is tied to being able to miss if you put your template out of range. Think about it, if you are allowed to measure to anywhere in a unit, how can you put your template out of range unless you are just drunk or stupid? Most people short cut blast shooting and negate the miss if out of range step.

padixon wrote:EDIT: This way would also lead many players to think you are pre-measuring for a more accurate shot for a weapon you believe my be out of range from the guy in the middle of the mob, so you measure to the front gut (lol, just to be sure)....But as it looks this idea is supported by the Shooting sequence and the fact the author decided to put the placing of the blast marker on step 3 of the rules *after* the Check range step...dubious is what many people may view it as.

If anyone questions you playing like this, just show them the rulebook. Its crystal clear that this is how shooting with a blast template works. There is no room for interpretation that you measure in step two, and then measure just to check if you have placed out of range in step three for blast templates. You can either play it safe and put your template on the closest guy that you know the distance to, or you can risk dropping it out of range if you put it deeper in to the unit.

With how the shooting rules actually function covered, we can easily move on to the original questions.

If you hit the vehicle, you have hit the hull. Even if you miss and hit the side with shrapnel, you are still resolving a hit on the hull of the vehicle. Use the range check rules to determine distance to that hull, apply melta. You will know the range already from step 2 if the vehicle was your target. If it scattered to another vehicle, you will have to take a new measurement. Melta tells you that you get an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicle at half range or less. This covers what happens if you scatter to another vehicle. If you scatter to a vehicle other than the one you targeted, you will have to verify the range, which would be a measurement from the firer to the closest point of that vehicles hull, regardless of where the template lands on the vehicle.

Quick point to what a couple people have mentioned: If the the blast marker scatters onto an entirely different vehicle then THAT new vehicle is the target and it is from that vehicle to the firing weapon that the melta measurement is made.

Why is there an assumption that the melta rule doesnt call for a measurement? It specifically tells us that the melta effect only works at half range, so one would think that would require a measurement to the target at that point. The melta rule doesnt care in the slightest if it was from a blast or a direct fire melta gun.

The only measurement that was made previously was to see if the target was within range. If a blast scatters, then we now have no idea what the range to the new location might be. And if the new location is on top of an entirely new vehicle? This is why the melta rule would then require a measurement, we need to measure to the target after the scatter because we may have a brand new target.


Part of what we need to remember is that in 40k we seldom treat blast markers logically, consider:


F A B


Unit F fires a blast weapon at unit A. If the blast marker scatters onto unit B, then unit B gets a cover save. Why? We know that the shell landed amongst unit B, and explodes there. We know that none of unit A is in any way able to absorb some of the blast or shrapnel from the blast. We know that unit A didnt deflect the blast away from where it landed, because we know precicely where it did indeed land. But still unit B gets a cover save because the rules tell us that they do.....


The melta rules are similar in that they also only measure from the fired weapon to the target, they dont care about the blast marker either.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Quick point to what a couple people have mentioned: If the the blast marker scatters onto an entirely different vehicle then THAT new vehicle is the target and it is from that vehicle to the firing weapon that the melta measurement is made.

Why is there an assumption that the melta rule doesnt call for a measurement? It specifically tells us that the melta effect only works at half range, so one would think that would require a measurement to the target at that point. The melta rule doesnt care in the slightest if it was from a blast or a direct fire melta gun.

The only measurement that was made previously was to see if the target was within range. If a blast scatters, then we now have no idea what the range to the new location might be. And if the new location is on top of an entirely new vehicle? This is why the melta rule would then require a measurement, we need to measure to the target after the scatter because we may have a brand new target.


Part of what we need to remember is that in 40k we seldom treat blast markers logically, consider:


F A B


Unit F fires a blast weapon at unit A. If the blast marker scatters onto unit B, then unit B gets a cover save. Why? We know that the shell landed amongst unit B, and explodes there. We know that none of unit A is in any way able to absorb some of the blast or shrapnel from the blast. We know that unit A didnt deflect the blast away from where it landed, because we know precicely where it did indeed land. But still unit B gets a cover save because the rules tell us that they do.....


The melta rules are similar in that they also only measure from the fired weapon to the target, they dont care about the blast marker either.


Sliggoth

1. My assumption that the melta rule does not come call for it's own measurement is because it is done when checking to see if the range to a point is within half it's maximum range, and checking maximum range is already accomplished in step 2 while the rule is all about rolling for penetration in step 4. I have already covered this in an above post though.

2. The blast rules has its own rules for measurement which is all covered under it's own section which calls for a measurement to check maximum range to the blast marker (before scatter, again already covered in a post above) and again after the scatter from the original point to the new point.

3. All your other points are however valid, because it seems that blast rule takes place after already checking range to the nearest model, and then a second measurement to the actual Blast marker according to RAW at least.

Sliggoth wrote:This isnt quite correct. The rules for the blast actually contradict themselves a bit on determining where the force of the blast is coming from.

1) If a blast marker scatters off the target you are quite correct that the str of the weapon is cut in half and applied to the closest face of the vehicle.

2) If the firer is aiming at the front of the vehicle, but the blast scatters elsewhere onto the vehicle then the front armor of the vehicle is hit by the blast. No matter where on the vehicle the blast marker scatters this is the case. Even if the marker scatters so that its almost entirely off of the back end of the vehicle, it hits the front armor. So in this case the location of the blast marker doesnt matter a bit, as long as part of the hole is over the vehicle, the shot hits the front face of the vehicle.

So point 2 argues that indeed you need to use the closest part of the hull facing to determine the melta effect, since that what you are hitting. While if you miss the vehicle point 1 argues that you need to use the distance to the blast marker to determine the melta effect.

So if the blast marker raw is taken into consideration we have contradictory results. One situation demands that we measure to the actual blast marker location, the other demands that we do not measure to the blast marker location. Perhaps one could argue that the melta effect should then be measured to the closest part of the vehicle if the hole is over the vehicle, but if the hole missed then it should be measured to the blast marker itself. That would seem to be what the blast marker rules are saying.



Or since the blast marker rules contradict themselves we could simply use the melta rules as is, measure from the weapon to the vehicle.


Sliggoth


So using the location of the blast marker arguement seems to not be helpful

Wrong melta is only to the side it is hitting so if it scatters 4 inches off to the opposite side but the corner is still touching one side of the vehicle, that side is hit and measured from. in the rules it states if the melta weapon is 12 inches from the armour you are hitting not from where the shot is.





-Orkishly

orkishlyorkish wrote:Wrong melta is only to the side it is hitting so if it scatters 4 inches off to the opposite side but the corner is still touching one side of the vehicle, that side is hit and measured from. in the rules it states if the melta weapon is 12 inches from the armour you are hitting not from where the shot is.





-Orkishly

Nowhere does it state which side. It simply states to the target.

Ah, but you see Padixon, step 2 doesnt actually check to see that the target is within range. Step 2 checks to see that the initial placement of the blast marker is within range, but the problem is that the blast marker may then scatter. And it may quite likely scatter onto an entirely new target.

F..............A


.........B


If the blast marker is placed on A, but then scatters over onto B we have no idea on what the distance is between F (the firing unit) and B (the actual target unit). So since we have never had to make a measurement of the actual range as of yet, the melta rule will indeed require a measurement. B may be closer, farther or the same distance as A...but we have not made a measurement until we hit the melta rule. Its quite possible for target B to beyond the range of the weapon entirely and still get hit, the rules allow for this.

@ork I wwnt through this in an earlier post. If the small hole is anywhere over the target then the armor side facing the firing unit is used, even if the hole is just barely catching the edge of the far side of the armor. If the hole is not over the target then the nearest face is used. But both of these rules only deal with the str of the blast, the melta rule is soley concerned with the range to the target itself, not any special part of the target.


Sliggoth

padixon wrote:

2. The blast rules has its own rules for measurement which is all covered under it's own section which calls for a measurement to check maximum range to the blast marker (before scatter, again already covered in a post above) and again after the scatter from the original point to the new point.

There is no place in the sequence or blast rules where you are told to measure after the scatter.

orkishlyorkish wrote:Wrong melta is only to the side it is hitting so if it scatters 4 inches off to the opposite side but the corner is still touching one side of the vehicle, that side is hit and measured from. in the rules it states if the melta weapon is 12 inches from the armour you are hitting not from where the shot is.

This is incorrect Orkish. A hit to a vehicle is a hit to the hull. Melta gives you an extra D6 of penetration if within half range. Regardless of what armor facing you say it hits, it is still a hit to the hull. Use standard range measuring rules to determine the range to the hull of the vehicle you hit.

If that range is half or less of the melta weapon, you get the extra D6.

This is the abstract hit process that many people are having trouble separating from true LOS. Remember if you hit a unit with a blast template, the final result would tally at targeting unit x, hitting y models in that unit. Your opponent then gets to allocate y wounds anywhere in the unit. This is because the actual physical location of the template is representative, not literal. Same thing for vehicles. Whether the template lands on the right rear corner or dead center on the front, it is just considered a hit to the unit. Nothing more specific than that. The location of the template is irrelevant once you determine what the final location actually means.

Kaaihn wrote:

padixon wrote:

2. The blast rules has its own rules for measurement which is all covered under it's own section which calls for a measurement to check maximum range to the blast marker (before scatter, again already covered in a post above) and again after the scatter from the original point to the new point.

There is no place in the sequence or blast rules where you are told to measure after the scatter.

I meant after the scatter roll, you measure from the original point to the scattered point

Kaaihn wrote:

padixon wrote:

2. The blast rules has its own rules for measurement which is all covered under it's own section which calls for a measurement to check maximum range to the blast marker (before scatter, again already covered in a post above) and again after the scatter from the original point to the new point.

There is no place in the sequence or blast rules where you are told to measure after the scatter.

Thought I could leave it alone, but I can't resist...

Kaaihn, you are completely correct. What I would encourage everyone to do that still believes melta is dependant upon the distance to the blast marker and not vehicle, is to read through the blast marker rules again. Once you have a clear understanding of them, read the melta rule. You'll see that Melta, in no way, shape, or form, cares about the blast marker. It only cares about the distance between the melta weapon and vehicle that is hit. Furthermore, melta doesn't even care about what side of the vehicle is hit. Read the RAW to see for yourself.

Here's a summation of what will probably be a typical scenario using the melta-cannon:

1. Player 1 declares that he is firing the Devildog at Player 2's vehicle. Player 1 places the blast template so that the center hole is above the target vehicle.

2. Player 1 measures the distance between the melta-cannon and the center hole of the placed template. If the template is within the maximum range of the melta-cannon, the shot is allowed (i.e., is not an auto-miss) and Player 1 will then role the scatter dice.
2a. Player 1 measures to the center hole and discovers that the template is 14'' away from the melta cannon.

3. Player 1 rolls for scatter as normal (2d6-BS & Scatter die).

In this scenario, let's say that the player rolled a 'hit', and the template did not move. Though we could just as easily say it was a scatter with a low scatter roll (i.e., staying on the same vehicle)

4. Because the template has melta properties, Player 1 reads the RAW for Melta and finds that, if the vehicle (NOT THE MARKER) is within half of the maximum range of the weapon (irrespective of side), he gets additional dice to roll for AP.
4a. The only way that Player 1 can know this is to now measure to the closest point of hit vehicle's hull. He measures and discovers that the vehicle is 11'' away.

5. Player 1 now roles for Armour Penetration getting bonus dice from the melta rule.

The only time you ever get to measure to the blast marker is to see if it is within the maximum range of the weapon that fired it. You may not like this, but this is follows RAW. You may think of some additional scenarios where this would allow you to roll bonus AP dice when you think you should not be able to, but ultimately, these are the RAW.

-Yad

padixon wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

padixon wrote:

2. The blast rules has its own rules for measurement which is all covered under it's own section which calls for a measurement to check maximum range to the blast marker (before scatter, again already covered in a post above) and again after the scatter from the original point to the new point.

There is no place in the sequence or blast rules where you are told to measure after the scatter.

I meant after the scatter roll, you measure from the original point to the scattered point

No, you don't do that. There is nothing in the rules whatsoever that tells you to take a measurement to the scattered point.

There is no further measurement to the blast template after rolling the scatter die, ever.

The closest you can come to this would be to say that if, due to scatter, you score a hit on a vehicle different from the one you already have the range measurement to, you will have to take a new measurement to that vehicle to determine if you are in half range for melta. That is measuring to the vehicle though, not to the blast template and doesn't look to be what you were referring to anyway.

Yad wrote:
Here's a summation of what will probably be a typical scenario using the melta-cannon:

You are right on in saying this is probably typical; this is one of the typical descriptions of doing it wrong in some steps.

Yad wrote:1. Player 1 declares that he is firing the Devildog at Player 2's vehicle. Player 1 places the blast template so that the center hole is above the target vehicle.

A step got skipped here already. Player 1 should measure to the closest point of his target, THEN he places the blast anywhere on the hull of the vehicle.

Yad wrote:2. Player 1 measures the distance between the melta-cannon and the center hole of the placed template. If the template is within the maximum range of the melta-cannon, the shot is allowed (i.e., is not an auto-miss) and Player 1 will then role the scatter dice.

Yes.

Yad wrote:2a. Player 1 measures to the center hole and discovers that the template is 14'' away from the melta cannon.

No. (Assuming this 14" measurement is for melta?) You make one measurement after placing the template, which is only to make sure it hasn't been placed outside maximum range.

Yad wrote:3. Player 1 rolls for scatter as normal (2d6-BS & Scatter die).

In this scenario, let's say that the player rolled a 'hit', and the template did not move. Though we could just as easily say it was a scatter with a low scatter roll (i.e., staying on the same vehicle)

Yes.

Yad wrote:4. Because the template has melta properties, Player 1 reads the RAW for Melta and finds that, if the vehicle (NOT THE MARKER) is within half of the maximum range of the weapon (irrespective of side), he gets additional dice to roll for AP.
4a. The only way that Player 1 can know this is to now measure to the closest point of hit vehicle's hull. He measures and discovers that the vehicle is 11'' away.

Mostly correct. You know this measurement from the first step you skipped, which is step two of the firing sequence on page 15. The exception is if you scattered to a different vehicle than the one you measured to in step two; in that case, take a new measurement as the rules calls for.

Yad wrote:5. Player 1 now roles for Armour Penetration getting bonus dice from the melta rule.

The only time you ever get to measure to the blast marker is to see if it is within the maximum range of the weapon that fired it. You may not like this, but this is follows RAW. You may think of some additional scenarios where this would allow you to roll bonus AP dice when you think you should not be able to, but ultimately, these are the RAW.

Exactly.

@Kaaihn:

Are you absolutely sure you measure to the closest point on the targeted vehicle's hull prior to placing the blast marker? I only say this, because, until this point, I was 100% certain you place the marker first, and then check to see if you are within the max range of the weapon that fired it.

For what I was writing, my #2 was a description of the rule action taken, 2a. was what happens in the scenario I was outlining. So there really is only 1 roll made.

He was following the rules for shooting - essentially the blast marker measure (to see if outside max range) is in addition to, not replacing, the measure closest - closest

In the end it doesnt matter whether you measure before finalising the target or not: as long as you measure from firer to target to determine if within half range you have satisfied the melta requirements.