Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Kaaihn:
In fact, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that you can't measure first, place second. This would give the shooter an unfair advantage when placing blast markers. Unfortunately, I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment to confirm.

If I measure first (knowing I'm well out of melta bonus dice range), and I discover that the closest point is 23.5'' away. I now know that if I place the melta .6'' away from the closest point, it is an auto-miss and I can't roll for scatter. I fairly certain you need to place first and then check to see if you're within range.

-Yad

Yad wrote:@Kaaihn:

Are you absolutely sure you measure to the closest point on the targeted vehicle's hull prior to placing the blast marker? I only say this, because, until this point, I was 100% certain you place the marker first, and then check to see if you are within the max range of the weapon that fired it.

For what I was writing, my #2 was a description of the rule action taken, 2a. was what happens in the scenario I was outlining. So there really is only 1 roll made.

Absolutely double decker sure with sprinkles on top.

Unless there is an FAQ to contradict the rulebook, blast rules kick in at step three of the shooting sequence. Step two is measure range.

Yad wrote:@Kaaihn:
In fact, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that you can't measure first, place second. This would give the shooter an unfair advantage when placing blast markers. Unfortunately, I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment to confirm.

If I measure first (knowing I'm well out of melta bonus dice range), and I discover that the closest point is 23.5'' away. I now know that if I place the melta .6'' away from the closest point, it is an auto-miss and I can't roll for scatter. I fairly certain you need to place first and then check to see if you're within range.

-Yad

You're thinking follows the way most people play it, but the RAW clearly shows blast rules begin at step three of the shooting sequence.

Step 1: Check line of sight and pick a target
Step 2: Check range
Step 3: Roll to hit

Blast rules: When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead...

Use blast rules in place of step 3.

Most people play blast rules wrong, don't feel bad. I do it wrong most of the time myself. Sometimes doing it the common wrong way cheats yourself, sometimes it cheats your opponent. If both are doing it that way, it can work out fairly even. You have to understand how it properly works though to determine interactions with other things like Melta.

You get to measure from closest shooter to closest enemy model in a targeted unit. You have the option of placing the template elsewhere within LOS of that unit, but its risk for reward. If you want to get the reward of a different location, you risk a small guess. If you guess wrong, you missed. You can always play it safe and put the template on the guy you measured to though. Scatter roll then happens, so you may end up not hitting anything regardless.

I am extremely surprised this thread has gone on for this long! I think yakface answered this inquiry quite well with this:

yakface wrote:With a blast weapon you:

A) confirm you have LOS and place the blast marker over the target unit.
B) check to make sure the center hole is within the maximum range of the weapon.
C) roll for scatter.

In step 'B' while you are checking to make sure the center of the blast is within the weapon's maximum range, the maximum range of the weapon is still the number presented in the weapon's profile.

Melta weapons give a bonus penetration die "when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's Armor Value at half range or less."

So as you can see, for a melta weapon the question is: Is the vehicle at half the weapon's range or not?

The Melta Cannon has a maximum range of 24" so if the vehicle it is hitting is 12" or less from the weapon, then it gets the bonus penetration die.

I can not see any issue with this, except perhaps in a case where where the blast lands on the vehicle, and drawing a line to that point, it changes the distance from weapon to vehicle enough to influence, but then I would say we would be getting overly anal retentive and would be diverting back to 3rd or 4th (I forget now when which changed it) where if the round rolled out of line of sight and/or range it would magically disappear. If the vehicle is half range or under, it hits with Melta special rule. That would be how I would play.

Kaaihn wrote:

padixon wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

padixon wrote:

2. The blast rules has its own rules for measurement which is all covered under it's own section which calls for a measurement to check maximum range to the blast marker (before scatter, again already covered in a post above) and again after the scatter from the original point to the new point.

There is no place in the sequence or blast rules where you are told to measure after the scatter.

I meant after the scatter roll, you measure from the original point to the scattered point

No, you don't do that. There is nothing in the rules whatsoever that tells you to take a measurement to the scattered point.

There is no further measurement to the blast template after rolling the scatter die, ever.

The closest you can come to this would be to say that if, due to scatter, you score a hit on a vehicle different from the one you already have the range measurement to, you will have to take a new measurement to that vehicle to determine if you are in half range for melta. That is measuring to the vehicle though, not to the blast template and doesn't look to be what you were referring to anyway.

Wow, Sorry, I did not realize what you were referencing until now. I was in fact talking about when you don't roll a hit mark on the actual scatter dice and instead 'scatter'. At which point we 'have to' measure to the new location of the blast as per the blast rule. I think we were missing each others meaning again.

You know this line, "If an arrow is rolled, the marker is shifted in the direction shown on the arrow a number of inches equal to the total of the 2d6..blah blah..."

I was referring to all blast weapons (not just the melta cannon) and a second measurement is made to determine the landing spot of a 'miss' of a scatter roll. Unless you just 'guesstimate' that distance instead of acutely measuring it. But I am sure you know that is silly and we actually measure to the scattered location.

Sorry for the miss-communication, that is one of the down falls of typing...a lot of miss information.

EDIT: My original quote, when you look at it was just in reference to the blast rule in a 'summarized' type fashion and had no bearing on the melta subject at all, apologies.

padixon wrote:
I was in fact talking about when you don't roll a hit mark on the actual scatter dice and instead 'scatter'. At which point we 'have to' measure to the new location of the blast as per the blast rule. I think we were missing each others meaning again.

You know this line, "If an arrow is rolled, the marker is shifted in the direction shown on the arrow a number of inches equal to the total of the 2d6..blah blah..."

I was referring to all blast weapons (not just the melta cannon) and a second measurement is made to determine the landing spot of a 'miss' of a scatter roll.

Yes, we were talking about two entirely different things then.

I'm not seeing how the fact that you measure and move the template the number of inches rolled on scatter has any bearing on anything though. While you do measure as part of the function of scatter to move the template, there is no measurement after the template is placed in its new location for range purposes, or any other reason.

The only ranging measurement is in step 2. The measurement before scatter is not a new range measurement, it is a check to make sure you didn't place it outside maximum. The measurement during scatter is not somehow added to the range measurement in step 2, it is just a function of the process to move the template.

yakface wrote:

Aldonis wrote:
Please point out the page in the rule book that states that the vehicle is within half range....then maybe I'll change my mind.

I've already posted this rule several times, but I'll post it yet again. The MELTA rule, (which is what matters here) says:

"They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a Vehicle's Armour Value at half range or less."


And when measuring distances to a vehicle (pg56):

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull."


So YES you measure to make sure a blast lands within the maximum range of the weapon, but that is DIFFERENT from the Melta rule which requires you to find out if the VEHICLE is at half range or less from the firing WEAPON.


There is absolutely, positively no rules anywhere that anyone has pointed out that can support the idea that where the marker ends up somehow affects whether or not the Melta rule kicks in or not because the Melta rule does not care where the blast marker lands, it only cares whether the vehicle that is being hit is within half of its maximum range.

Aldonis wrote:Think about this:

I have two tanks side by side - both are barely within 12" of the Melta cannon. I target the one on the left slightly within twelve inches. Then I scatter enough to go off the target but land on the one on the right - but slightly further away than my first shot - but only a little.

Would you not check if you are within 12" from the landing point of the blast marker? And if so - why would you not do that in all cases?

If both vehicles are within 12" of the weapon than you would get the Melta's bonus penetration die when rolling penetration against either of them regardless of where the blast actually lands.

Or an even more dicey thing. You are shooting at tank on the left and find yourself 13"s away, then you scatter onto another tank that is closer to you and at 11 inches after scatter.

Would you get the 2D6 for pen of the melta weapon?

If the further tank is 13" away from the firing weapon then you would not get the Melta's bonus penetration die when rolling to penetrate it regardless of where the blast actually lands (although it must be over the tank at least partially to hit it). If the blast scatters and hits a vehicle that is within 12" of the firing weapon then you would get the melta's bonus penetration die when rolling to penetrate it regardless of where the blast actually lands (although it must be over the tank at least partially to hit it).

"They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a Vehicle's Armour Value at half range or less."
exactly the point but you got one thing wrong I believe. It measures from the side of the armour you hit, so if the hull is the front armour and the shot scatters half way off the back but is still touching the rear armour with the edge of the blast marker then you measure from the rear armour since it say "a Vehicle's Armour Value at half range or less" and not "a vehicle at half range or less."




-Orkishly

Just thought of a better example. Let's say you hit the front armour but the marker (which we will say is 3") scatter to the back so the center of the marker is 14" away from the firer but is still touching the rear armour on the edge of the marker, and the rear armour is 12" away then you measure from the rear armour to see if you are at half range.





-Orkishly

orkishlyorkish wrote:Just thought of a better example. Let's say you hit the front armour but the marker (which we will say is 3") scatter to the back so the center of the marker is 14" away from the firer but is still touching the rear armour on the edge of the marker, and the rear armour is 12" away then you measure from the rear armour to see if you are at half range.

-Orkishly

No, you don't. You always measure ranges from closest point to closest point. No Exceptions.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:Just thought of a better example. Let's say you hit the front armour but the marker (which we will say is 3") scatter to the back so the center of the marker is 14" away from the firer but is still touching the rear armour on the edge of the marker, and the rear armour is 12" away then you measure from the rear armour to see if you are at half range.

-Orkishly

No, you don't. You always measure ranges from closest point to closest point. No Exceptions.

Not when measuring to see if it's at half range for melta. It says
"They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a Vehicle's Armour Value at half range or less."
in which case it means the armour value the melta shot OR blast is hitting.

not

"They roll an extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a Vehicle at half range or less."
in which case it would mean the vehicle's closest point.
There is a big difference.

EDIT- would a mod mind changing my flag to canada please? Thanks in advance



-Orkishly

LMFAO. You think that the line that is telling you about Penetrating an Armour value means you measure to that facing?

Lol. Seriously, I am just gonna ignore you from now on, you clearly have zero grasp of the rules.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:LMFAO. You think that the line that is telling you about Penetrating an Armour value means you measure to that facing?

Lol. Seriously, I am just gonna ignore you from now on, you clearly have zero grasp of the rules.

Sigh* I'm not even gonna argue with you. It's not worth it. Can anyone else clarify if what I'm reading and if my grasp on the melta rule is right because it seems the wording would be directed in case you have a melta blast weapon.





-Orkishly

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:LMFAO. You think that the line that is telling you about Penetrating an Armour value means you measure to that facing?

Lol. Seriously, I am just gonna ignore you from now on, you clearly have zero grasp of the rules.

Sigh* I'm not even gonna argue with you. It's not worth it. Can anyone else clarify if what I'm reading and if my grasp on the melta rule is right because it seems the wording would be directed in case you have a melta blast weapon.





-Orkishly

I'll keep it simple. No, your grasp of the melta rule is far from correct.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:LMFAO. You think that the line that is telling you about Penetrating an Armour value means you measure to that facing?

Lol. Seriously, I am just gonna ignore you from now on, you clearly have zero grasp of the rules.

Sigh* I'm not even gonna argue with you. It's not worth it. Can anyone else clarify if what I'm reading and if my grasp on the melta rule is right because it seems the wording would be directed in case you have a melta blast weapon.





-Orkishly

I'll keep it simple. No, your grasp of the melta rule is far from correct.

I'm asking for someone else's opinion.




-Orkishly

orkishlyorkish wrote:I'm asking for someone else's opinion.

-Orkishly

You are wrong. Yakface is Right.

I think different folks are interpreting rules differently.

I'm positive you don't measure a blast weapon before you place the template, but others disagree.

I'm positive you measure the melta effect at the range of the blast after scatter, others disagree.

Oh well....if you are playing me, we'll dice on it and let them decide if you disagree.

(BTW - I agree with orcishly)

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:LMFAO. You think that the line that is telling you about Penetrating an Armour value means you measure to that facing?

Lol. Seriously, I am just gonna ignore you from now on, you clearly have zero grasp of the rules.

Sigh* I'm not even gonna argue with you. It's not worth it. Can anyone else clarify if what I'm reading and if my grasp on the melta rule is right because it seems the wording would be directed in case you have a melta blast weapon.





-Orkishly

I'll keep it simple. No, your grasp of the melta rule is far from correct.

I'm asking for someone else's opinion.

You're being a bit too literal in reading that rule. "... a Vehicle's Armour Value..." in no way implies that you now measure to a particular side of the vehicle. The rules are very explicit about how and to what you measure distance. The melta rule simply says that you get bonus dice when rolling against a vehicle's armour value. The other rules, be they blast, or regular shooting, already dictate how to resolve what facing your shot affects.

-Yad

Kaaihn wrote:

Yad wrote:@Kaaihn:

Are you absolutely sure you measure to the closest point on the targeted vehicle's hull prior to placing the blast marker? I only say this, because, until this point, I was 100% certain you place the marker first, and then check to see if you are within the max range of the weapon that fired it.

For what I was writing, my #2 was a description of the rule action taken, 2a. was what happens in the scenario I was outlining. So there really is only 1 roll made.

Absolutely double decker sure with sprinkles on top.

Unless there is an FAQ to contradict the rulebook, blast rules kick in at step three of the shooting sequence. Step two is measure range.

You know, for a moment there you had me doubting... I just went through the blast rules and the description of the shooting phase on page 15. If you're serious about thinking that you check range before placing the template, well, you are way wrong. I can see now why you think this. If and only if, you strictly adhere to the steps outlined on page 15. But that completely ignores how the Blast weapon rules actually work.

It's a bit late now, so I'll save it for tomorrow, but basically applying these 6 steps to all weapons a unit may fire is not a correct application of the rules. The specific blast rules call for their own steps to resolve each shot. Again, these are specific to blast weapons, and in no way, shape, or form do they interact with the steps outlined on page 15. Breakdown each step in the blast rules and you'll see an approximation to the steps outlined on page 15.

-Yad

Yad, page 29, upper right corner. Additional weapon characteristics. It says these are represented by additional rules. You use them in additional to the standard shooting rules.

Blast rules are all about hitting, and are self contained to step 3 of the firing sequence. You do step 1 as normal, step 2 as normal, step 3 using blast rules instead of rolling to hit as normal, then step 4, 5, and 6 as normal. That's how blast works within the rules framework.

The entire blast section is on how to work out who is hit by a blast, until the very last paragraph where it tells you that you are now on to step 4 of the firing sequence and doing it as normal, with the reminder that wounds can be allocated to anyone in the squad. As that is the pre-existing mechanic for wound allocation, it is just a reminder, not a special exception.

orkishlyorkish wrote:I'm asking for someone else's opinion.

Sorry Orkish, you have it wrong here. Regardless of the facing that is hit, you are still hitting the vehicle. Range check from firer to a vehicle is from firer to closest point of the hull of the vehicle, not to a specific point on the vehicle such as where a template is sitting, or a specific side of the vehicle.

@Kaaihn:
Ok, I've had my morning coffee and I'm thinking a bit better so here goes...

1.) The line above the shooting table on Pg.15 describes the 6 steps as a summary of the shooting process. Basically, it is an approximation of how shooting works, NOT, a series of steps that are set in stone and must be adhered to 100% of the time. This is important because...

2.) Barrage, and blast rules have very specific methods to resolve them. By following your interpretation, you basically remove the 'guess' out of guess weapons (or weapons that fire like they are 'guess'). Just in case, I don't see how you could then claim there is a conflict between the table on Pg.15 and the specific rules for blast and barrage weapons. See point #1. And finally,

3.) If you think that 'everyone' plays this wrong (according to your interpretation), this is one of the very few times, in fact probably the first, where I would assert that it is because they are all playing it right. Specificity always trumps generalities, even in the Core Rules. Yes, page 15 lays out a summary of how the shooting process works (summary mind you...see point #1), but the specific mechanics regarding blast and barrage rules must be followed. When you attempt to intersperse the six steps on pg.15 with the blast rules, your action is completely arbitrary and subjective. How do you KNOW when to move from step 1 to some action in the blast rules? How do you then determine when you move back to step 2? As I said, it's a subjective exercise and not, in the least, supported by the rules.

@Kaaihn:

Take a moment to digest what I've said in point 3, and then think on this:

When you read the blast rules from top to bottom you'll see that they cover everything outlined in the Six steps you keep referencing. For example, the first paragraph of the blast rules corresponds to step 1 of the summarized shooting process. Continue through the rest of the blast rules and you will find that everything else falls into place.

You MUST use the blast rules mechanic independant of other shooting rules. Unless of course, the blast rules themselves tell you otherwise (e.g. near the end of the blast rules where it tells you to 'roll for wounds AS NORMAL).

The problem is, games workshop needs to put out an errata because melta and blast were never designed to fit together, I mean if you use true line of sight it confuses things even further, like say the DD is shooting, I dont know, a monolith, something tall that it obviously cant see the top of, the blast scatters to where the hole is near the back, obviously he would still be shooting at that closest facing because he cant see where the blast lands. Now put it in the other perspective, the DD now can see over the top of some target vehicle, do by TLOS you count it towards where the blast lands since that point is now visible, yet follow shooting vehicle rules and still hit the nearest hull?

no doubt its a lil confusing. My opinion stands that the blast rule doesnt even apply here other than to determine which facing is hit, for partial hits and direct hits and such. This reasoning is because the " shooting at vehicles" rules are very clear as to how a vehicle is to be hit, and the top hull of the vehicle has nothing to do with anything, it has no armor value, funny the floor does though, counting as rear armor but no top armor for vehicles.

Regardless, its all moot until GW gets off there asses adn puts out the next errata

Oh damn, stupid me, I just realized the point that might solve this dilema. Ok what do people do when they fire a blast, ok DD fires, player places blast, measures range, blast within max range hull is 9" from melta cannon to target closest hull, roll scatter, scatters 7" at a 45 degree from the DD. Ok what does melta rule say if weapon is half range away or less, extra dice used for AP. Ok, its refering specifically to the weapon being used, which on a vehicle is completely different than say an infantry model which measures from its base. Ok where does it say when you fire the blast weapon that where it scatters you have to redirect the WEAPON being fired towards where the blast hits, you never do so, per TLOS you aim the weapon before hand measure to see not only that its within max range but for some vehicles like sponsons on LRBT to see if it as well does not interfere with its own hull. The weapons direction never changes, therefore you measure for melta provided it hits the vehicle, from the WEAPON to the vehicle., considering the melta rules state that melta can only be applied to vehicles, not blasts.

Yad wrote:@Kaaihn:

Take a moment to digest what I've said in point 3, and then think on this:

When you read the blast rules from top to bottom you'll see that they cover everything outlined in the Six steps you keep referencing. For example, the first paragraph of the blast rules corresponds to step 1 of the summarized shooting process. Continue through the rest of the blast rules and you will find that everything else falls into place.

You MUST use the blast rules mechanic independant of other shooting rules. Unless of course, the blast rules themselves tell you otherwise (e.g. near the end of the blast rules where it tells you to 'roll for wounds AS NORMAL).

That logic doesn't work. You can't say to go back to the firing sequence where it says you do at the end, and ignore the specific wording it uses for when it picks up the firing sequence at the beginning.

You are told to do steps x,y,z special for blast as the process of hitting with blast. It specifically tells you to do these steps in place of "roll to hit", which is step 3.

How you can say that the step in the hit process of "pick a model visible to the firer" which is the first step in the special hit process for blast is a replacement for the first thing you do in shooting which is "pick a target (meaning a unit) is completely beyond me. You perform instructions in order, you can't rearrange the order just because something sounds similar to you. Stick to the order the book tells you.

-Your unit picks an enemy unit as it's shooting target that turn.
-You measure range, closest to closest.
-Models with standard firing weapons roll to hit. If a model has a blast weapon, instead of rolling to hit as normal, you pick a model visible to the firer and place the blast template on it, and on until the end of blast hit resolution rules where it tells you to get back in the normal sequence, which is step 4. Note that you can of course reverse the order and do the blast first, then normal firing.

Kaaihn wrote:

Yad wrote:@Kaaihn:

Take a moment to digest what I've said in point 3, and then think on this:

When you read the blast rules from top to bottom you'll see that they cover everything outlined in the Six steps you keep referencing. For example, the first paragraph of the blast rules corresponds to step 1 of the summarized shooting process. Continue through the rest of the blast rules and you will find that everything else falls into place.

You MUST use the blast rules mechanic independant of other shooting rules. Unless of course, the blast rules themselves tell you otherwise (e.g. near the end of the blast rules where it tells you to 'roll for wounds AS NORMAL).

That logic doesn't work. You can't say to go back to the firing sequence where it says you do at the end, and ignore the specific wording it uses for when it picks up the firing sequence at the beginning.

You are told to do steps x,y,z special for blast as the process of hitting with blast. It specifically tells you to do these steps in place of "roll to hit", which is step 3.

How you can say that the step in the hit process of "pick a model visible to the firer" which is the first step in the special hit process for blast is a replacement for the first thing you do in shooting which is "pick a target (meaning a unit) is completely beyond me. You perform instructions in order, you can't rearrange the order just because something sounds similar to you. Stick to the order the book tells you.

You're still making the same mistake. You're conflating the 6 steps on pg.15 with the blast rules when you shouldn't be doing so. Again see point 1 that I made above. These steps are simply a way to describe the shooting process, and by their own admission, not the only way (i.e., The shooting process CAN be described...). They are simply a generalization about the shooting process wihtin the Shooting Phase. You need to read the specific mechanics regarding blast, barrage, etc to understand how they work. I'm not saying that they are identical. Indeed, I'm not even remotely suggesting that you must follow the steps on pg.15 AND the steps outlined in the blast rules together. You only follow the rules for blast weapons when resolving a shot with a blast weapon.

Kaaihn wrote:-Your unit picks an enemy unit as it's shooting target that turn.
-You measure range, closest to closest.
-Models with standard firing weapons roll to hit. If a model has a blast weapon, instead of rolling to hit as normal, you pick a model visible to the firer and place the blast template on it, and on until the end of blast hit resolution rules where it tells you to get back in the normal sequence, which is step 4. Note that you can of course reverse the order and do the blast first, then normal firing.

Again, you're attempting to apply a generalization of the shooting process to a specific rule mechanic. Can't be done. I'm curious though, does your group play this way, or do you go along with what you perceive to be a general play error?

Yad you are utterly wrong, it is not a generalisation at all, otherwise I could say "ok Im gonna make you roll your saves first, after all it's just a generalisation!"

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Yad you are utterly wrong, it is not a generalisation at all, otherwise I could say "ok Im gonna make you roll your saves first, after all it's just a generalisation!"

Oh good Lord, what part of "The shooting process CAN be described..." indicates that it is a generalization.

HINT

What it says is that "it can be summarized in six steps", and then "once you have completed this sequence...". It isn't a generalization, it is a summary of rules used in each step. You may need to expound on the rules in a given step, or use special rules for a step in place of what is described there, but the steps are the same unless something explicitly changes that. It even tells you that special weapons (which blast is) are in addition to the normal steps.

Blast doesn't change the steps, it fits exactly in with them. It tells you to use the blast rules in place of the standard rules during step 3, and to continue back to using standard rules starting at step 4. Like I have said a few times, it goes normal step 1, step 2, blast rules in place of normal step 3, step 4, then 5, then 6, then on to another unit.

Yad wrote:I'm curious though, does your group play this way, or do you go along with what you perceive to be a general play error?

I just go along with it since I don't honestly care most of the time. People usually have one of those lightbulb moments though when they realize they have very obviously been doing it wrong.

It's like twin-linked. Where I play many people roll two dice at once, and as long as one is a hit they count it as hitting. That is wrong though, you are told to roll and re-roll a miss, not roll two dice and pick the highest. The difference gets in to probabilities, averages, and odds, but I just don't usually care enough to ask people to actually play by the rule on that one either. Similar to what is happening here, if you do something long enough wrongly, you eventually may assume you are doing it right. If an Eldar player cast Guide on a unit that has a twin-linked gun, I'm going to draw the line at them rolling both dice together, then re-rolling both dice together. That would be using a rule wrong and expounding on it to use a second rule wrong. That is what is causing your confusion with melta. You are using blast rules wrong, and it is causing you to use melta rules wrong.

I think that YAD is dead nerts on