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I'm gonna stick my neck out here and say I agree with Yakface and co. The Melta and The Blast Rules do not interact with each other at all. If the Blast Indicates the Vehicle is hit, you measure from the closest point to closest point to determine melta range.

A bit off topic but I need to say something. WELCOME BACK GWAR!!!! haven't seen you posting for awhile lol. I thought waaaaagh! was going to turn into the new Gwar! for awhile there





-Orkishly

orkishlyorkish wrote:A bit off topic but I need to say something. WELCOME BACK GWAR!!!! haven't seen you posting for awhile lol. I thought waaaaagh! was going to turn into the new Gwar! for awhile there

-Orkishly

Glad to see I was missed I'll not elaborate on my recent absence (You don't need to be a genius to figure it out).

protip: It's related to my avatar and the current Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Kaaihn wrote:

That logic doesn't work. You can't say to go back to the firing sequence where it says you do at the end, and ignore the specific wording it uses for when it picks up the firing sequence at the beginning.

You are told to do steps x,y,z special for blast as the process of hitting with blast. It specifically tells you to do these steps in place of "roll to hit", which is step 3.

How you can say that the step in the hit process of "pick a model visible to the firer" which is the first step in the special hit process for blast is a replacement for the first thing you do in shooting which is "pick a target (meaning a unit) is completely beyond me. You perform instructions in order, you can't rearrange the order just because something sounds similar to you. Stick to the order the book tells you.

-Your unit picks an enemy unit as it's shooting target that turn.
-You measure range, closest to closest.
-Models with standard firing weapons roll to hit. If a model has a blast weapon, instead of rolling to hit as normal, you pick a model visible to the firer and place the blast template on it, and on until the end of blast hit resolution rules where it tells you to get back in the normal sequence, which is step 4. Note that you can of course reverse the order and do the blast first, then normal firing.

Jesus Murphy. The answer to the bolded text above is "bollocks is does bloody not say that!". Your main point here is a complete and utter fabrication. The blast rules specifcally tell you to place the template and then, and only bloody then, measure range. Just because the rule says " do not role to hit" before it says "do not measure range" doesn't mean you get to apply the basic shooting rules to weapons that don't use those rules. If you really need me to I can parse the whole bloody Blast section and show you exactly why you're about as wrong as can be. Suffice to say that the rules are crystal clear about the order in which Blast templates work, and they don't work at all as you have suggested.

There's no way that this should be an arguement about the general shooting rules anyway, and there's no way that any competant 40K player can suggest that the basic shooting rules apply in full to blast, template, and barrage weaponry. All of those weapon types have their own set of rules for firing and that is what should be followed.

The easy way to thumb my nose at your 'ruling' is to point out that step two of the Blast rules, i.e the part that starts "check if the shot has landed on target" (pg 30, BGB) is impossible if you apply the general shooting rules. You'd never have to measure to see if the blast you just placed is on target if you first got to measure range to the target. So obviously there's another rule in play there.

Fenris-77 wrote:

The easy way to thumb my nose at your 'ruling' is to point out that step two of the Blast rules, i.e the part that starts "check if the shot has landed on target" (pg 30, BGB) is impossible if you apply the general shooting rules. You'd never have to measure to see if the blast you just placed is on target if you first got to measure range to the target. So obviously there's another rule in play there.

So I take it you are one of those people that says you are allowed to measure from the firing model to any model in the enemy unit you want, rather than closest to closest as measuring for range says?

Read the rules again. You are told blast is an extra weapon characteristic that has additional rules. The specific wording for blast rules says: when firing a blast weapon, do not roll to hit, instead...

When I am told to use these rules in addition to the standard shooting rules, and my first additional rule is to use these instead of rolling to hit (which is step 3), there is no reason to decide step 1 and 2 don't suddenly apply.

You are not understanding the point of that max range measurement at all. Yes, you have a range measurement already from step 2, but it is only to the closest model in the unit. You are allowed to place your blast on any model in LOS in the unit though, which in some situations can be out of range of the weapon. You do a check after dropping the template to verify you placed it in range. Don't want to risk your template being out of range? Then put it on the closest model that you know for certain is in range.

Fenris-77 wrote:
The easy way to thumb my nose at your 'ruling' is to point out that step two of the Blast rules, i.e the part that starts "check if the shot has landed on target" (pg 30, BGB) is impossible if you apply the general shooting rules. You'd never have to measure to see if the blast you just placed is on target if you first got to measure range to the target. So obviously there's another rule in play there.

Step 1: determine if target is in range of weapon (closest to closest) i.e. anything from (usually) 0" -> max range
Step 2: place blast marker anywhere you want on the unit.
Step 3: determine if this placement is still within the MAXIMUM range of the weapon

There, that has disproved your final point. The second measurement tells you if you are within maximum range as opposed to "in range" whcih is all the initial step in the rules for shooting states. You therefore can perfectly sensibly make 2 range determinations without either contradicting each other or being "impossible"

You're on a hiding to nothing with that line of argument, sorry. You are told Blast are additional rules, so you must therefore apply ALL rules except where you are explicitly told otherwise. The only place this is mentioned is the "instead of rolling to hit...." part - in fact under your logic you flounder as you can never determine your target, which is step 1 of shooting. Or do you only apply parts of the shooting rules without having any logical basis for doing so?

Dude go read the blast rules in the BGB, you must place the blast before measuring range QFQ:
"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle. You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it. Next, check if the shot has landed on target. If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon’s maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed.

If the target is in range, the large area affected by the blast means it’s going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless, the shot may not land exactly where it was intended to. Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands. If the scatter dice rolls a hit symbol the shot lands on target (ignore the 2D6). If an arrow is rolled, the marker is shifted in the direction shown by the arrow a number of inches equal to the total of the 2D6 minus the firing model’s BS (to a minimum of 0)."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You never measure range before determining target units or models in 40k, as such would technically allow you to choose a different target which is not the rules. You must always choose a target, check to see if it is within range, etc. If the target you chose is out of range, it is a miss, and no new target may be chosen.

gameandwatch wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
You never measure range before determining target units or models in 40k, as such would technically allow you to choose a different target which is not the rules. You must always choose a target, check to see if it is within range, etc. If the target you chose is out of range, it is a miss, and no new target may be chosen.

You will always have chosen your target unit first before ever making the range check. Nobody is saying otherwise.

Step 1: Declare Target
Step 2: Check range (firing model to closest model in the enemy unit targeted)
Step 3: Roll to hit (or substitute blast rules here for blast weapons)

You are told to place the blast template instead of rolling to hit, and then verify you have not placed your template out of max range, which would cause an automatic miss if you did.

Remember you will not have been allowed to ever measure to any model but the closest one in the enemy unit to the firing model, but you are given permission to place the template on any model in LOS in your target unit. This can cause situations where you have placed your template out of max range, so a check is in place to handle that situation.

You guys are really pushing the interpretations of the rules on firing. I think that the rules for the blast weapon overrides the rules for direct fire weapons.

This is supported by page 15 of the small rule book - the shooting sequence is a summary. it also says that it ends with details of the different weapons categories.

P27 - additional characteristics - in addition to it's type a weapon may have some add'l characteristics that define the way they work (this includes blast btw)

Now p30 - Blast - When firing a BW, etc goes through the process and steps for firing blast weapons - you don't roll to hit - you place the blast marker - then check if you placed it in range.

You DO NOT premeasure blast weapons - it is not supported by the rules.

Aldonis wrote:I think that the rules for the blast weapon overrides the rules for direct fire weapons.

What you are told is that they are in addition to the normal rules. Use the normal rules until Blast rules tell you they are used in place of a normal rule.

Aldonis wrote:This is supported by page 15 of the small rule book - the shooting sequence is a summary. it also says that it ends with details of the different weapons categories.

The summary in each step is a summary, yes. You get the full rules for each step as you turn the pages. The sequence itself is not a summary. As the book says, you complete this six step shooting sequence with one unit, select another unit and repeat the sequence.

Aldonis wrote:P27 - additional characteristics - in addition to it's type a weapon may have some add'l characteristics that define the way they work (this includes blast btw)

Exactly, this is what I have said repeatedly. You use the blast rules in addition to the normal rules.

Aldonis wrote:Now p30 - Blast - When firing a BW, etc goes through the process and steps for firing blast weapons - you don't roll to hit - you place the blast marker - then check if you placed it in range.

Page 30 blast instructions tell you to use them in place of rolling to hit. The entire section is about determining how many models in a unit are hit by your blast. Nothing more, nothing less.

Aldonis wrote:You DO NOT premeasure blast weapons - it is not supported by the rules.

Of course you don't, nobody is telling you to. Pre-measuring a blast weapon would mean measuring to the spot you are putting the template, which you are not allowed to do. You perform normal shooting rules, which is target a unit, measure firing models to closest model in the enemy unit, then roll to hit. If one of the firers in that unit has a blast weapon, you follow the blast rules for resolving a hit with the blast template instead of rolling to hit. Once you determine the number of hits from rolling to hit and your template, roll to wound as normal.

Aldonis wrote:You guys are really pushing the interpretations of the rules on firing. I think that the rules for the blast weapon overrides the rules for direct fire weapons.

Think that all you want, it still isn't true.

Aldonis wrote:This is supported by page 15 of the small rule book - the shooting sequence is a summary. it also says that it ends with details of the different weapons categories.

Yes it is a Summery. How does a Summery = Overrides the rules? Also, Small Rulebook = Large Rulebook in all page numbers bar the summery. it has been for ages now. Why Do people still state "Small Rulebook and Large Rulebook"?

Aldonis wrote:P27 - additional characteristics - in addition to it's type a weapon may have some add'l characteristics that define the way they work (this includes blast btw)

Yes, thats fine..

Aldonis wrote:Now p30 - Blast - When firing a BW, etc goes through the process and steps for firing blast weapons - you don't roll to hit - you place the blast marker - then check if you placed it in range.

You DO NOT premeasure blast weapons - it is not supported by the rules.

How does "Do not Roll to hit" = "Do not Measure Range?"

Furthermore, how does that effect the Melta Rule in ANY way? Melta Does not rely on the Blast rules to tell it how far the target is, the initial measurement for the firing does. Nothing in the Blast Rules say you ignore that first Measuring, you just don't roll to hit, you instead place the blast marker on any Model in LOS in the target unit, and this MAY cause it to be placed out of its max range. You then measure again to make sure, if its past it's max range, it auto misses. If not, resolve the Blast. Once you resolve the blast, you see the Vehicle has been hit, the melta rule kicks in, asking "Is the Vehicle within half range (as per the rules for measuring distances)?". If yes, Gain +1D6, if No, Sucks2beyou.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: Kaaihn is great Ninja Warrior!

Gwar! wrote:

Aldonis wrote:You guys are really pushing the interpretations of the rules on firing. I think that the rules for the blast weapon overrides the rules for direct fire weapons.

Think that all you want, it still isn't true.

Aldonis wrote:This is supported by page 15 of the small rule book - the shooting sequence is a summary. it also says that it ends with details of the different weapons categories.

Yes it is a Summery. How does a Summery = Overrides the rules? Also, Small Rulebook = Large Rulebook in all page numbers bar the summery. it has been for ages now. Why Do people still state "Small Rulebook and Large Rulebook"?

Aldonis wrote:P27 - additional characteristics - in addition to it's type a weapon may have some add'l characteristics that define the way they work (this includes blast btw)

Yes, thats fine..

Aldonis wrote:Now p30 - Blast - When firing a BW, etc goes through the process and steps for firing blast weapons - you don't roll to hit - you place the blast marker - then check if you placed it in range.

You DO NOT premeasure blast weapons - it is not supported by the rules.

How does "Do not Roll to hit" = "Do not Measure Range?"

Furthermore, how does that effect the Melta Rule in ANY way? Melta Does not rely on the Blast rules to tell it how far the target is, the initial measurement for the firing does. Nothing in the Blast Rules say you ignore that first Measuring, you just don't roll to hit, you instead place the blast marker on any Model in LOS in the target unit, and this MAY cause it to be placed out of its max range. You then measure again to make sure, if its past it's max range, it auto misses. If not, resolve the Blast. Once you resolve the blast, you see the Vehicle has been hit, the melta rule kicks in, asking "Is the Vehicle within half range (as per the rules for measuring distances)?". If yes, Gain +1D6, if No, Sucks2beyou.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: Kaaihn is great Ninja Warrior!

We've strayed a bit from the original topic in this thread. What we've got now is a demonstration of a very fundemental misunderstanding in the rules regarding shooting and blast weapons. I suspect it'll take a bit more then us to convince Kaaihn and company how wrong they are.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

We've strayed a bit from the original topic in this thread. What we've got now is a demonstration of a very fundemental misunderstanding in the rules regarding shooting and blast weapons. I suspect it'll take a bit more then us to convince Kaaihn and company how wrong they are.

-Yad

It hasn't really strayed. The fundamental misunderstanding that people have demonstrated with blast rules and the shooting phase is what leads to their misunderstanding of melta. Using blast rules properly doesn't leave any room for confusion with melta.

It is people claiming that the max range check as part of blast rules used during the hit resolution step of the shooting sequence is used instead of the unit to unit range check done in the previous step that is causing the confusion with melta in the first place.

Kaaihn wrote:

Yad wrote:

We've strayed a bit from the original topic in this thread. What we've got now is a demonstration of a very fundemental misunderstanding in the rules regarding shooting and blast weapons. I suspect it'll take a bit more then us to convince Kaaihn and company how wrong they are.

-Yad

It hasn't really strayed. The fundamental misunderstanding that people have demonstrated with blast rules and the shooting phase is what leads to their misunderstanding of melta. Using blast rules properly doesn't leave any room for confusion with melta.

It is people claiming that the max range check as part of blast rules used during the hit resolution step of the shooting sequence is used instead of the unit to unit range check done in the previous step that is causing the confusion with melta in the first place.

What if the fundamental misunderstanding is that you are wrong on your interpretation of the blast firing rules? (which I believe to be true)

Aldonis wrote:

What if the fundamental misunderstanding is that you are wrong on your interpretation of the blast firing rules? (which I believe to be true)

If your interpretation of blast is correct (which it isn't, but just supposing), it actually still wouldn't change how melta works.

Even going with your interpretation of using blast, melta still works from measuring from a vehicle to the firer, per the RAW for melta. When measuring a range from a unit (such as a vehicle), the measurement is taken from the closest point of the hull. There is nothing whatsoever to actually support measuring from the template to the firer for determining melta range.

So the answer for melta doesn't change regardless of your interpretation of blast rules. If you are using blast rules correctly, the question won't even come up was my point. Understanding how blast works means you know that the template is just an abstract process for determining number of hits against a unit. That process is entirely self contained in step three of the shooting sequence.

Aldonis wrote:What if the fundamental misunderstanding is that you are wrong on your interpretation of the blast firing rules? (which I believe to be true)

I also believe that Xenu and crew are all real. Doesn't make it true.

Protip: He isn't wrong.

The only thing the direct-fire blast rules resolve is "what is hit". It is an abstract resolution mechanic and does not literally determine "where the shot lands" or "the precise location where a vehicle is hit".

Once it is resolved that a vehicle is hit, the blast rule has served its purpose and has no further impact. The melta rule is a damage-resolution mechanic (agnostic of any hit-resolution mechanics) and its rule explicitly states that it is only interested in the distance between the firing weapon and the affected (i.e. "hit") vehicle.

ubermosher wrote:The only thing the direct-fire blast rules resolve is "what is hit". It is an abstract resolution mechanic and does not literally determine "where the shot lands" or "the precise location where a vehicle is hit".

Once it is resolved that a vehicle is hit, the blast rule has served its purpose and has no further impact. The melta rule is a damage-resolution mechanic (agnostic of any hit-resolution mechanics) and its rule explicitly states that it is only interested in the distance between the firing weapon and the affected (i.e. "hit") vehicle.

There is nothing more I want than to see this thread die, but I couldn't resist

page 30 "Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands."

Again, sorry, couldn't resist...other than that, no one ever backs down from their stance, so we have all said our parts and lets just let this one die.

Lets just all agree to disagree, or does everyone like watching marry-go-rounds...

padixon wrote:

ubermosher wrote:The only thing the direct-fire blast rules resolve is "what is hit". It is an abstract resolution mechanic and does not literally determine "where the shot lands" or "the precise location where a vehicle is hit".

Once it is resolved that a vehicle is hit, the blast rule has served its purpose and has no further impact. The melta rule is a damage-resolution mechanic (agnostic of any hit-resolution mechanics) and its rule explicitly states that it is only interested in the distance between the firing weapon and the affected (i.e. "hit") vehicle.

There is nothing more I want than to see this thread die, but I couldn't resist

page 30 "Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands."

Again, sorry, couldn't resist...other than that, no one ever backs down from their stance, so we have all said our parts and lets just let this one die.

Lets just all agree to disagree, or does everyone like watching marry-go-rounds...

So then shall we ignore the part that then says "casualties may be taken from anywhere in the unit, not just those under the marker"? After all, the shot landed THERE and THERE is where the models must die. They did that in 3rd btw, suddenly Blast Weapons became the Snipers Weapon of Choice.

Gwar! wrote:

padixon wrote:

ubermosher wrote:The only thing the direct-fire blast rules resolve is "what is hit". It is an abstract resolution mechanic and does not literally determine "where the shot lands" or "the precise location where a vehicle is hit".

Once it is resolved that a vehicle is hit, the blast rule has served its purpose and has no further impact. The melta rule is a damage-resolution mechanic (agnostic of any hit-resolution mechanics) and its rule explicitly states that it is only interested in the distance between the firing weapon and the affected (i.e. "hit") vehicle.

There is nothing more I want than to see this thread die, but I couldn't resist

page 30 "Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands."

Again, sorry, couldn't resist...other than that, no one ever backs down from their stance, so we have all said our parts and lets just let this one die.

Lets just all agree to disagree, or does everyone like watching marry-go-rounds...

So then shall we ignore the part that then says "casualties may be taken from anywhere in the unit, not just those under the marker"? After all, the shot landed THERE and THERE is where the models must die. They did that in 3rd btw, suddenly Blast Weapons became the Snipers Weapon of Choice.

lol, gwar, thanks for taking this to the funny direction I wanted it to go, this thread needs to die....I was being a little spontaneous and funny...thats all

padixon wrote:
There is nothing more I want than to see this thread die, but I couldn't resist

page 30 "Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands."

.

You should have resisted, because cherry picking one step in a multi-part process out and holding it up as being evidence of a point just looks silly.

I'm not attacking you for it, just saying I think it looks silly. May as well let the thread die, since it really is obvious that no one is going to change their minds based on all the reasoning given already. No point continuing unless someone has something new to say.