North Korea ditches armistice, threatens force

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**Cheese Elemental**

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/27/2582359.htm?section=world

North Korea is threatening to use military force against the South, saying it is no longer bound by the terms of the 1953 armistice between the two Koreas.

Pyongyang has confirmed that it considers South Korea's decision to join a US-led naval blockade as tantamount to a declaration of war.

Seoul has joined the US-led initiative to check vessels suspected of carrying equipment for weapons of mass destruction.

The North is facing international sanction for this week's nuclear test, which brought about global condemnation.

A North Korean army spokesman also said the country was no longer bound by the armistice signed at the end of the 1950-53 Korean War because Washington had ignored its responsibility as a signatory by drawing South Korea into its naval initiative.

The threat comes after South Korean media reported earlier that Pyongyang had restarted a plant that makes weapons-grade plutonium.

"Any hostile act against our peaceful vessels including search and seizure will be considered an unpardonable infringement on our sovereignty and we will immediately respond with a powerful military strike," the spokesman for the North's army was quoted as saying by the official KCNA news agency.

South Korea announced yesterday it was joining the naval exercise, called the Proliferation Security Initiative.

Pyongyang also appeared to have fired a third short-range missile late on Tuesday after it added to tensions with a launch of two others earlier in the day, the South's Yonhap news agency quoted a unnamed government source as saying.

US President Barack Obama is working to form a united response to Monday's nuclear test, widely denounced as a major threat to stability that violates UN resolutions and brings the reclusive North closer to having a reliable nuclear bomb.

The secretive state appears to have made good on a threat issued in April of restarting a facility at its Yongbyon nuclear plant that extracts plutonium, South Korea's largest newspaper, Chosun Ilbo, reported.

"There are various indications that reprocessing facilities in Yongbyon resumed operation [and] have been detected by [a] US surveillance satellite, and these including steam coming out of the facility," it quoted an unnamed government source as saying.

This might seem scary, but North Korea has a population of about 22-23 million. No bigger than Australia. Yes, they have a pretty big military, but they don't have the manpower to support a full scale war. If they take military action, let's be honest, they won't stand a chance. But that's not the biggest concern. The biggest concern is that they might target civilian population centers with nukes and bombs, resulting in Hiroshima and Nagasaki all over again, only with many more casualties.

Thoughts on this? Is North Korea a serious threat, or has Kim Yong-il lost his marbles?

**George Spiggott**

My understanding is that both China and Russia support the actions against North Korea. This is either sabre rattling or the work of a true madman.

**Cheese Elemental**

And if China and Russia, both countries who had similar mindsets to North Korea for a long time, are supporting actions against them, this really shows how much of the world stands against them. I'm hoping some of the Korean top brass see sense and out Kim Jong-il, but that seems unlikely unless they are truly convinced that Kim is mad or they have no chance.

**BrookM**

The man in charge has suffered from a stroke if sources are to be believed, so he has most likely lost his marbles.

**Cheese Elemental**

If he really does push his nation into war, he doesn't deserve any mercy, because he's condemning thousands of innocent people without any sensible reason.

I'm not sure of Kim Yong-il's history though. Is he like Robert Mugabe, a hero who became a mad dictator?

**Golden Eyed Scout**

Cheese Elemental wrote:If he really does push his nation into war, he doesn't deserve any mercy, because he's condemning thousands of innocent people without any sensible reason.

I'm not sure of Kim Yong-il's history though. Is he like Robert Mugabe, a hero who became a mad dictator?

Far as I know, Kim Jong hasn't had his military rape, mutilate, and kill innocent women and little girls to ensure his power. He's still fething nuts, and one of his generals is gonna see this and out one between those outrageous sunglasses of his.

**BrookM**

Kim kidnapped a famous South Korean movie director and an actress so he could make movies with them.

**Ratbarf**

This might seem scary, but North Korea has a population of about 22-23 million. No bigger than Australia. Yes, they have a pretty big military, but they don't have the manpower to support a full scale war. If they take military action, let's be honest, they won't stand a chance.

Its not North Korea that they are afraid of, its China. China would probably support North Korea in a war so as not to lose face for not supporting an ally. And when push comes to shove they can call in their debts from America, you think the current economic crisis is bad? China owns a huge amount of American debt, if they call that in it will make the current recession into a depression.

**LuciusAR**

Considering that NK's only ally in the world is China and even they aren't standing beside them NK would be insane to go to war.

**Cheese Elemental**

Did you read that, Ratbarf? China is siding with the UN against NK. They're not going to be providing any support.

**Dexy**

North Korea doesn't even have ICBMs, the furthest they can reach with a nuke would be Japan, and they don't have the quantity China, Russia or other Nuclear powers do. If NK went to war, it would only end badly.

**sexiest_hero**

I've always said that N.Korea should have been our target if we han't blown our military on a useless Iraq. but do not worry. the usa has been dung into south korea for a long time. If N Korea armed a nuke to fire thier capital would be flattened before it launched, and this time there would be no moral questions there would be a cuop before Kim did something so stupid. trust me

**LunaHound**

sexiest_hero wrote:I've always said that N.Korea should have been our target if we han't blown our military on a useless Iraq. but do not worry. the usa has been dung into south korea for a long time. If N Korea armed a nuke to fire thier capital would be flattened before it launched, and this time there would be no moral questions there would be a cuop before Kim did something so stupid. trust me

Well like people have been saying , if kimchi are worth as much as oil , N.Korea would be gone in 2 weeks.

**ShumaGorath**

They have incredibly limited strike capability and a large well monitored no fly zone around their borders. Their actual ability to deliver a nuclear payload is highly suspect, especially given the missile defenses likely sitting in the region specifically to stop such an event. Thats not to say they aren't dangerous, but they have neither the military strength to prosecute a war against the south nor the technological base or reach to deliver their warheads effectively and safely.

Unless Kim actually has gone insane (quite possible given his health) I doubt this is much more than saber rattling to test the new American administration. Perhaps Iran will take the next few months to heart.

**Cheese Elemental**

I don't think this is sabre-rattling. Declaring that they're not bound by the armistice is a huge thing. Think about it; they might have limited strike capabilities, but South Korea is pretty close for some bizarre reason. Close enough to take a hit from a nuke.

**Cane**

This is just more sabre-rattlng; this is the only way they can get money and resources with their current leadership.

I also don't believe NK will escalate especially after the inevitable death of their emperor-god of a man, Kim Jung Il but in the case that it did occur; the NK military is by no means a force to underestimate. If the Korean War were to start again they could definitely overwhelm a lot of allied forces and decimate Seoul within the first few minuters of artillery barrages. Much of the USA"s forces are spread out as well so a war in Korea would strain their personnel. But NK definitely wouldn't be able to do a sustained conflict without the help of China...then it'd be WW3.

As for nukes; they could always send it via boat in cargo crate delivered to a major port city if they want to send a message.

**ShumaGorath**

Cane wrote:This is just more sabre-rattlng; this is the only way they can get money and resources with their current leadership.

I also don't believe NK will escalate especially after the inevitable death of their emperor-god of a man, Kim Jung Il but in the case that it did occur; the NK military is by no means a force to underestimate. If the Korean War were to start again they could definitely overwhelm a lot of allied forces and decimate Seoul within the first few minuters of artillery barrages. Much of the USA"s forces are spread out as well so a war in Korea would strain their personnel. But NK definitely wouldn't be able to do a sustained conflict without the help of China...then it'd be WW3.

As for nukes; they could always send it via boat in cargo crate delivered to a major port city if they want to send a message.

Comparatively no. The North Korean military is neither large nor impressive. It's better than many nations, but then again much of the planet has moved beyond the concept of militaristic force. Compared to Russia, China, America, hell even the Japanese Defense Force they are fairly pathetic. Any aggression would be ended within hours of any action taken by the UN and the security council nations.

**LunaHound**

Guys ... Kim Jong is just suffering from going into
WD phase. Right now he is a red giant , he want to make a mark in korean history while he still can.

**Orkeosaurus**

Kim Jong's going to become overpriced and filled with ads?

**sebster**

People pointing out that N Korea would get stomped in a war are missing the point. Yes, they would most certainly get stomped. They would get stomped if they were fighting just S Korea.

But there are more than 1,000 conventional artillery pieces in place right now that can hit Seoul. While any military engagement would be outrageously one-sided, the civilian casualties among the S Koreans could be enormous.

ShumaGorath wrote:Comparatively no. The North Korean military is neither large nor impressive. It's better than many nations, but then again much of the planet has moved beyond the concept of militaristic force. Compared to Russia, China, America, hell even the Japanese Defense Force they are fairly pathetic. Any aggression would be ended within hours of any action taken by the UN and the security council nations.

No, their military is pathetic. While it represents a large portion of their GDP, the N Korean GDP is pathetic in a way that only totalitarian states run by lunatics can be. S Korea by themselves have somewhere in realm of ten times the military capability of the N Koreans.

And that’s before you consider the relative qualities of individual troops. Around five years ago N Korea reduced the height requirements of their soldiers to five foot, necessary because malnutrition is so common.

The whole thing would be laughable except, of course, for all those artillery pieces pointing at Seoul.

**Ratbarf**

Did you read that, Ratbarf? China is siding with the UN against NK. They're not going to be providing any support.

I think that if it broke out into open war the Chinese would support North Korea. They seem to be big on the whole not losing face thing and not supporting your allies is a big no no if you want to look good. China doesn't really need America to function, America however seems to need China to function. If push came to shove the economic warfare that China could throw at the US is huge. It would probably bankrupt the country. As of 2008 China is the second largest holder of US debt.

**Cheese Elemental**

China wouldn't even try it. They wouldn't support a war started by a mad tyrant (yes, they have one too, but he's less mad).

**sebster**

Ratbarf wrote:I think that if it broke out into open war the Chinese would support North Korea. They seem to be big on the whole not losing face thing and not supporting your allies is a big no no if you want to look good. China doesn't really need America to function, America however seems to need China to function. If push came to shove the economic warfare that China could throw at the US is huge. It would probably bankrupt the country. As of 2008 China is the second largest holder of US debt.

Nonsense. The Chinese economy is built around exports to the West, especially to the US. The economic downturn has resulted in more than 40 million newly nemployed in China, resulting in no small amount of rioting. If the Chinese want to maintain their economy, they cannot reject such an important trading partner as the US.

Meanwhile, I suspect China would continue to aim towards its core goal of regional dominance, and that would likely mean pressuring both sides into a ceasefire and eventual treaty.

**Cheese Elemental**

So what happens when/if Kim Yong-il is overthrown? Will Korea become one nation again, or will China take the land, or what?

**Nofasse 'Eadhunta**

Cheese Elemental wrote:Is North Korea a serious threat, or has Kim Yong-il lost his marbles?

It is a well known fact that Kim Jong-Il lacks his marbles. His response to this is his theory that the South took his marbles while he wasn't looking and claims that they continue to deny the fact that they are thieves. Pissed beyond belief, and aware that marbles are an extremely valuable commodity, Kim Jong-Il has drawn a huge angry face on South Korea and has been known to refer any South Korean he sees as "A Big Fat Meanie."

Under the impression that the South would never return his marbles, Kim Jong-Il decided to make attempts to steal marbles from other people. This is why China and Russia have drawn angry faces on him.

Now, being so angry that his face is redder than a Coca-Cola can, he remembers that he has an army with uber killy weapons, and decides that he might take action.

Kim Jong-Il;
He will return his marbles, or die trying.

**Cheese Elemental**

Is this when you break out the photoshop retardation?

**Raon**

As sebster stated, there are conventional artillery pieces that can easily hit Seoul, which he is entirely capable of doing if he wishes, and it still would take minutes for fighters from Osan Air Base or other anti artillery elements to eliminate their artillery. The devastation would be large, especially if he timed it when schools were getting out and the streets are filled. I lived in South Korea in 99 (and my parents for 4 years after that), and we were told this was more of the threat than any 'nukes' that would have been sent our way.

As more of an observation, not a discriminatory comment (I have lived in far 'worse' places than South Korea) when I was over there, the local South Korean news was routinely filled with stories of bridges collapsing, fires in schools that killed dozens of children, and 5 story shopping centers (basically how they make their 'malls' is each department is on a different floor) where the engineers decided to make a pool on the roof, but did not ensure enough structural strength for the additional weight of the water, and the building collapses. Let's just say that even if after the shelling started, and civilians took shelter in their more modern buildings, alot of them are not 'up to code' and would provide scant protection.

It isn't the fact that North Korea would be destroyed, that's not really the issue, it is how much damage he decides to inflict on the South Korea civilian population for a brief period when he finally loses it.

**Envy89**

yup... he is a few fries short of a happy meal.

but honestly, i think the largest threat dose not come from NK actualy getting nukes... it comes from them SELLING those nukes to Iran (unless they get them on thier own), Hamas, Al Qaeda, ect, ect...

**warpcrafter**

Yes, Seoul would be flattened, and North Korea would most likely be so messed up that it would look even more like that show "Life after people" than it does now, but it's looking more and more like it's gonna happen. We need to get a couple of carrier battle groups and some cruise missile ships and some drone control teams over there. We could launch a preemptive high-tech strike from hell on them that would leave them wondering if they ever had a military in the first place.

**Evil Eli**

All of this Saber Rattling is about two things, The Succession and Concessions.

Kim Jong "Mentally" Ill is in poor health and is probable dying. He has yet to name a successor. This 150 Day War his military has cooked up is to build up National Unity in order to make way for a smooth change in power.

North Korea lost a lot of support when the Ole USSR collapsed. China has also recently cut-back there sponsorship of NK. Also since South Korea has recently elected an "Conservative*" Government, They have gone from reconciliation and generous handout to feth you, you are not getting gak.

NK is hoping to get the everyone to cave into there demands by way of nuclear blackmail. It this turns into a shooting war it is going to start at sea. There have already been two naval engagements in the Yellow Sea, the last one in 2002.

* Korean Conservative = Strong Anti-North Sentiment