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There's probably a thread on this issue already, but damned if I can find it.

The question is: what have your experiences been with non-GW models and models with Non-GW bits at Tourneys?

So far the ones that I have been to have by and large been permissive of them as long as they maintained the overall theme of the army and blended in with the GW models. Usually there will be something about at least 50% GW/FW, though sometime it's not clear if they mean that individual models or the army itself.

Amusingly enough, I once had to have a judge estimate how much of a Guardsmen was GW... Is the presence or absence of a non-GW backpack on a single guardsmen going to alter the outcome of a battle (which I was winning overwhelmingly)??? Ironically, I've actually on occasion tipped the scale back by having a big FW backpack on a Hasslefree space dwarf to make a squat. The backpack + lasgun made up more then 50% of the model...

So what have your experiences been? Do you agree with the GW only/50% rules that some tourneys have or are you all about the art?

It's a tough subject. I'm someone who has to convert everything in my army and that means using non-GW bits. In club run tournies I get no complaints when I set up my army. Usually running a few test models past the organiser helps with this. But anything run by GW usually means that each mini has to be 50% or more GW. That means completely proxy models are a no-go which is quite annoying as I have a Kanonjagdpanzer as a Leman Russ Destroyer and this meant I had to purchase a FW Destroyer for official games.

I personally think that if the mini encompasses the spirit of the game it should be allowed. But then again, I am usually quite outspoken by this by the traditionalists (who usually have only played the game for half as many years as I have, quite oddly).

So, to summarise, club run tournies I've had no issue as long as I get it vetted first. I usually get great comments about my army from my adversary and a good conversion usually follows. But anything GW run is sketchy and if anything is less than 75% GW I don't risk taking it.

It's funny that I have to buy proper GW kits to take as proxies for my proper models

Sorry guys if this is the wrong place to post.

But I think GW says that you can scratchbuild and still be playable int tournies if there is no official GW model.

So there is no official GW model, would it be legal to field said scratch built looted wagon?

Coz I love scratch building things, and I love making ork vehicles out of cereal boxes!

I think that there would be little (or no) problem with a nicely converted army using some bits from other companies (like the separate heads that are making the rounds right now). I think that the standard is the amount of time\care\creativity you put into a model. If I show up with my scratch built Ragnarok Tank Company Russ stand ins it will be better received than if I show up with my plastic bob the builder trucks in factory colors.

lol Bob the builder trukks would be hilarious. Decals and all.
And yea its been said 50% or more has to be GW. Personally I think its kinda of dumb. I completely understand why they want it that way, they need to make money I get it, but I think if something is done nicely enough it go through.

As a relative newcomer to conversions and scratch building and never having played in a tournament, I am interested in this myself. Are scratch-builds allowed in GW tournaments if GW already has a model available? For instance, would my scratch-built drop pods be legal? They are roughly the same size/shape and have many GW parts of them, but they are not GW models by a long shot.

I'm vaguely intereested myself.
You see, I'm going to a tournament in July, and rather than having a standard Valkyrie/Vendetta for my Praetorian force, I'm scratch building Zeppelins instead. There are going to be forgeworld and games workshop bits modeled on of course (parts of the cupola, the lascannon turrets and so on)but I'm wondering as to how legal they'll be. They won't include any parts from other manufacturers, just the pieces of plasticard/plastic that I've used to construct the core oft he airship itself. Do you think this would be legal?

KingCracker wrote:its been said 50% or more has to be GW.

I've heard this pretty commonly, too. But if you want to scratch-build something and take it to a tournament, I say go for it! A lot of time people are more lenient and understanding than the rules themselves

I'm going to go ahead and flip this around on you and give you guys my PoV...

I work hard on my models. I love to convert, alter, and change models, as my two main armies are Death Guard and Orks. When I see someone put his model German Tiger with a glued on HK missile on the table I want to light it on fire, throw it across the room, give a primal scream and run over and jump up and down on it until not 1 single part is recognizable.

This is a visual hobby. Winning games is awesome, don't get me wrong, but this hobby is about my Army of Awesome fighting against your Army of Not-So-Awesome. The aesthetics matter. When I made my looted wagons, I kit bashed 3 GW kits. It frustrates me and disappoints me, and it definitely detracts from my enjoyment of the game when someone puts down a cereal box with glued on guns. Does everyone have to kit-bash 3 kits to make one tank? No. But, in my opinion, everyone who plays in this hobby owes it to their opponent to attain some measure of aesthetical parity, just like everyone owes it to their opponent not to cheat. Is scratch built, proxies, et al cheating, no, but for me, they're just as bad.

My personal opinion is that as long as I don't have to try to figure out what the model is supposed to be, my opponent can field whatever models he likes. GW or otherwise. This is probably why I don't both with tourney games. I build, paint and play to have fun. I like winning, but not at the cost of having fun.

I find it interesting DeathGod, that you assume my conversions are bad automatically. I'm actually quite good converter, and I wouldn't dream on plonking down 'a cereal box with guns glued on'.

For example, the zeppelins I'm currently building will have the basic airship shape made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle. However the cupola will be constructed from various chimera, russ, and city of death pieces, the turrets will be of Forgeworld origin as will several other bits and pieces such as fuel tanks and so on. The engine at the back will cut out of plasticard, and duely adorned with various games workshop components. Not only that, it'll be mounted on a Valkyrie flying base, and well painted.

Yet you tell me you find me using such a model insulting?

Ketara: I am interested in seeing those zepplins. Are you going to do a WIP thread for them?

I may or may not do. It depends on whether I have access to a camera or not at the time of production.

Ketara, that sounds awesome . I would love to see some pics as well!!

DeathGod wrote:I'm going to go ahead and flip this around on you and give you guys my PoV...

I work hard on my models. I love to convert, alter, and change models, as my two main armies are Death Guard and Orks. When I see someone put his model German Tiger with a glued on HK missile on the table I want to light it on fire, throw it across the room, give a primal scream and run over and jump up and down on it until not 1 single part is recognizable.

This is a visual hobby. Winning games is awesome, don't get me wrong, but this hobby is about my Army of Awesome fighting against your Army of Not-So-Awesome. The aesthetics matter. When I made my looted wagons, I kit bashed 3 GW kits. It frustrates me and disappoints me, and it definitely detracts from my enjoyment of the game when someone puts down a cereal box with glued on guns. Does everyone have to kit-bash 3 kits to make one tank? No. But, in my opinion, everyone who plays in this hobby owes it to their opponent to attain some measure of aesthetical parity, just like everyone owes it to their opponent not to cheat. Is scratch built, proxies, et al cheating, no, but for me, they're just as bad.

I'm not sure if I should resent the implication of my master sculpted add on resins be construed in the same sense as a cereal box with guns, however, I'll let it slide. Remember, there are soem people who can produce models superior to GWs. Are we to say that they are unwelcome?

Basically I find most everything DeathGod said to be very insulting. To everyone. Some people have a knack for making scratch builds very cool looking. Some have the cash to pay for it to be done, or just the cash to buy the appropriate materials. I agree that a cereal box with some toothpicks glued on for weapons isnt my idea of a nice build. But as long as it doesnt go beyond the rules and isnt cheating in the least, I dont care. You shouldnt care. Just because others dont have the means like you say you do, doesnt mean you can be a bully and bash anyone that does.

I think i would find a German Tiger Tank + HunterKiller to be insulting as well. On the other hand, a Leman Russ converted to look like a Tiger would be awesome.

Personally, to me, it depends on how much your stuff fits in with 40k aesthetics, with liberal concessions made depending on sheer awesomeness. IG with replacement heads? Replacement entire IG? Probably not, unless you'd gone to some lengths to imperialise your army.

Take a look at some of the Star Wars armies in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/239161.page


Or this one is quite awesome:
http://www.svenska40k.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=110
Every single thing 100% GW parts, not a single 'GW' themed model in sight. End result: Brilliant.

If it wasn't clear... I'd say, for 'mixed' models: how much have they tried to adhere to the theme of 40k? If its a Tiger with a HK, no. If its a tiger with extra rivets, Aquila tracks, heavy bolters, gothic arch viewports... awesome.

Obviously he wasn't referencing any one specific poster. He was making a commentary on those modelers who he probably has played, as we all have, who likes to cut corners and not take the time and energy o provide a visual gratifying army for their opponent to play against. Unless we have seen your stuff, don't assume we are talking about you.

Why does anyone find a vague post not referencing anyone, and mostly shrouded in inside meanings and memories, as insulting? Grow up. This song ain't about you.

No DeathGod I'm not gonna use a cereal box as a wagon. My materials for building the looted wagon is a cereal box. And will give it my all so it won't look like crap.

And everyone just chill before this get's ugly. If they won't accept your scratch builds no matter how awesome it looks compared to GW products then, oh well. It's not the end of the world, besides you play more fun games than tournies anyway.

Why do we find it insulting? Mainly because he made the post following posts from us enquiring us to whether or scratch builds would be useable. I'll agree that for most of his post, he didn't seem say anything specifically targeted at any of us. But his last sentence, 'Is scratch built, proxies, et al cheating, no, but for me, they're just as bad', made it clear that the ENTIRE statement is aimed at us.

Yeah, I have to agree that it seemed DeathGod was making a lot of assumptions about previous posts if not specifically directed at any one. But I can also understand his frustration. Presumably, his experiences with conversions wouldn't be allowed in tourneys anyway.

I also agree some real genius exists out there in modeling with and without GW kits.

PS I'd really like to see those zeppelins also, Ketara.

it just depends on the the organizer
and just check with them to see if the model is alright
last years astronomicon here in Toronto someone did a whole halo themed tau army all of it converted and i think sculpted, like grunts for fire warriors

and another tau player i remember made his own stealth suits out of clear resin so they were transparent i think he casted them

In the absence of anything 100% official from GW toury rules this year, I have pulled the following section out of the World Wide War (Sept 17th) rules:

Conversions, WYSIWYG, and “Counts As”
They must be of the appropriate type for the troops they represent and comply with the “Counts As” rule below.

Forge World miniatures may be used to represent models or options from the Codexes and Army Books allowed. This means you could use a Forge World Demolisher turret or Death Korps of Krieg troopers in your Imperial Guard army but would not be allowed to use Heavy Mortars or Centaurs.

The army must be WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). This means that weapons, armor options, and upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on characters and a majority of the models in a unit or squad.

“Counts As”
Should you wish to field certain models in your army that “count as” something different in your list than the model that was originally intended you need to follow these basic rules: the models must be roughly the same size as those you are substituting them, you must be consistent throughout your, and finally you must be very clear with your opponent prior to the game, going over anything that may cause confusion. It may be appropriate to create a “cheat sheet” for your opponent that has pictures of the units accompanied by a description of each unit and its equipment.

Scratch Building
There are times when the rules are not represented by a current (or previous edition) model or figures from GW, or maybe you just want to build something that looks really cool!

We like those, so built models will be allowed if they are built to represent the codex entry and its rules.

Scratch built models should be representative of the size it is supposed to be. You cannot claim your scratch built model is the size of a Monstrous Creature if it is supposed to be a man sized model.

Judges will be the ultimate authority if a scratch build will be usable in the World Wide War.

End Quote


It seems like this thread (and these rules) are coming to a consensus, If it is cool its legal. If it’s a piece of thrown together junk to avoid paying GW prices its not legal (or cool) to bring.

That's really helpful Andrew, ta very much. If that's the case, I should have no problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the post below:
Says the guy seemingly picking a fight over whether some other guy was insulting people.

Ah, the delicous irony of the internet.

Ketara wrote:Why do we find it insulting? Mainly because he made the post following posts from us enquiring us to whether or scratch builds would be useable. I'll agree that for most of his post, he didn't seem say anything specifically targeted at any of us. But his last sentence, 'Is scratch built, proxies, et al cheating, no, but for me, they're just as bad', made it clear that the ENTIRE statement is aimed at us.

GoFenris wrote:Yeah, I have to agree that it seemed DeathGod was making a lot of assumptions about previous posts if not specifically directed at any one. But I can also understand his frustration. Presumably, his experiences with conversions wouldn't be allowed in tourneys anyway.

I also agree some real genius exists out there in modeling with and without GW kits.

PS I'd really like to see those zeppelins also, Ketara.

Why would you assume that even if he quoted your post? He didn't specifically say that your models must be crap, so why woul you think otherwise? I think less internet fight would happen if people would stop seeing insults where there are none.

As far as i think , it can be 100% none GW bits , but you just have to tell them "yes the conversion is inspired by *that mini , but its all made out of GS underneath "

So what will the tourney people do? strip your mini to check?

D:

Ketara wrote:That's really helpful Andrew, ta very much. If that's the case, I should have no problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the post below:
Says the guy seemingly picking a fight over whether some other guy was insulting people.

Ah, the delicous irony of the internet.

I'm going to go ahead and flip this around on you and give you guys my PoV...

I work hard on my models. I love to convert, alter, and change models, as my two main armies are Death Guard and Orks. When I see someone put his model German Tiger with a glued on HK missile on the table I want to light it on fire, throw it across the room, give a primal scream and run over and jump up and down on it until not 1 single part is recognizable.

This is a visual hobby. Winning games is awesome, don't get me wrong, but this hobby is about my Army of Awesome fighting against your Army of Not-So-Awesome. The aesthetics matter. When I made my looted wagons, I kit bashed 3 GW kits. It frustrates me and disappoints me, and it definitely detracts from my enjoyment of the game when someone puts down a cereal box with glued on guns. Does everyone have to kit-bash 3 kits to make one tank? No. But, in my opinion, everyone who plays in this hobby owes it to their opponent to attain some measure of aesthetical parity, just like everyone owes it to their opponent not to cheat. Is scratch built, proxies, et al cheating, no, but for me, they're just as bad.

Notice the parity portion, where your Zeppelins fit in. Praetorians=Victorian Imperials, Zeppelins=Slightly latter, but still appropriate parity for the theme.

I find it interesting DeathGod, that you assume my conversions are bad automatically. I'm actually quite good converter, and I wouldn't dream on plonking down 'a cereal box with guns glued on'.

For example, the zeppelins I'm currently building will have the basic airship shape made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle. However the cupola will be constructed from various chimera, russ, and city of death pieces, the turrets will be of Forgeworld origin as will several other bits and pieces such as fuel tanks and so on. The engine at the back will cut out of plasticard, and duely adorned with various games workshop components. Not only that, it'll be mounted on a Valkyrie flying base, and well painted.

Yet you tell me you find me using such a model insulting?

So while he mentions his opinion appropriateness you still jump on him for his opinion about your modeling ability? That just doesn't make any kind of sense.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

Ketara wrote:That's really helpful Andrew, ta very much. If that's the case, I should have no problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the post below:
Says the guy seemingly picking a fight over whether some other guy was insulting people.

Ah, the delicous irony of the internet.

I'm going to go ahead and flip this around on you and give you guys my PoV...

I work hard on my models. I love to convert, alter, and change models, as my two main armies are Death Guard and Orks. When I see someone put his model German Tiger with a glued on HK missile on the table I want to light it on fire, throw it across the room, give a primal scream and run over and jump up and down on it until not 1 single part is recognizable.

This is a visual hobby. Winning games is awesome, don't get me wrong, but this hobby is about my Army of Awesome fighting against your Army of Not-So-Awesome. The aesthetics matter. When I made my looted wagons, I kit bashed 3 GW kits. It frustrates me and disappoints me, and it definitely detracts from my enjoyment of the game when someone puts down a cereal box with glued on guns. Does everyone have to kit-bash 3 kits to make one tank? No. But, in my opinion, everyone who plays in this hobby owes it to their opponent to attain some measure of aesthetical parity, just like everyone owes it to their opponent not to cheat. Is scratch built, proxies, et al cheating, no, but for me, they're just as bad.

Notice the parity portion, where your Zeppelins fit in. Praetorians=Victorian Imperials, Zeppelins=Slightly latter, but still appropriate parity for the theme.

I find it interesting DeathGod, that you assume my conversions are bad automatically. I'm actually quite good converter, and I wouldn't dream on plonking down 'a cereal box with guns glued on'.

For example, the zeppelins I'm currently building will have the basic airship shape made out of a 2 litre plastic bottle. However the cupola will be constructed from various chimera, russ, and city of death pieces, the turrets will be of Forgeworld origin as will several other bits and pieces such as fuel tanks and so on. The engine at the back will cut out of plasticard, and duely adorned with various games workshop components. Not only that, it'll be mounted on a Valkyrie flying base, and well painted.

Yet you tell me you find me using such a model insulting?

So while he mentions his opinion appropriateness you still jump on him for his opinion about your modeling ability? That just doesn't make any kind of sense.

M2C, do you troll on every W40k forum? So far, every thread I've seen you post to, you've been picking fights with people.

Yeah same. To be honest, I'm just going to click ignore on him right now. He just seems like a troublemaker.
Since he employs logic more twisted than a Chaos Cultists mind to make his point, it's not even worth reading.
If DeathGod didn't mean it the way he said it, he would have phrased it differently.
Again though, I find it ironic that the guy who got the ignore button wasn't the guy who made the statement,
rather the troll that came after defending him.

DeathGod,

Really enjoyed reading your perspective. I never thought about it that way. I usually think of the "GW-only" rule as being a GW money-making joke. But you have explained that it is not only that. If I were playing a WWII fighting game and someone dropped in models from WWI, it would sort of ruin the experience. So if playing 40K, people want to see that world. Doc Thunder, for example, has some awesome female Space Marines. But at a tourney, they might be turned away. They're not "canon."

I think any scratchbuild should be acceptable within reason - allow well-built models, disallow crud. But I guess at tournaments, they don't want to be bothered to decide where that line is, so they make it easy - no GW models. Even if the paint job is bad, each piece will at least LOOK as it is supposed to.