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There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.

Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.

You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.

So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.

However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.

I see this as a serious PhD thesis at Oxfard.



G

Orks and bugs will still be hard pressed to overwhelm mech gaurd. 65 points gets you 9 36" shots, and you still can get a HB from the unit -in- the transport. That's alot of dakka.

Good point. However surely the balancing of the aforementioned "I kill you" pieplates, horde armies are going to be having a tough time with that anyway.

Since 5th I've relied much more on templates and RoF than ever. As an Eldar player, I've kissed goodbye to my trusty Starcannons and have welcomed the missile launcher and Scatter Laser into my army.

I also tend to load up on Brightlances too, as people now tend to be a lot more mechanised than they used to be, as you said.

My IG opponent hasn't quite grasped the importance of mech yet, but tends to field a whole lot of armour. I am now terrified of the new Guard Dex. I used to run circles around them with my pretty darn fast army. I am running out of tactics now though...

Nids are not a real threat as all the anti tank will make short work of mcs and flamers to their hordes. Orks are a different beast altogether...

Well I'm (un)lucky enough to have a pretty undeveloped local meta.

The gamers tend to be on the younger side, probably 50% are under 18, and 20% over 30. Many don't have the financial commitment to keep up with the trends.

There are a few 'Hard Knocks', but not enough army/player variation for our local scene to evolve very much. In the end I don't go there often, I'm not an eliteist, but the scene is awfully casual, the tables are un-flocked and very half-a$$ed, and there is a pretty large base of players with unassembled/missing pieces-style armys. Not that there is anything wrong with casual, but out of 15 or so dedicated local players. My self and two others actually have painted armys. I have a fully flocked 4x8 with (crappy) matching scenery, I have seats, shelf space, and fresh air, all things that are lacking at the local 'shop'.

/rant

I guess what I'm saying is MY meta is very different to yours. Mostly because of the level of competition and overall pool of players. So while the face of 40k changes, some of us gamer groups are like backwater third world countrys. We don't see the everyday change, and end up using what ever is availible, even if it's inferior. We have a commitment to 40k, but it is relativly light compared to the evolution taking place in the top tier enviroments.

Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.

This phase will pass, but I don't see it as such a major shift in the metagame, to be honest. Yes, the new Codices have a lot of cheap troop transports, but barring pillboxing, I think that they may end up being more of a liability to the player than a boon, and I think mech is going to be a relatively short-lived trend, much like dual lash and nob bikers were. When the next new codex hits (provided it's not SW or some other SM army), you're going to see another disruption. 5th edition has been out long enough that people have kind of figured out the "hacks", as it were, and will be able to more quickly go to work breaking any new codex that hits.

Prime example: Mech is countered by drop pods based solely on the fact that they can't keep their rear out of danger from everything, and deep striking anything with an anti-tank threat (read as krak grenades and plasma weapons) is going to put a lot of pressure on the traditional mech players to try and find answers to threats in the backfield while dealing with the threats in front of them. Bottlenecking a mech army, as long as you have reliable armor busting that can come in from the flanks or rear, isn't going to be a difficult thing to achieve, and I think that both orks and especially 'Nids have answers to the issue of mechanized infantery, the latter's being genestealers and winged tyrants.

5th edition changed up the pacing of the game a lot, and it shows. Infantry doesn't need a transport to get itself into position, but it certainly makes things handy. every army still has answers to mech, and the so-called 'bottom tier' armies are going to see a bit of a re-working by the more creative players in our midst to actually make them work.


But maybe I'm just some overly optimistic sod who likes to see someone playing pariahs to their strengths....

Mech has been the way to go since the dawn of 5th, it has just taken a while for the global metagame to catch up to it.

( love him or hate him, Stelek has been screaming this from the sidelines for a year now )

It's very simmilar to the old days of the 3rd Ed Rhino Rush just not so focused on assault as it was back then. I love the trend myself as it means a more mobile game, and im a tread head so I dont feel a game is complete without lots of Armored goodness on the table.

So now the choice is Mech or Anti Mech, and that leaves a huge variety of potential builds for most armies, however some armies are pretty much out in the cold right now (Tyranids and Necron mostly).

This isnt a new thing.

Ever since 5th came out anybody that has been paying attention has been preaching about the benefits for mech armies. What did it was the combination of lots of cover saves for infantry and the changes to the vehicle damage table. This is why everyone has picked up melta guns instead of plasma guns as soon as 5th came out. Its easier to kill most infantry with a high volume of shots than low AP fire because theyre going to get a save anyway, and its damn hard to kill tanks if you dont get +2d6 to armour penetration and +1 on the table.

In recent times, nob bikers and demons were the abnormalities that broke the rule. Every single other army had to have mech elements to be properly competitive. Dual lash, for example, just doesnt function as well without plague marines in rhinos.

This wont really change until 6th comes out or the next few releases from GW have very superior footsloggin elements, which i dont really see happening.

As an IG player who started a few months before the 5E dex, even I can tell how the meta has changed.

In 4e, Guard were about bringing massed infantry platoons and only using up the minimum 2 troops choices, rarely using anymore than that, other than using Daemonhunters/SoB as allies. As for tanks, it was all mixed feelings between the LRBT and the LRDem. The Basilisk, I've never seen used, and I'd imagine that if it had been used, it was only used with the in/direct fire upgrade.

In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.

As for 5e IG tanks.... Personally, I don't leave home without my list having a Medusa(no BBS), Executioner w/ PC spons, and a Demolisher w/ Pask and outflanking(I always use Creed now)

And I'm a player that has a limited budget, so I'm far from being MechVet, and prolly wont be for a long time, thanks to all the awesome new toys.

In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.

5th edition IG is definitely not about massed blobs of platoon guard, commissars, OR outflanking.

Dronze wrote:

Prime example: Mech is countered by drop pods based solely on the fact that they can't keep their rear out of danger from everything, and deep striking anything with an anti-tank threat (read as krak grenades and plasma weapons) is going to put a lot of pressure on the traditional mech players to try and find answers to threats in the backfield while dealing with the threats in front of them. Bottlenecking a mech army, as long as you have reliable armor busting that can come in from the flanks or rear, isn't going to be a difficult thing to achieve, and I think that both orks and especially 'Nids have answers to the issue of mechanized infantery, the latter's being genestealers and winged tyrants.

mech is countered by drop pods against people who dont know how to counter drop pods. I know anytime I see drop podding anti-tank anything I generally will reserve my entire army. Try it. It works very well against the pods. They drop in with nothing to shoot and you roll on unscathed.

Orks and nids really dont have the answer to mech. Stealers and the one winged tyrant you can take dont do squat against a competent player. Most mech armies pack enough melta's, flamers, and bolters to counter both of those. I was playing nids at the start of 5th and started getting spanked by mech armies, especially those of the vulkan and lash variety. Orks can kill transports in CC sure, but unless they are packing boarding planks and vehicles once they do that they are exposed. I can make a wall of rhinos that pretty much makes sure your never able to completely surround my tanks and once you pop them your eating bolters and flamers, and orks dont like flamers. Plus they have the huge weakness of being terribly unable to deal with land raiders. You have to get very lucky with a nob or try to get your warboss on it and then still once you do that then you have to deal with the terminators inside. i was actually considering doing orks. The i realised any of the lists i came up with couldnt stand up to my own mech marine army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Danny Internets wrote:

In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.

5th edition IG is definitely not about massed blobs of platoon guard, commissars, OR outflanking.

blob squads with commisars can be a pain. Until you hit them with a flamer or 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daydream wrote:Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.

hmm yeah I would think TMC's dont mine weapons that wound them on 2's and ignore their saves. Most reviewers with half a brain will also say to bring a few flamers. Flamer tac squad in rhino > genestealers.

Mech orks would rule if you play that Deff Rollaz affect vehicles. Biker Nobz and lootaz also seem like a solid counter to mechanized, since the nobz can multicharge the crap outta stuff and are pretty resilient. Of course, if the mech player is bringing a PBS, forget it. The Mech Marine army may not be so lucky, and the Nobz are still pretty effective against anyone else. Hell, you could probably go battlewagon heavy with Burnaz, Nobz and tankbustaz and still do alright.

Blob squads lose to tankshock + flamers.

Mech is tough, but hey, this is 40k!

I just started playing in 5th Edition and from the beginning, every piece of advice I received as a SM player was to Mech up. I guess the new IG codex has really kicked this into overdrive. If you're getting outmanuevered by IG, then something's wrong.

whitedragon wrote:Mech orks would rule if you play that Deff Rollaz affect vehicles. Biker Nobz and lootaz also seem like a solid counter to mechanized, since the nobz can multicharge the crap outta stuff and are pretty resilient. Of course, if the mech player is bringing a PBS, forget it. The Mech Marine army may not be so lucky, and the Nobz are still pretty effective against anyone else. Hell, you could probably go battlewagon heavy with Burnaz, Nobz and tankbustaz and still do alright.

Blob squads lose to tankshock + flamers.

Mech is tough, but hey, this is 40k!

I agree on the deff rollas. But most places rule that they dont though, which sucks, else I'd be playing orks. Lootas can be a pain if you dont pack any long range anti-infantry. Nobz can get whittled down by meltas and then charged by th/ss terminators in marine lists, or at least thats how i deal with them. Alternatively hitting nobz, especially of the foot slogging variety, with multiple heavy flamers in a single turn will put some hurt on them. I know I've wiped out smaller nob biker squads by hitting them with 5 twin-linked heavy flamers in a single turn. Not likely to always happen but it can. Especially when they are on speeders that block their movement and are only hit on a 6 in CC

blob squads with commisars can be a pain. Until you hit them with a flamer or 2.

No doubt the unit is a pain in the ass that few armies can get rid of in a single turn, but I don't think it's really going to win games. And, like you said, flamers ruin their day (especially when combined with tank shocking).

?

Danny Internets wrote:

blob squads with commisars can be a pain. Until you hit them with a flamer or 2.

No doubt the unit is a pain in the ass that few armies can get rid of in a single turn, but I don't think it's really going to win games. And, like you said, flamers ruin their day (especially when combined with tank shocking).

For sure. I played a game monday against someone using a blob squad of 30 guys with a commisar and 3 lascannons. I rolled my LRR + terminators w/ vulkan up to it, got out, hit them with vulkans heavy flamer but then sadly rolled snake eyes for my difficult terrain assault and stood there. I then absorbed a FRFSRF volley from them and lost 2 terminators. next turn the redeemer hit them with both flamestorms and vulkan finished them off with heavy flamer + assault.

Last tournament the guy i played in the second round had a similar set up. I hit them with a flamer and then let my terminators eat them up for 2 turns.

Now a few armies will have trouble with them. But I dont see most of the top level armies having said trouble.

In the leauge I play last week I drew a match aganst a deamon's player at 2250 points with a 3 nurgle deamon princes, 3 units of fiends, scarbrand, and 4 units of plaugebearers.

Of course I had left my thunderfire cannons out of this list.

Despite null zone, I'm still failing to do enough wounds!

T4 2 wound models with eternal warrior are NOT fun go up against.

Vindicators next time.... Vindicators!

I don't (and won't) play Mech IG. My foot list is deadly enough, and I don't even need meltas. Vanquishers and lascannons take care of any transports on turn 1 or 2. How effective is a meltagun when it's 72" away?

Cheese Elemental wrote:I don't (and won't) play Mech IG. My foot list is deadly enough, and I don't even need meltas. Vanquishers and lascannons take care of any transports on turn 1 or 2. How effective is a meltagun when it's 72" away?

Not that great without Pask really..1/2 to hit, should pen, but cover saves and only 1/3 of actually destroying >_< (though immobilisng is handy). Vendettas however murder transports.

Khornatedemon wrote:
For sure. I played a game monday against someone using a blob squad of 30 guys with a commisar and 3 lascannons. I rolled my LRR + terminators w/ vulkan up to it, got out, hit them with vulkans heavy flamer but then sadly rolled snake eyes for my difficult terrain assault and stood there. I then absorbed a FRFSRF volley from them and lost 2 terminators. next turn the redeemer hit them with both flamestorms and vulkan finished them off with heavy flamer + assault.

Putting lascannons in a blob squad is such a waste. There are ways to make the giant blob work, mainly with Straken. In a similar situation in a recent game, my 40-man blob absorbed the shooting casualties, charged, and rolled over a sqaud of assault termies, Vulkan, and a librarian in a turn or two.

I'm surprised to see it took the IG codex for folks to take a good look at mechanized armies. Locally, this has been the trend for the past year or so.

Ironically, we don't have any regular IG players, so I really don't see IG lists. However, locally it's easy to see the following armies fully mechanized:

Orks
Codex Marines
Space Wolves
Black Templars
Eldar
Witch Hunters
Blood Angels
Dark Eldar

Last year, we had two players make it to the Ard Boyz finals with mechanized Witch Hunters and mech Blood Angels.

The change to the vehicle damage chart and potential vehicle cover saves was something we keyed on fast. Armies starting looking like 3rd edition armies IE: Rhino Rush armies.

Now, with all the mech armies floating around, the next areas of importance are:

Melta weapons
Flamer type weapons
rock hard assault units that can take on multiple units

I don't see this trend chaninging until 6th edition. There may be some key components in future codexes that can really put the hurt on mech armies, ala, IG codex, but mech will be here until key rules are altered.

Mechanized has generally always been stronger than footslogging. I dunno where this new revelation comes from.

Here are my thoughts on mech. First I have been playing mechanized BA since their PDF codex was released and that dates back to the tail end of 4th edition. Mech has always been potent, it's just better now in 5th edition due to the changes for the glancing/ penetration table. I don't see Stelek by any means as the main advocator for this style of play. I have a friend in my club who has been playing mechanized Deathguard since 3rd edition. Prior to the BA PDF codex I ran a mix of jump infantry and drop pods. After the new codex was released I immediately switched over to a mechanized list because I could see this would be a lot stronger due to the changes in the codex and rumors I heard regarding the 5th edition ruleset. I can talk about mech 24/7.

let's take a quick sample of the better mech lists out there now:

SM - no one seems to have had big success with these armies on a national basis. That said there are people such as myself and jawaballs who are consistently winning with our mech BA. Mech SM in general have access to all the tools needed... cheap rhinos, landraider(s), meltas, decent assault units.

Mech IG - it's still early but I think it's safe to say that mech IG will most likely be the most popular build for this race. They have access to some of the best mech... Cheap chimeras, all sorts of tanks and gunships. IG can pack lots of melta via veterans and CCS. They only lack in assault and I believe this is their fundamental Achilles' heel. Personally I see a lot of value in taking a big squad of Ogyrns but so far this unit does not pass the national litmus test as a worthy contender.

Mechdar - another strong list. They have of the tools and this has been discussed in great detail elsewhere. It's not that popular but it's strong nonetheless. I was thinking this army would be eschewed in the upcoming Ard Boyz but was proven wrong. On the flip side I do think raider spam is done for now. It's weak overall and suffers greatly due to the new TLOS.

Mech Orks - another strong list that has access to all the necessary tools except for meltas... Maybe they can get around the lack of meltas with their abundance of power klaws coupled with furious charge.

So what have I missed... SoBs are and have always been a strong mech list plus they have the tools. Have I missed anything? G


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I forgot to mention mech Chaos SM... they might be the strongest in this department... They have access to all the tools plus the best troops, especially Plague Marines! G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here are my thoughts on mech. First I have been playing mechanized BA since their PDF codex was released and that dates back to the tail end of 4th edition. Mech has always been potent, it's just better now in 5th edition due to the changes for the glancing/ penetration table. I don't see Stelek by any means as the main advocator for this style of play. I have a friend in my club who has been playing mechanized Deathguard since 3rd edition. Prior to the BA PDF codex I ran a mix of jump infantry and drop pods. After the new codex was released I immediately switched over to a mechanized list because I could see this would be a lot stronger due to the changes in the codex and rumors I heard regarding the 5th edition ruleset. I can talk about mech 24/7.

let's take a quick sample of the better mech lists out there now:

SM - no one seems to have had big success with these armies on a national basis. That said there are people such as myself and jawaballs who are consistently winning with our mech BA. Mech SM in general have access to all the tools needed... cheap rhinos, landraider(s), meltas, decent assault units.

Mech IG - it's still early but I think it's safe to say that mech IG will most likely be the most popular build for this race. They have access to some of the best mech... Cheap chimeras, all sorts of tanks and gunships. IG can pack lots of melta via veterans and CCS. They only lack in assault and I believe this is their fundamental Achilles' heel. Personally I see a lot of value in taking a big squad of Ogyrns but so far this unit does not pass the national litmus test as a worthy contender.

Mechdar - another strong list. They have of the tools and this has been discussed in great detail elsewhere. It's not that popular but it's strong nonetheless. I was thinking this army would be eschewed in the upcoming Ard Boyz but was proven wrong. On the flip side I do think raider spam is done for now. It's weak overall and suffers greatly due to the new TLOS.

Mech Orks - another strong list that has access to all the necessary tools except for meltas... Maybe they can get around the lack of meltas with their abundance of power klaws coupled with furious charge.

So what have I missed... SoBs are and have always been a strong mech list plus they have the tools. Have I missed anything? G


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I forgot to mention mech Chaos SM... they might be the strongest in this department... They have access to all the tools plus the best troops, especially Plague Marines! G

IMO it depends on game size.

Mech SM are average at 1500-1850 because they cant get everything you want. Same as IG, as the points go up their firepower increases very rapidly. At 1500 IG are almost forced to pick 1 of the 2 best parts of the list imo, which is vendettas/valks vs the artillery, its difficult to fit significant enough points in both. But at 2500 you can have 6 valks/vendettas, 3 russes and 4 pieces of arty-thats some pretty intense firepower.

Mechdar cap out at around 1750-1850 for me. Enough to fill those heavy slots are filled with prisms or ravagers, 3 elites with fire dragons or wyches and HQ with uber combat units/special characters. I know that dark eldar cant really spend much more from 2000-2500 than add perhaps some reaver jetbikes and pointless upgrade.
Below 2k though Mechdar is pretty insane because most armies struggle to fit the lascannons in to take down 8 raiders and 3 ravagers for example at 1500.

Only thing you missed were Tau..a sort of dark horse for me, though only in the hands of a great player. Their tanks scale quite poorly, but the suits + broadsides are godly vs mech armies, pathfinders + kroot are amazing utility units. I wouldn't be surprised to see a list with 12+ crisis suits and 9 broadsides at 2500. If they go first and you didn't put everything in reserve you won't have any tanks left after 1-2 turns.

Reserves is a very important factor that has helped mech a lot. If you go second against an SAFH army it does not hurt nearly as much, in fact it's usually better to go second.

Objective based missions mech rules, KP missions mech is not as strong but still solid. To me objective based games is all about getting on top of the objectives first. G

Daydream wrote:Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.

It's not melta's per se, but multi-melta taken in large numbers seasoned with heavy flamers sprinkled with lascannons.

I mean what do nids have as a reliable/dependable answer to a redeemer or assault termies in a crusader to take out the carni's? You might be able to take out one, but most likely not both. Not to mention the speeders running around armed with mm/hf.

I think my horde CC Orks may actually be more viable now. Everyone around here is expecting to face mech lists, so they're going to be disappointed when they realise that meltaguns do squat to a mob of Slugga boyz.