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You should run a squad of jump infantry with a meltagun and deep strike beside the Colussus.

Since I play Codex Marines now (repainting to Salamanders), that option is not available to me. Land Speeders are much better at that and have a longer effective range.

I did Deepstrike Assault Marines against a Colussus touting IG army, and was able to take out the tank between Bolt Pistols and Krak Grenade charging, but throwing 200+ points at a unit that is considerable less is a waste.

Yes, the number of templates and pie plates that ignore cover saves is difficult ot over come. However the issue is that they must either concentrate the shots on wiping out a unit or spread the damage out. But once you kill one unit another one comes right behind it and once you have them in CC that is where most Mech falls apart. Plus, most forget that massed infantry supported by hard hitting fast moving CC units such as Nob Bikers then the mob has a chance to cross the board.

As has been mentioned, IG killed the Nob Bikerz, similar to how TV killed the Radio star.

To me, if I trying to make a "horde" of Orks competitive, it would be 4 squads of 30 boyz, 2 Battlewagons filled with Nobz, a Warboss, and a KFF, and Snikrot leading Orks. You can use the Battlewagons to detract firepower from your troops, as the IG (or other armies for that matter) would have to deal with them or suffer the consequences. Your Boyz squads are large enough to require massed casualties before being able to suffer from PBSs (as if they are not dropping their own template instead) and you should have enough units to be protected against Lash effecting your whole army. You win or loose based of the turn Snikrot shows up. But that army is dead if it doesn't have half of it in CC by turn 3.

The reason I posted this thread was to spark the conversation. Even a year later you still have a lot of players suffering from 4th edition and even if IG didn't create the preponderance of Mech, they nailed the coffin in the other options.

Another benefit of MEQ armies is the time required to play them. In a tournament setting were every minute counts, and every turn for that matter, it is better to have less models to move, more speed and get the game done in the full allotment of turns. Horde is powerfull, but I could only see it being played well if you can get through moving 150+ models every turn and get the game done in 2 hrs.

I haven't done it myself yet, but I imagine Mechanized forces are much quicker to play at tournaments, too.

My armies have been heavily mechanized since I had the means to get the models (I LOVED the Razorback + Combat Squad box, they need to keep that one in stock).

I think the move to Mech is nothing new, just more feasable now. They came out with some good box sets to get people discounted vehicle models ($40 a Rhino has to be prohibitive to some folks). I think anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that no modern military force, much less futuristic, would rely on marching, but be mounted for rapid deployment and protection.

I think that 4th edition was a bit skewed against vehicles thanks to the damage tables and cost of even simple transports. In game terms, it didn't make sense to buy transports, but in common sense terms, it didn't make sense to not have them.

I remember thinking to myself (as a player coming to the game mid-4th) "Wow, these are some stupid Marines, they fly all the way across the galaxy to chase down aliens on foot. That's either a really poor chapter, or a really dense commander."

Costs and performance of vehicles seems so much more on par since 5th edition, I'm seeing games and armies progress along much more logical lines, and games really have that "OH! TO WALK UPON THE BLOODSTAINED GROUND!" feel to them, with wrecks and craters and churned mud everywhere.

Infantry still has it's place in dense terrain and fortified strongpoints just like always, but in open conflict, infantry's place is inside it's cans, buttoned up away from the flying lead for as long as possible.

GeneralRetreat wrote:
I remember thinking to myself (as a player coming to the game mid-4th) "Wow, these are some stupid Marines, they fly all the way across the galaxy to chase down aliens on foot. That's either a really poor chapter, or a really dense commander."

Now now, yoy did not need vehicles to win with Astartes. Remember that during 4th and with the old Marine Codex, you could make a marine force that was 100% Infiltrate capable. I played one with a reasonably high win ratio. Usually the only vehicles in my lists were speeders. Infiltrating Devastators were a royal pain for enemy tanks, because they had trouble finding a deployment spot where I could not shoot them.

Dammit! I miss my DIY Chapter .

I think the Griffon is the better choice. With TLOS is not that hard to take out a Colussus.

G

Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.

12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.

LOVE this tactic.

When I want to feel sneaky, I throw a Locator Beacon on the pod, then have 5 termies with CML walk across the board accompanied by Termie Librarian with Gate. When the timing is right, they GoI for 24" move followed by 2 Krak missles or two frag and 10 bolts. Watching a MM/HF Dread and Terminator squad rip up a tank park in the backfield is a wonderful thing.

12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.

Only problem is you're relying on a single shot of MM to kill that tank. Even with Vulkan's TL, it's no guarntee that you'll be able to pop a tank, even if you do manage to land on target. As mentioned before, a smart player will use infantry to screen their tanks so you won't be able to reliably land within double D6 range. Don't get me wrong, it's a viable tactic that can cause a lot of chaos in your opponent's backline if things go your way, but it's far from a sure thing.

50% of penetrating hits from Meltas kill tanks. That means that ideally you'll want to have 2 meltas hitting at half range (since half range melta averages a penetrating hit against any armor value).

Also, Inquisimystics really ruins this idea.

I've always thought that vehicles should be support only, and that this was an infantry vs infantry game. guess i was wrong.

Another benefit of MEQ armies is the time required to play them. In a tournament setting were every minute counts, and every turn for that matter, it is better to have less models to move, more speed and get the game done in the full allotment of turns. Horde is powerfull, but I could only see it being played well if you can get through moving 150+ models every turn and get the game done in 2 hrs.

Yeah, there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to finish a game in the allotted time anymore.

Now now, yoy did not need vehicles to win with Astartes. Remember that during 4th and with the old Marine Codex, you could make a marine force that was 100% Infiltrate capable. I played one with a reasonably high win ratio. Usually the only vehicles in my lists were speeders. Infiltrating Devastators were a royal pain for enemy tanks, because they had trouble finding a deployment spot where I could not shoot them.

I don't remember anyone ever being afraid of the "infiltrating army" in 4th, especially since half the time you wouldn't get infiltrate in the first place.

I think the Griffon is the better choice. With TLOS is not that hard to take out a Colussus.

What long range shooting are you taking that is reliably taking out a Colussus. If you play on tables that have the good mix of LOS blocking terrain and ruins and other decent terrain pieces, 9 times out of ten, it will be getting a cover save. Lascannons and Assault Cannons are too unreliable in 5th.

Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.

It's a strong list but two things handicap it; the requirement for half of your pods to show up on turn one and the opponents ability to hold things off in reserve. An IG or Eldar Army can reliably put 60% or more of their force on the table each turn, combined with their mobility and you have a pretty good answer to that list.

Only problem is you're relying on a single shot of MM to kill that tank. Even with Vulkan's TL, it's no guarntee that you'll be able to pop a tank, even if you do manage to land on target. As mentioned before, a smart player will use infantry to screen their tanks so you won't be able to reliably land within double D6 range. Don't get me wrong, it's a viable tactic that can cause a lot of chaos in your opponent's backline if things go your way, but it's far from a sure thing.

Any decently competitive list will have redundency. In my Vulkan list I have two MM Speeders just to drop and eliminate the scariest tank on the battlefield, their effective range can also mean two tanks if I am fortunate. It all comes down to threat assessment and risk management.

I've always thought that vehicles should be support only, and that this was an infantry vs infantry game. guess i was wrong.

If you want to win games, never approach a Wargame with a preconception.

I don't remember anyone ever being afraid of the "infiltrating army" in 4th, especially since half the time you wouldn't get infiltrate in the first place.

Infiltrating Alpha Legion was BRUTAL in 4th edition. The skill only cost 1 point per model and could be taken in addition to other vet skills. It also allowed for a ridiculously nasty daemonic speed DP that was capable of a first turn charge every game with 6 S8 power weapon attacks coming at I6.

Danny Internets wrote:Infiltrating Alpha Legion was BRUTAL in 4th edition. The skill only cost 1 point per model and could be taken in addition to other vet skills. It also allowed for a ridiculously nasty daemonic speed DP that was capable of a first turn charge every game with 6 S8 power weapon attacks coming at I6.

4e Chaos was just broken up one side and down the other. For that codex taken as a whole, that's a relatively mild abuse.

For Eldar (at least in competition play) Mech is certainly the way to go. I played a hybrid list through most of 4th edition but 5th pretty much forced me into mech completly. Too hard to protect my TROOPS in a random game length environment.

Lazarus.

12thRonin wrote:Out of curiousity, why aren't drop pod MM dreadnaughts / Ironclads not the answer to tank parks? Drop in next to it, melta it, problem solved. It's not like dreads are chumps.

The IG player I've played on a regular basis castles up quite nicely if you have pods with any melta threats in them. By castle, I mean parking a long infantry line in front of the chims to prevent a strike within 6". This also prevents any MM range on the juicy tanks behind the chim wall. If you DS your Dread and are lucky enough to get a good scatter and/or hit, most times you'll have 2d6 on a chimera...which doesn't mean much. Then you get vet melta'd the next turn.

All pods 'might' have had a chance v. this list if it wasn't for Astropaths. The fact they gave guard the ability to so drastically effect reserve rolls is farking nuts in my mind. Add Mystic/Inq. combos and I don't even see the point of a Daemon player pulling out his miniatures. House rule, no Mystic allies!

Another factor why my Orks went mechanized (especially during tourneys) is for speed of play. I could finish games with my foot sloggers, but I was on my feet hunched over tables for hours in a tourney. My lower back and knees would be aching by the end of the day.

Mechanizing my Orks made my game so much more enjoyable and pain free.

Why would mech lists be more popular in 5th ed? Defensive weapons have now been brought down to S4, which makes the definitive Defensive weapon, the S5 AP5 machinegun....no longer a Defensive weapon. Plus, tanks are now assaulted with rear armour all around.

I agree with the rear armour thing, as it means pulling/bashing at the tank’s weak spots (Major Motoko Kusanagi cliché #3), but I’m really not sure how making the standard Defensive weapon…not a Defensive weapon actually improves the game.

Also drop podding units get eaten alive by Inquisimystics/Leman Russ squadron or whatever flavor of AT firepower can do the job best depending on what comes out of the pod.

Mech lists are very popular and very strong in 5th edition because with the new vehicle damage table and rules for glancing hits, vehicles are very hard to destroy compared to previous editions. This makes them very good at protecting units. Combine that with their mobility for snagging objectives and the like and you have a very fast moving and resilient army that can sitll push out solid killing power through its mounted infantry and support elements.

For Eldar it also allows you to play a "reserves" style game as Autarchs (including Yriel) can influence your chances. Your high mobility means that you will still get to where you need to go.

Lazarus.