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People misunderstand the concept behind mech and assume placing one or two squads in transports make a mechanized list. A mechanized list is a majority in excess of armour.

Its the overwhelming abundance of armour that prevents and nullifies the opposing armies ability to deal with it to the point of being just completely ineffective. If you have 15 vehicles and they have 6 lascannons then welp thats game. You put so much out there on the field that your opponent is castrated and can only fingerdiddle you.

imweasel wrote:

Daydream wrote:Mahu, you've hit all the reasons that I take my Nids to most tournaments these days. Outflanking stealers and TMCs have really gained a boost by the swap to melta. The hive mind in me giggles a little bit when I see an army reviewer say that melta is the only option in a list.

It's not melta's per se, but multi-melta taken in large numbers seasoned with heavy flamers sprinkled with lascannons.

I mean what do nids have as a reliable/dependable answer to a redeemer or assault termies in a crusader to take out the carni's? You might be able to take out one, but most likely not both. Not to mention the speeders running around armed with mm/hf.

I think the major point folks are missing is the fact that a good nid player will be advancing 2 Tyrants and guard with a couple of units of gaunts in front of them while the carnifexes come in the 2nd wave. Move up to shoot the fexes (who are shooting the barbed stranglers and venom cannons) and the hive tyrants get you. Shoot the hive tyrants and they get a 4+ cover save. 2 x 10 T6 wounds with a 4+ cover save is very tough to kill. You could shoot the gaunts first, but it is suprisingly difficult to kill 32 gaunts (who may also have a cover save) and possibly another unit behind them in one turn. And every turn you don't shoot the meltaguns is one turn the tyranid player advances on the objective unmolested.

I don't expect the nids to outright destroy many vehicles, which is why they struggle in KP missions, but getting to an objective and holding it vs. mech has been pretty easy for me.

Shooting at AV14 is a waste of time, the venom cannon shots are better spent on speeders, chimeras w/ command squads, valkyries, etc to suppress fire. If a land raider wants to drive into the middle of my army and disembark terminators, I'm all for it. Sure I'll lose a carnifex or two, but I don't expect the land raider to last long, and the Tyrants will take care of the terminators (assuming you have lash whips on the guard, which I do).

The game is by no means easy for the tyranid player, but I see the matchup as being even, rather than in favor of the Mechanized player.

The army that has the most trouble is Necrons really its just not very competitive regardless. Heavy Destroyers are Heavy Support and so are Monoliths so at max you could have 9 STR9 shots.


I've never seen mechanized not steamroll Necrons.


Orks as well to a degree AV14 is difficult. Shock attack maybe thats about it though. Sure you have STR9 with Powerclaw but that is it.

Hollismason wrote:

Sure you have STR9 with Powerclaw but that is it.

That's all I 've needed to bust up vehicles.

Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.

Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.

You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.

So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.

However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.

Stelek has been saying that for months. Nothing new

Danny Internets wrote:

In 5e, it's all about massed blobs of platoon guard, accompanied by commissars, and outflanking Demolishers or Devil Dogs, some units are finally seeing the light of day(psykers, for the most part) or for some people(like myself) it's all about using Veterans, with Grenadiers and F.Sentries, where their cover is better than their armor and Going To Ground is extremely viable (yaayy, TEQ cover saves) with GBitF. Orders have changed guard ENTIRELY, for the better if I must say. it makes the game more interesting, and more fun.

5th edition IG is definitely not about massed blobs of platoon guard, commissars, OR outflanking.

Yeah there are many more looks to the new IG dex than that....

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think my horde CC Orks may actually be more viable now. Everyone around here is expecting to face mech lists, so they're going to be disappointed when they realise that meltaguns do squat to a mob of Slugga boyz.

No but my 4 big pie plates, 18 Flamers/Hvy Flamers, 4 plasma cannons and up to 200 shots per turn of infantry weapons do quite well.

There are just too many guns and flamer templates out there for most mech armies to fear horde orks.

Oh, and the PBS devastates horde orks as well.

Just because your mech, does not mean you cant deal with hordes.

bigtmac68 wrote:
No but my 4 big pie plates, 18 Flamers/Hvy Flamers, 4 plasma cannons and up to 200 shots per turn of infantry weapons do quite well.

There are just too many guns and flamer templates out there for most mech armies to fear horde orks.

Oh, and the PBS devastates horde orks as well.

Just because your mech, does not mean you cant deal with hordes.

Heh, nevermind all that. All you need to do is field a Manticore.

It's actually perfectly reasonable and makes sense that most troops would have transports anyway. I just don't see a Space Marine Commander going ; yeah guys I need you to walk. Oh this stuff this stuff isnt for you yeah sorry.

I agree with the OP.

The amount of mech armies is astounding.

Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!

G

thehod wrote:

Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.

Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.

You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.

So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.

However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.

Stelek has been saying that for months. Nothing new

Green Blow Fly wrote:Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!

G

thehod wrote:

Mahu wrote:There is a growing shift in the 40k Metagame that has started to make me ponder certain ideas.

Ever since the Guard hit the tables, people have been going more and more mechanized (not that this wasn't a trend to begin with). And why wouldn't you? Units transported tend to cost as much or less then Jump Infantry and are usually troops to boot. With every Guard player putting out 4 or 5 Large "I kill you" templates. With Lash and PBSs totally screwing your units. There is almost no reason to ever field any models that don't have at least a modicum of armored protection. Even Orks are more leaning towards Battlwagons as their previous super unit. Nob Bikerz, are no longer as reliable.

You are also seeing armies reacting to this. Taking meltas and multimeltas in units. Fielding more short ranged guaranteed tank killing units. IG tending to field str. 10 templates over the traditional options, every SM army is a Vulkan list.

So essentially, where 40k 4th Edition was all about the gearing to kill MEQs by stuffing as many low AP shots into a list, 40k 5th Edition in about putting as many tank busting units in a list as possible.

However I see a dark side to this. Armies like Orks and Tyranids can literally put so many bodies on the table, that they can easily overwhelm a traditional army by sheer weight of numbers.

Stelek has been saying that for months. Nothing new

Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.

I think what is making so many people react is how it this trend that started with small groups of players who saw what was coming has now expanded to the metagame as a whole.

So whats new is not that Mech rocks in 5th. Whats new is that the majority has finally come to that realization.

Khornatedemon wrote:Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.

40k is like fashion, where what was once fashionable, became un-fashionable, and then becomes cool retro. Don't get rid of models that aren't effective, because by next edition, they will be again.

Bell bottoms and afros will never be en vogue again.

G

I think saying infantry rush is dead is short sighted.

In a non KP mission you are going to have a really tough time dealing with 250 bodies no matter what you play.

In the same way Mech ignores basic weapons; all cheap infantry ignores hvy weapons.

At 1850 you can deploy 250 bodies with hvy weapons and specials and put less than 10 Kps on the table if you want.

If that doesn't scare you... It should.

Why don't you see it? Well. Have You have painted 250 guard?

Pete

The problem with 250 guardsmen is three fold

A) You wont finish a game at a tournament.. You know this, and it makes you look like you're just trying to ruin someones score

B) Tank shock now destroys you.. Especially wave serpents with star engines (Move 36" first turn then 24" in the movement phase to tank shock the entire army like 5x)

C) Very immobile and unable to really capture objectives well

I think it should be a rule that if you're not a fast playing player you shouldnt be allowed to use any horde army

Khornatedemon wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!

G

Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.

Oh yeah, well I can remember bunkering my 3 man chaos vet squads inside of land raiders, back when you could shoot out of land raiders, during 2nd edition.



Truthfully I think that people without a ton of readily available disposable catch are starting to catch up to those of us that can just go buy all the transports we need. Plus the fact that people take time to paint stuff up and get it ready for the table.

Warmaster wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Kenny and I have been living this for years. Get off our coat tails. Thanks!

G

Umm yeah I've been running mech marines since 3rd edition. When everyone ran them. Whats old is new again.

Oh yeah, well I can remember bunkering my 3 man chaos vet squads inside of land raiders, back when you could shoot out of land raiders, during 2nd edition.



Truthfully I think that people without a ton of readily available disposable catch are starting to catch up to those of us that can just go buy all the transports we need. Plus the fact that people take time to paint stuff up and get it ready for the table.

hehe the best thing is I turned my 3rd ed. army into a 5th ed. one by only buying a few speeders and meltagun and flamer bits. And a vulkan conversion. Bam, instant 5th list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deFl0 wrote:I think saying infantry rush is dead is short sighted.

In a non KP mission you are going to have a really tough time dealing with 250 bodies no matter what you play.

In the same way Mech ignores basic weapons; all cheap infantry ignores hvy weapons.

At 1850 you can deploy 250 bodies with hvy weapons and specials and put less than 10 Kps on the table if you want.

If that doesn't scare you... It should.

Why don't you see it? Well. Have You have painted 250 guard?

Pete

Tank shock + flamers and assaults hurt infantry spam guard a lot. Most of the mech lists being discussed here have a good amount of flamers in addition to their melta's. They will also be much more maneuverable in objective based games.

Kirasu wrote:The problem with 250 guardsmen is three fold

A) You wont finish a game at a tournament.. You know this, and it makes you look like you're just trying to ruin someones score

B) Tank shock now destroys you.. Especially wave serpents with star engines (Move 36" first turn then 24" in the movement phase to tank shock the entire army like 5x)

C) Very immobile and unable to really capture objectives well

I think it should be a rule that if you're not a fast playing player you shouldnt be allowed to use any horde army

A) True an experienced player, but that's doesn't invalidate the strength of the army build. Plus there are ways to speed things up. I run into 200+ ork list at top tourny play and the good guys have there dice all pre separated, and color coordinated, and often on magnetized movement trays. Plus you tend to get top comp for lists like this which makes up for the loss in massacres.

B) There is a lot of way to combat this... Add a touch of Sister of battle flavor here and there and you are stubborn LD 9 or 10 across the entire army. Plus most gun lines will blob squads to make there orders more efficient, thus they will have a commisar. If you fail a LD, he just gacks serg or rolls on a ld 9.

C) It largely doesn't matter in most GW tourny ('ard boyz excluded). They tend to follow standard missions with a twist. The mission that tends to get this list is when you have to defend your objective AND take theirs for a massacre. Usually you just blast the crap out of there troops and then sit on your objective with 200 dudes that are stubborn ld 9. As for Kill points, you are largely blob squads. As for 5 tokens down the center... Well you only have to walk 12"...


Pete

Green Blow Fly wrote:Bell bottoms and afros will never be en vogue again.

OK, some fashions, just like some GW models (Captain Cortez!) should die a quick death and never return.

I played all through 3rd edition with mech blood angels and speed freaks. I played constantly and I bet I can count on one hand the number of times I lost with my speed freaks. I haven't played a lot since then, but I've always thought it was weird that more people didn't play this way.

The only army I've consistently lost with is my Nids and I still don't know what I'm doing wrong with them. I guess I need battlewagons for my genestealers...lol

Kirasu wrote:The problem with 250 guardsmen is three fold

A) You wont finish a game at a tournament.. You know this, and it makes you look like you're just trying to ruin someones score

B) Tank shock now destroys you.. Especially wave serpents with star engines (Move 36" first turn then 24" in the movement phase to tank shock the entire army like 5x)

C) Very immobile and unable to really capture objectives well

I think it should be a rule that if you're not a fast playing player you shouldnt be allowed to use any horde army

Actually I would like to add in another problem, probably the biggest problem. Which would be painting 250 guardsman. I think that might actually be worse than painting 200 orks!

Mechanized murder/mayhem is due to shooting now, which is quite funny since it used to be due to charging out of moving rhinos.

G

deFl0 wrote:I think saying infantry rush is dead is short sighted.

In a non KP mission you are going to have a really tough time dealing with 250 bodies no matter what you play.

In the same way Mech ignores basic weapons; all cheap infantry ignores hvy weapons.

At 1850 you can deploy 250 bodies with hvy weapons and specials and put less than 10 Kps on the table if you want.

If that doesn't scare you... It should.

Why don't you see it? Well. Have You have painted 250 guard?

Pete

*IF* the new Tyranid codex makes old-school ginormous hordes viable again (and I have a feeling that will be the designers' approach), I've got the painted models and will definitely give it a try at tournies. Would be interesting to see how it does as counter-meta. In the meantime, I'm definitely meching up my GCult/Orks.

Regarding time constraints, movement/deployment trays work, but a lot of it is just learning to play fast. My past experience with Tyranid hordes is that I'm not the one holding the game up. I've honestly had more people intentionally stall against me knowing it's the later turns when Tyranids do most of their damage.

Are really able to say anything is the current dominant force?

Mech armies are better now, IMO as they should have been.

But for armies with 4 LR out there, a few meltas and their list is crippled.

For armies with rhino spam, pretty much any weapon can render these things a one shot use, they are just not total death traps anymore.

wave serpents are still overpriced and a little fragile, but they are ok, at leas they are fast.

IG tank hords< honestly, does anyone even play IG? When a IG player comes to the table with 5+ tanks at 1500 points, its pretty much over for him, no matter what army play, no matter what tanks he has. So many points in stuff that shoots once then gets killed in one shot!

And do most people play with one single tree as terrain? If you use the recommended amount and 5th ed style of terrain GW suggests, even Tyranids MCs should be hard as ever to drop. plus even out in the open you realize it takes 3+ vendettas to drop a single 113 point carnifex in a turn of shooting? And that nids bring usually 5+ to the table!

Funny thing is, in 5th ed i have seen a new beast, not Mech armies, and not MC spam.

I have seen the pronounced amount of crappy generals. Since some (IMO most) of the power builds went away and many of the cheezors rules went the way of the dodo when 5th came out, with fewer now than ever before, I have seen just how crappy most players are.

mech lists seem to just be allowing many players to make up for their poor deployment choices and to get their units where they need to be.

I agree with you. Over generalization seems to be in this decade.

G

Warboss Lockjaw wrote:
IG tank hords< honestly, does anyone even play IG? When a IG player comes to the table with 5+ tanks at 1500 points, its pretty much over for him, no matter what army play, no matter what tanks he has. So many points in stuff that shoots once then gets killed in one shot!

No one has been talking about Tank Horde, Mech does not mean Armored Company. And yes pretty obviously there are a lot of people who play IG at the moment. Sure its the new FAD and in a year it will be back to die hards like me when the next three marine codexs come out. But a statement like that really does not help your credibility.

Warboss Lockjaw wrote:And do most people play with one single tree as terrain? If you use the recommended amount and 5th ed style of terrain GW suggests, even Tyranids MCs should be hard as ever to drop. plus even out in the open you realize it takes 3+ vendettas to drop a single 113 point carnifex in a turn of shooting? And that nids bring usually 5+ to the table!

Funny thing is, in 5th ed i have seen a new beast, not Mech armies, and not MC spam.

I have seen the pronounced amount of crappy generals. Since some (IMO most) of the power builds went away and many of the cheezors rules went the way of the dodo when 5th came out, with fewer now than ever before, I have seen just how crappy most players are.

mech lists seem to just be allowing many players to make up for their poor deployment choices and to get their units where they need to be.

Ummm, yeah Im aware of what a Carnifex is and how nidzilla works. As do most people on the board. Insulting peoples intelligence is not a good way to make a point. I dont know if your deliberately trolling with this or if you really do belive that your tactical acumen is so much better than the rest of us.

For the sake of your local gaming environment I sincerely hope it is the former.

Can't wait for 8 track to come back.

Keep it on-topic, Hollismason.