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K guys , take this as a rant / complaint / which ever you want to call it . But surely we all have our share of agitation with hobby elitists just the same
way as there is TFG during the game plays.

What is warhammer ? its as much of a game as it is hobby. Some people do it for hobby 's sake , other do it for game sake . Then the most common type , they do both
to "get more bang out of their money"

Just like some people say "lawl its a game , relax" , there is also " lawl its just a game , please dont criticize how we paint or not paint our game pieces"

I know its abit "far fetched" to say warhammer is similar to chess . But you know what i mean , units represented by miniature / sculpts . They both function the same way,
just some are more detailed and elaborate than others. So if you want to be proud that you spent 100s of hours on your intricate army , you can be proud .
But please remember , there are the other half doesnt see it the same way you do , they are but game pieces.

So before you scoff at other's unpainted armies , please rethink the following:

1) They aren't in it for the hobby aspect.
2) They don't have much free time . Some only have time for 1 game per week , don't expect everyone to have same amount of time as you.
3) Some don't have the proper materials as you. (bad brush bad primer bad paints)
4) Some don't have the knowledge in techniques or the practice. Were you always as good as you are when you started? Nope ?

The list can go on , but basically we all must realize something. "we" are not "you" Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.
Do they look like you? are they your clones ? no they arnt . So why should you suddenly expect them to do what you think they should do?

If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.

There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.

And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.

If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.

Not true , from what fact do you base this on?

It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.

Yes to satisfy the people that spends hours on their painted army. However they also realize not everyone has same amount of time
thus why they are lenient on it.

There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.

Yes, but which require time to search and browse . Assuming they even care about the hobby aspect.

And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.

Like i said in opening post , they could be investing the money in game pieces , as they dont necessarily see it as hobby miniatures.

Im not trying to be rude but , you are sort of pushing the standards from yourself onto what other should do too .

The way i see it , this elitism is similar to : Millionaires laughing at average people , then here comes billionair laughing at the millionaires.

Any hobby has a natural set of "rules" that come with it.

You don't expect someone who plays paintball regularly to not do the research and get a decent gun, or someone whose hobby is working on cars to not do any form of research.

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.

There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.

And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.

I am beginning feel this same way. At first I was not all that interested in painting, more into sculpting, but I took some of my spare time and messed around for a bit. I was surprised how fast I could learn when I tried.

Now on the other side of this, being utterly snobbish and simply critisizing someones army without inquiring as to why they have not painted it is just immature; anyone like this should watch yourself being high and mighty like this, it is a great way to get knocked the @%# out. Not in the store perhaps, but what when you see that "noob" down-town and geuss what he has had a few too many drinks. DING DING! awww, K.O. in the first 5 seconds!!! Big-nerd 1 Little-nerd 0.

If you actually cannot take the time to paint your army over the years that you own it, you are pretty much required to state why; and if you need help ASK FOR IT. If no one wants to help you, your in the wrong spot or your not being naggy enough ( ). I feel it is the responsibility of those who CAN paint insanely well, to teach people to do so as well. If you are so petty that you would force someone to learn themselves to prove a point... well... you need to say why or you are worse than anyone with an unpainted army.

As to the elitism thing specifically, I can do anything you can do, and I can do it from the ground up. The fact that some people have economical means to attain anything they want for WH40k, AND have the time to paint it above table-top standard has no effect on my ability to do so over a longer amount of time. I will probably appreciate my effort more, and that means a whole lot to me.

Yeah, I mean I wasn't saying that you should tease someone mercilessly for not having something painted or refuse to include a brand new player.

But there comes a point where it's just like "Why haven't you at least TRIED?"

Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah, I mean I wasn't saying that you should tease someone mercilessly for not having something painted or refuse to include a brand new player.

But there comes a point where it's just like "Why haven't you at least TRIED?"

Yep. Not all that much to ask when I just painted my first box set in under 5 hours total. I was even able to mess around with some ideas I had. I will repaint these models at some point, and treat them like test models, so I can see full squads with an army scheme, and I can get moderate practice in.

LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.

QFT

If you learn nothing else on these boards, at least try and remember this.

LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .

But you DID paint that squad. So try to take that idea into at least half the armies you assemble. If you have that much stuff, perhaps you should consider spending a bit of cash (if you have it that is) to get some quick painting done. It doesn't cost all that much, and I can think of a few people on this site that could do a great job for you. There are ways to make the exchange of money secure for both parties, paypal for instancce is pretty good. I think Pay-pal may have a "reserve" account for transactions like this. If someone does a bad job... well your Luna, they just won't .

LunaHound wrote:
Well , you 2 are looking at someone that never fiinshed painting a single army. The most i have ever painted (per army wise) is 1 squad of Necron Warriors .

Did you TRY?

Did you make attempts to learn how to better yourself from the experience?
Did you take what you learned from that onto your next project?

I mean, hell, I've not COMPLETELY finished any army I've worked on. They get to a certain point, and then I usually end up selling them off.
I'm working on changing though though, and that's all I ever ask from anyone else.

Manchu wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Its wrong and unreasonable to judge others on the assumption that
they should value / judge / behave things the same way you do.

QFT

If you learn nothing else on these boards, at least try and remember this.

This is what fences and spears are for. If people want to play that way, they also do not have to get mad at those who don't. Either side judging is unreasonable in their own way.

Luna, I can see where you're coming from but the painting/modelling is an important part of the hobby. This is why painted armies are insisted on at tournaments. If you aren't going to paint then why bother with models or scenery at all? There are plenty of good counter-based wargames for people that don't want to paint.

As for the time excuse, that's exactly what it is - an excuse. There are lots of ways to quickly produce good looking table-top standard miniatures. I don't especially enjoy painting and I don't have a lot of time. I work full time (with 2 hours of commuting), I have two young kids and I have several other hobbies competing for my time but I've built and painted 160 marines and 33 tanks in the last six months. It's been a hard slog and I'm thoroughly sick of painting marines but I did it. Painting a 2K points army in a year is not difficult.

Scott-S6 wrote:Luna, I can see where you're coming from but the painting/modelling is an important part of the hobby. This is why painted armies are insisted on at tournaments. If you aren't going to paint then why bother with models or scenery at all? There are plenty of good counter-based wargames for people that don't want to paint.

As for the time excuse, that's exactly what it is - an excuse. There are lots of ways to quickly produce good looking table-top standard miniatures. I don't especially enjoy painting and I don't have a lot of time. I work full time (with 2 hours of commuting), I have two young kids and I have several other hobbies competing for my time but I've built and painted 160 marines and 33 tanks in the last six months. It's been a hard slog and I'm thoroughly sick of painting marines but I did it. Painting a 2K points army in a year is not difficult.

Wow, that is impressive. Good job

Guys , while i do see what you are trying to say (from hobby aspect ) please dont forget what i keep saying.

There really are tons of people that just want to play , and can care less about painting ( and that should be fine , because thats what warhammer is )

I mean , i dont paint like golden demon or anything , but they look ok to play with .
I have alot of time ( look at my post eww.... )
I dont want to pay for painting service ( i even did commissions and people loved it )

But the way i see it , with the billionaire > millionaire > average people analogy is like:

Golden demon > table top quality painters > people that probably that just prime them .

So a golden demon painter can look at average people and question the same thing you are questioning the people that dont paint.
"why dont you get the best materials" , "why dont you buy / read all the best painting tips "

It just seems like you're looking for a way to justify not ever painting anything.

In which case I'd say, spend less time on dakka and more time getting cracking painting.

Kanluwen wrote:It just seems like you're looking for a way to justify not ever painting anything.

In which case I'd say, spend less time on dakka and more time getting cracking painting.

No im not trying to justify myself thats just silly. Because im not exactly a gamer either ( i do hobby aspect WAY more than i play )
I do paint ! I just dont paint one army at a time ( i paint w/e i feel like )

So the thread is really not about me

You asked me , " did you try " well then i'll ask you this .

"Why do some people do table top quality on their average troops , while their unit leaders look way better?"

Its the same type of mentality here no? Just one step up.

Nice on the marines and tanks in 6 months scott.

I have to agree with every one else though. if you do not have a painted army and you use the excuse that you do not have enough time. It is simply that an excuse.

To be honest id be amazed if you had a necron army and had only one squad painted. Ive seen terrible painters make a table top worthy necron army in a week with a little black primer and some boltgun metal. And this when they have very little time at that. Maybe half an hour, an hour a day.

Now granted I don't expect every one to bring a fully painted army that looks tournament worthy. Infact I use to be one of those that played with just built models. Not even primed.

But I do find the time to paint a little each and every week and im slowly working towards a very nice looking crimson fist army.

The fact that in all the years you have gamed luna and not even had a fully painted army. No matter how terribly done. To me shows that your one lazy individual.

And in case you cared to know im the type that only has time for 1 game a week.

I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people

As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.

Wolfstan wrote:I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people

As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.

I don't think many of us here say you must have a painted army in order to play. Were mostly just saying that if you have had an army for a year or 2 and have not even attempted to paint a model. maybe you should just try to do a little something with them.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It just seems like you're looking for a way to justify not ever painting anything.

In which case I'd say, spend less time on dakka and more time getting cracking painting.

No im not trying to justify myself thats just silly. Because im not exactly a gamer either ( i do hobby aspect WAY more than i play )
I do paint ! I just dont paint one army at a time ( i paint w/e i feel like )

So the thread is really not about me

You asked me , " did you try " well then i'll ask you this .

"Why do some people do table top quality on their average troops , while their unit leaders look way better?"

Its the same type of mentality here no? Just one step up.

Then maybe if you feel that you want to focus on gaming, should settle on an army and a theme you want.

For example, I'm starting my Guard army up, for realsies, this summer for my 22nd birthday. I'm going fullout with the themes and models, and dipping a bit into my savings for a 2k Infantry force, themed around being engaged in continuous warfare against the Tau on the Eastern Fringe, in a swampy environment. Cadian Respirator kits from FW, the bulky plasma/melta gunners from 'em to show they don't have the 'sleeker', new patterned stuff that we've got on the Command Squad sprues, and quite a few Sentinels.
Hell, this army is even going to be the centerpiece built to go explicitly with the table I'm going to be starting on soon. Like I said...fullout.

Then after THAT is done, I'm starting my Wood Elf army, themed around a warband that settled in the Troll Moors and have been living there for centuries. The scouts, etc will all be cut down so that they appear to be wading through the swamp, waywatchers will have reeds sewn into their cloaks, etc.

But in response to your second question...
I think people do tabletop quality on their grunts because, let's face it, they're not on the table long enough to really be admired.
But your commander?
That's your idea of your force's hero. He's the shining pinnacle of your army, he/she is their Patton, their Eisenhower, their Kennedy.

You're going to take extra time to flesh him out.

Kanluwen wrote:
I think people do tabletop quality on their grunts because, let's face it, they're not on the table long enough to really be admired.
But your commander?
That's your idea of your force's hero. He's the shining pinnacle of your army, he/she is their Patton, their Eisenhower, their Kennedy.
You're going to take extra time to flesh him out.

Yes thats exactly it though . Basically:

-You dont feel like spending time on something you dont feel like is worth it.

-To some people , thats how it is with painting.

Then for REALLY good painters 's point of view , the 2 are not so different. ( both lazy and not doing their best )

No you see thats not EVERYONE's idea of what the force's hero is. For hobbiest , its the chance for them to do their best.
For player, how they are painted does not effect the out come of game play. At most ,WYSIWYG is taken account for .

Then I pity you for taking what is quite possibly, one of the most relaxing and enjoyable hobbies and turning it into a tabletop shouting match that you could get at home on Xbox Live with some drunk frat git.

Question. Why did you start this thread. Im curious. Don't have to bother answering if you don't want to.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Wow, that is impressive. Good job

Cheers, just don't ask me to paint another red marine!

Kanluwen wrote:Then I pity you for taking what is quite possibly, one of the most relaxing and enjoyable hobbies and turning it into a tabletop shouting match that you could get at home on Xbox Live with some drunk frat git.

Again -_- dont direct that towards me . Just because i address an issue , that doesnt mean its anything to do with me personally.

I-DO-PAINT. I only gamed for a year, thats a few years ago (at the gaming shop) Now at most , i play with my cousin when he feels like it.

Then why BRING the issue up?

I mean, there comes a point where it's just asking for attention Luna.

Golga wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:I'm with you on this Luna. Although I really enjoy the collecting and painting aspect of the hobby and hate to field unpainted models myself, I have no problem with unpainted models. Now here's the part where I rant and upset people

As far as I'm concerned if you are a gamer who believes that your fellow gamers should paint their models or attempt to paint their models then you are wrong, end of. What right do you have to look down your nose at someone for not having painted models. Where is the committee that sets these so called standards for us mere mortals to follow? Wargaming is about the gaming, the hobby part came later, it's artificial, a concept banded about GW. Non- historical wargaming has taken years to emerge from the anal attitutes that traditional historical wargamers had, (not the right colour cuff strip on a 15mm model!! etc) and now gamers want to replace it with their own version of accepted standards. Get over yourselves or join a country / golf club where you can tut tut over failing standards.

I don't think many of us here say you must have a painted army in order to play. Were mostly just saying that if you have had an army for a year or 2 and have not even attempted to paint a model. maybe you should just try to do a little something with them.

Why? If you buy a chess set nobody expects you to paint up the pieces. What about casual gamers who liked the idea behind Space Crusade or Space Hulk, are they expected to paint their models at some point? So why do we expect someone who has built up a Warhammer / 40k army to do the same? They may just like the game and want to play it and are happy / not interested in painting them.

LunaHound wrote:
Golden demon > table top quality painters > people that probably that just prime them .

This just doesn't cut it.

If you really don't want to paint then spray everything in base colour. Wash with a dark ink (or use a dipping product) and paint base brown/green/gray/whatever.

You can paint a whole army in a weekend like that and it will look >9000x better than grey plastic or, even worse, black primer. If you're REALLY lazy, black ink over grey plastic looks better than bare or primed.

If it isn't worth it to paint your army, you should play with people of a like mind. It just isn't fair to ruin (yes, ruin) someone "meditation time" with an unpainted army every time you play them. 2 colors and some wash will cut it no problem. Ask people in your store for help, and I am sure you can find it.

What I said wasn't fully directed at you Luna, I just meant to address the topic with my perspective.

I don't personally know that many good painters that are actually all that snobbish. If they rush you, tell them you are still learning and they should understand. If they don't poo poo to them, who cares that you can impress everyone, I can add details WITH MY MIND. Seriously though no one is asking you to go crazy with the painting, most don't have the time for that either way.

"Note"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOxt3cMTDZE