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Made in pt
Using Object Source Lighting







Major turn off from me is when people constantly edit their posts after quotes etc... I will take my energies elsewere.

BTW embracing a consequence of a act, doenst mean its a sin or a deed it has not negative connotation whatsoever... but in your mind things dont seem to work that way...

Pointless debate tbh.
Cheers

   
Made in ca
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





Inactive


@ wrex:

Yes i understand that part , however among the chaos , some pretty vital details are left out. Leading to this further confusion. Let me try to explain:

For example when this sentence was listed :
"Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice "

An example was followed with "let the painter have their preference and choice to pick a painted army he will find it fun to play with , instead of an un painted army"

Yes that i agree , however the part missing to what i wanted to say is , there are situations where someone rather NOT play altogether.

For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.
NAVARRO wrote:Major turn off from me is when people constantly edit their posts after quotes etc... I will take my energies elsewere.
BTW embracing a consequence of a act, doenst mean its a sin or a deed it has not negative connotation whatsoever... but in your mind things dont seem to work that way...

Pointless debate tbh.
Cheers


Again , whats your problem? you even have issues with me editing posts now? Lets see why i edit post.

1) The thing im trying to quote isnt quoting properly .
2) There is another question for me while im typing , and im trying to address it by editing instead of spamming.
3) When i say spam , im talking about the (automated ependex or w/e its called )

Oh yes , embracing a consequence of an act isnt very negative itself . However why leave out the "rant or btch" part? surely you cant take that part out?





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 12:45:38


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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





Southampton

LunaHound wrote:

For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.



Yes, I'd agree with this example. If it came to a choice between playing against an unpainted foe and not playing at all, I would have thought most civilised folk would take the former option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/27 12:45:11


   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Is "spam" as you put it frowned upon? I do it so I can get a full scope of a thread and maintain some simple formatting w/o too much work.

LunaHound wrote:
Yes i understand that part , however among the chaos , some pretty vital details are left out. Leading to this further confusion. Let me try to explain:

For example when this sentence was listed :
"Respect that choice, respect the consequences of your choice "

An example was followed with "let the painter have their preference and choice to pick a painted army he will find it fun to play with , instead of an un painted army"

Yes that i agree , however the part missing to what i wanted to say is , there are situations where someone rather NOT play altogether.

For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.


This guy... I am sorry TFG, I can't tell you how much flak I would give this person when I play them. Just friendly ribbings you know, but with the CLAW. Yes the CLAW is a registered trademark of lay the heck of the UN-TFG or we will shoot your happy little fantasy world down... DOWN SUPER NERD, DOWN.

"Note"
The CLAW is also known as a super-elite list specifically designed to utterly devastate their nicest army on the field of their choice.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 12:57:22



 
   
Made in ca
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Inactive

Flashman wrote:
LunaHound wrote:

For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.



Yes, I'd agree with this example. If it came to a choice between playing against an unpainted foe and not playing at all, I would have thought most civilised folk would take the former option.


I know -_- and people are so dead determined to brand me as villain that they dont even give me time to respond properly.
Infact i had to repeat many things over and over again , its hard to keep track what i missed.

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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

When I was a club member, we just didn't play with unpainted figures.

Whatever period we decided to play, from Ancients to Naval to SF, we only played a game once we had painted up the figures we needed. If we started a new period, like ACW, the first thing we did was decide what rules to use and who was going to be which army, then everyone bought the figures they needed and painted them.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle







Yes, the game is designed with the idea in mind that you will be building and painting models.

Yes, you can choose to play whomever you want based on your own criteria (in a tournament, it's the organizer's criteria, but you chose the tournament).

Yes, making personal attacks is a sign that you are on the wrong side of an argument.

Yes, 40k is a game and games are designed to be mutually fun for the participants.

I personally only play 40k against women and the loser is subject to a spanking. Are you gonna judge me?

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SC, USA

Yes, I judge you to have a wider and deeper pool of female 40k players in your area than I do if you play with any real frequency. I also judge that your opponents are probably "sore" losers.
   
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LunaHound wrote:For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.


Although I think that's a very limited set of circumstances. If that's all this thread was about, it wouldn't be up to 9 pages. I think you've used "painting elitist" in a somewhat broader manner, and that's what Navarro, Wayfarer, Mistress of Minis, myself and others are reacting to.

You can't say "let me enjoy my hobby my way," and then make digs at others who do the same but in a different way than you. That's hypocrisy, and that's all I've been trying to say here. I think if you (and others) would stop using language like "painting elitist" (and the racial segregation analogies, etc.) this whole thread would be a better discussion and a whole lot less inflammatory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/27 14:07:14


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gorgon wrote:
LunaHound wrote:For example , someone with unpainted model asked the person for a game. The moment he sees the army is unpainted he declines . And proceeds to read their codex. This is the type of rude elitist attitude im talking about.


Although I think that's a very limited set of circumstances. If that's all this thread was about, it wouldn't be up to 9 pages. I think you've used "painting elitist" in a somewhat broader manner, and that's what Navarro, Wayfarer, Mistress of Minis, myself and others are reacting to.

You can't say "let me enjoy my hobby my way," and then make digs at others who do the same but in a different way than you. That's hypocrisy, and that's all I've been trying to say here. I think if you (and others) would stop using language like "painting elitist" (and the racial segregation analogies, etc.) this whole thread would be a better discussion and a whole lot less inflammatory.


This I agree with, but at the same time I do think Luna was trying to be situation specific, and some things were taken out of context.

The whole racial thing... I don't even know... yeah, not really sure what to say. I didn't say anything to that effect, nor did Luna or most of the other posters.

In a face to face situation, I truly believe this would usually be a non-issue. It is interesting to see how much people have to say about this though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 14:35:40



 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

–verb (used without object)
1. to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way;

For anyone that has basic familiarity with english- the above definition may be why you feel people are singling you out.

Using the word in the opening sentence implies passion for the subject- which follows that you'd take a side forthe argument rather than claiming to be neutral about it.

If, you choose to use inflammatory prose, you should be prepared to weather the rhetoric of those that believe you are aiming it at them.

If you are trying to be neutral, rant/complaint could have easily been replaced with 'observed/curious about' and the tone of the thread may have been more productive.

Approach determines response. If you start a thread with a confrontational tone- thats the response you should expect in turn- and by and large thats what has been posted.

If thats not what you had hoped for from the thread- ask a mod to lock it down. Perhaps starting fresh, and with a different approach- ask people what they think rather than making a statement. This lets a discussion flow, opposing sides can more easily see the others viewpoint if they arent made to feel that their own is wrong from the first post.

   
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Okinawa

LunaHound wrote:
a) some people cant visualize how the army plays by simply reading the codex . they have to physically play it.

b) most people dont allow proxy for entire armies , thus A: they have to purchase the army for the sake of even trying it.


Why can't this person solo a proxy game in their own home? IMO, you don't need an opponent to figure out the mechanics of your chosen force. Frequent soloing of Titan Legions (with largely unpainted armies) taught me that a single Mega-Gargant is no match for an Imperator Titan with a hefty reserve of plasma. Soloing games of Starfleet Battles taught me that Starfleet Battles isn't much fun.

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The paint dungeon, Arizona

Noble713 wrote:

Why can't this person solo a proxy game in their own home? IMO, you don't need an opponent to figure out the mechanics of your chosen force. Frequent soloing of Titan Legions (with largely unpainted armies) taught me that a single Mega-Gargant is no match for an Imperator Titan with a hefty reserve of plasma. Soloing games of Starfleet Battles taught me that Starfleet Battles isn't much fun.


It takes alot of courage to admit you play with yourself like that lol *pokes out minds eye over mega-gargant/imperator plasma reserve content* >.<
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

You know, I've written some pretty abrasive things in this thread about prejudice and elitism.

Thought I should clarify something. I have painted armies. I have to use proxies sometimes when I'm trying new things or new units that I don't have, or haven't assembled yet. I'm going to a practice 'Ard Boyz game today and I'll have 30 proxied models; one of those units is currently being painted, the other I have yet to build (all of them having to be custom-built from my bits box). I *prefer* people with painted armies, because they're more fun to look at.

I draw the line at the idea of refusing to play against someone without an unpainted army.

ANYTIME someone is willing to draw a line, put someone on the other side of it, and then say, "I'm better than that group" I take offense and dig in. I have no beef against people who paint and detail their armies beautifully. I take offense (and have here) when some particular bigots think that painting makes them better than another person...makes that other person unworthy of interaction. To whomever the previous dunce was who scoffed at the idea and thought it ridiculous that a gaming "club" could be bigoted for not allowing unpainted armies...we're talking about INDIVIDUALS. Not clubs or stores. If a store doesn't allow non-painted armies in it....easy enough; they shut down eventually because they lose customers, or they change their policy. In those FUBAR-ed stores, there's not an opportunity for someone to walk in and be scoffed at because of their unpainted army....they're not welcome in the first place.

Its when a store *doesn't* have that policy, and some elitist ahole will walk into it with a superior attitude and judge those without painted armies as a lower lifeform that they're unwilling to play a game with. THAT is the problem. That's the prejudice. And people with that attitude are the people who need a brand burned into their head that has a four letter word starting with "c" in it.

   
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Made in us
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Noble713 wrote:

Why can't this person solo a proxy game in their own home?


Because playing with other people is FUN. I'm playing a 2500 point game today against an IG player, who is going to be using square pieces of newspaper to represent some of his vehicles. I *asked* him for the game. I want to see what mechanized IG can do. Not everyone has every model. Come down off your high horse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I are surprized. There iz no Lolcat. Yet.


The Lolcat is my avatar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/27 16:44:07


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I are surprized. There iz no Lolcat. Yet.


'Ere you go!


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Arlington, Texas

This whole argument is stupid. There is nothing wrong with having an unpainted army. I don't know what moral or ethical boundary is being pushed by not. I would rather see everything in the same state (all primed, all bare, all painted) than nothing, but a game is a game as long as a I have an okay idea of WYSIWYG or enough familiarity with the army for it not to matter. I play Chaos and all of my squads are fully painted and WYSIWYG with matching Rhinos, even the ones I never use. I like them that way. Some people might have random color rhinos and random color troops (like the noob Blood Angel player at one of my FLGS who has each of his SMs painted as though they're from a different chapter.)



It does not matter if an army is painted or not. Noone dies or gets hurt if an army is not painted. You can care if you like, but the moment that anyone gets upset about an army being unpainted, you show immaturity. Please disagree with this statement and prove my point simultaneously.

Worship me. 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Here's an analogy.

Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?

It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:This whole argument is stupid. There is nothing wrong with having an unpainted army. I don't know what moral or ethical boundary is being pushed by not. I would rather see everything in the same state (all primed, all bare, all painted) than nothing, but a game is a game as long as a I have an okay idea of WYSIWYG or enough familiarity with the army for it not to matter. I play Chaos and all of my squads are fully painted and WYSIWYG with matching Rhinos, even the ones I never use. I like them that way. Some people might have random color rhinos and random color troops (like the noob Blood Angel player at one of my FLGS who has each of his SMs painted as though they're from a different chapter.)



It does not matter if an army is painted or not. Noone dies or gets hurt if an army is not painted. You can care if you like, but the moment that anyone gets upset about an army being unpainted, you show immaturity. Please disagree with this statement and prove my point simultaneously.


"Game over man... were all gunna die! GAME OVER MAN!"

And I will agree with you to prove your point... On top of saying this, WHY???

How has this thread turned into a way to present no options to reinforce a certain perspective over and over, and over...

Yes you do and yes you don't, but either way I am right and you are wrong. What B.S.

"Note"
And over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, etc...


 
   
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nottingam, uk

This is my opinion (although I wouldn't seriously force it on someone else): citadelminiatures are MEANT to be painted, other wise they may as well be cheap,made in china tat, with a factory paintjob.I think it's ok to have things that havn't been painted YET, but models that will never be painted? oh no, not in my world.


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how about some honest brutality?
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Norn Iron

Kilkrazy wrote:Here's an analogy.

Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?

It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.


You cant cook those on a BBQ, but you can play a game with unpainted minis.

Personally I dont care, I prefer to play painted stuff but have nothing against unpainted, it just looks worse.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.

There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.

And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.


What if we really dont care to be good at painting? Or what if I just want to play and dont care about painting? WHy do I have to?

Hell I come from a time were basing wasnt even required. You say there is no excuse, but I dont see the reason why I have to.

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Velsharoon wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Here's an analogy.

Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?

It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.


You cant cook those on a BBQ, but you can play a game with unpainted minis.

... .


You can, actually but they won't taste very nice, which is part of my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
carmachu wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to do a miniatures game, you can take the time to paint.
It's not like you're playing 24/7, and in the most part of gaming groups they'll require SOME form of painting at least.

There's really no excuse either, given the easily accessible nature of sites like here with painting tips, articles devoted to painting/modelling and so forth.
The only way you can get as good as someone who has been painting for years is to PAINT FOR YEARS.

And if you're going to invest the money in miniatures, take some time and invest in hobby materials.


What if we really dont care to be good at painting? Or what if I just want to play and dont care about painting? WHy do I have to?

Hell I come from a time were basing wasnt even required. You say there is no excuse, but I dont see the reason why I have to.


You don't have to paint your figures, just don't expect people who like painted armies to like your unpainted one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/27 19:07:46


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Velsharoon wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Here's an analogy.

Suppose you and a friend decide to have a barbecue party. You are to bring the drinks and he is to bring the food. You turn up with a case of cold beer, a nice chunky red wine and a medium-dry white for the ladies. He brings a family size microwave pizza and a box of pop tarts. Wouldn't you feel a bit put out?

It's a similar feeling for people who think the point of playing of toy soldiers is that they should look nice.


You cant cook those on a BBQ, but you can play a game with unpainted minis.

Personally I dont care, I prefer to play painted stuff but have nothing against unpainted, it just looks worse.


I've cooked pop-tarts on the BBQ before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/27 19:09:29


 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

That sounds like a ridiculous amount of effort for some pop-tarts .


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Yep, I'm an elitist when it comes to painting. I feel that if you don't paint, you might as well be playing with little cardboard chits, which isn't why I play. Even if you aren't very good, and just slop a few colors on with a nylon Testor's brush, that's good enough for me.

I've also never refused to play against an unpainted army, even in a pick-up game. I've even played against an army where about 1/4 of the models were just the base, nothing else. Wasn't nearly as much fun for me, but I made the accommodation. I do encourage people to paint their armies, especially when they say that they're just not good enough to paint.

There are two things main points for me about this topic:

1. Be nice to people. Make accommodations. Encourage them. Heck, if you're a non-painter playing a painter who isn't as good as you because you play more, give him pointers too. (Yeah, I know that there are at least two women reading this thread, but I'm using "he" as the gender-neutral pronoun here).

2. If you're not discriminatory about certain aspects of your life, you'll most often end up with a lower quality product/experience. I don't mean discriminatory about people based on race, gender, etc. I mean, for example, that I simply won't buy a stereo with even average sound quality; it has to be very good. I discriminate against the average stereo. We all discriminate to some degree or another, but it's become such a bad word in our culture that we fear to use it. Just look at Dashofpepper's post about bigotry; I'm a total bigot. I will go out of my way to treat people like white supremacists poorly, for example. We have all these labels flying around with heavy cultural connotations that prevent most of us from really looking at what they really mean.

So everyone here who is taking offense at other posts, and responding with loaded language, take a deep breath and another look at what we're talking about here. Don't try to provoke other people with your words. Heck, I'll even say this cheesy, overused piece of cliched tripe : "Build bridges, not walls."

You read it, you can't un-read it!! AH HA HA!

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Longtime Dakkanaut






Las Vegas

Image removed. Man, you can't just put stuff like that up, GoFenris! Yuck. - Iorek

Is this better? Its less graphic, static and more cartoon-y yet still conveys my message



...and yes, I'm just as guilty.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2009/06/27 22:00:11


 
   
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Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Frazzled wrote:Being old means you don't give a gak what other people think.


*nods head*

Amen to that.

   
 
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