Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Because playing with other people is FUN. I'm playing a 2500 point game today against an IG player, who is going to be using square pieces of newspaper to represent some of his vehicles. I *asked* him for the game. I want to see what mechanized IG can do. Not everyone has every model. Come down off your high horse.

You seem to have missed my point. Lunarhound presented a scenario that implied the player's ONLY options were to use unpainted proxies at their FLGS or to spend hundreds buying and painting a force that they're unsure about. If said player is *that* worried about the tactical feel of the force they are investing in, why can't they sacrifice one evening of social interaction and figure that stuff out on their own? Most people expect their opponents to have written army lists before they start putting figures on the table. That is a requirement for individual, personal, pre-game preparation. How is painting different?

You gotta square away your sh1t before you come to the field exercise. You should know that.

And I like my high horse: it improves my line of sight on the battlefield. *urges his skeletons forward*

I've played against unpainted/partially painted armies before, usually at someone's house (with the host fielding bare figures). I mostly play at GW stores. If I get solicited by multiple people for a game, I'll probably choose the opponent with the painted force over the one without, as long as it's not TFG. I'm not going to think the player with the unpainted army is sub-human because of it. They simply have different priorities than I do. Likewise, I'm going to attempt to optimize my own experience to be in-line with MY priorities, which is a table full of nice terrain and painted figures.

For me, personally, the "fun level" of gaming against people is not so high that the pursuit of it outweighs other considerations. Like I said earlier, I've avoided gaming for five whole years because I could not field a fully painted 1,500pt force of my army of choice. I'm just as content (if not more-so) playing computer games, but since I'm now running a Linux OS, which as a rule have terrible gaming options, I'm pretty much forced to get my gaming fix by pushing toy soldiers around on a table. If I owned an android that could play Warhammer I wouldn't leave my house but nobody makes those yet.

lorek wrote:"Build bridges, not walls."

Bridges make terrible fortifications.

Yeah, but you should see the suckers Faces when you blow 'em up.

Iorek wrote:Yep, I'm an elitist when it comes to painting.

Given your post, I disagree with your self-assessment, as well as your belief that my bigotry accusation applies to you. You said that you like to paint your models, and that you like playing against people with painted models. There's nothing wrong with that, and I feel the same way you do.

Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs...the folks who believe that their use of hobby-time makes them better than someone else. That's my only issue. Its not painting vs. non-painting; I don't give a rat's ass about either side...but like I said; the first time that someone stands up, points at someone else, and says "I'm better than you, and I'm going to treat you poorly or refuse to interact with you because of it" I take issue.

Dashofpepper wrote:Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs...the folks who believe that their use of hobby-time makes them better than someone else.

So what you're saying is:

If someone doesn't want to spend their time painting, you have to respect their decision to do what they want with their time.

If someone doesn't want to spend their time playing against unpainted armies, they're a bigot and you're better than them.

Ketara wrote:Sorry, but the, 'Ah, you don't respect the view of someone who doesn't respect yours so you're just as bad' thing doesn't work here. According to that kind of logic, we shouldn't lock kidnappers up, because then we're doing exactly the same thing as them by holding someone against their will.

NO.

Go and practice your pseudo-philosophical psychological paradoxes somewhere else please.

Orkeo...whatever, your lame catch 22 attempts have been answered already.

QFT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orkeosaurus, people are welcome to refuse playing against unpainted armies. You can make a little club called, "Wargamers who are better than you Inc.," get a storefront, get some tables, and refuse to let anyone in who doesn't paint their armies. That's your right and privilege.

But if you're going to go into a FLGS that doesn't have those rules, or a GW store, or a community store, or a hobby store...and bring your prejudice with you, then there's a real problem.

Then again, you already know that and are just trying your pseudo-philosophical physological paradox nonsense to try justifying your prejudice. Send me $50, and when I build a time machine, I'll send you back in time to the deep south so that you can practice your segregationist beliefs without equal-rights activists griefing you about it.

Dashofpepper wrote:Orkeosaurus, people are welcome to refuse playing against unpainted armies. You can make a little club called, "Wargamers who are better than you Inc.," get a storefront, get some tables, and refuse to let anyone in who doesn't paint their armies. That's your right and privilege.

I think it's telling that you automatically assume people won't play against an unpainted army because they're too busy declaring themselves the master race you and burning crosses, instead of simply refusing to play against unpainted armies because they dislike doing so.

But that's ridiculous! No one could simply dislike playing against an unpainted army. They must be hate-filled bigots! Not to mention prejudiced!

But if you're going to go into a FLGS that doesn't have those rules, or a GW store, or a community store, or a hobby store...and bring your prejudice with you, then there's a real problem.

Because those stores force everyone there to play against everyone else? It's not their right to decide they'd rather not play a game?

No one has to play a game with you, if they dislike doing so than they shouldn't feel compelled to do so. Especially not by your absurd wailing about the warhammer KKK. Not playing a game with someone isn't the same as driving people with unpainted armies out of another person's store.

Then again, you already know that and are just trying your pseudo-philosophical physological paradox nonsense to try justifying your prejudice.

Only one of my three armies is painted, I myself have never refused a game based on their army being unpainted. I guess that's the risk you take when you attack a person instead of their arguments.

Send me $50, and when I build a time machine, I'll send you back in time to the deep south so that you can practice your segregationist beliefs without equal-rights activists griefing you about it.

I'm sure the people who suffered at the hands of racists in the deep south would appreciate you comparing your situation to theirs.

Kilkrazy wrote:
You don't have to paint your figures, just don't expect people who like painted armies to like your unpainted one.

SO your being elitest about the hobby then? It has room for all kinds- all rounders, painters, modelers, players.....

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Only one of my three armies is painted, I myself have never refused a game based on their army being unpainted. I guess that's the risk you take when you attack a person instead of their arguments.

Says the guy who multi-quotes and responds to several posts without anything constructive? "Responses" are not all created equally. If I say "Do you like oranges?" and you answer "Trees are brown!" You have responded to my question without saying anything. I can't really argue or debate anything with you here because you "respond" to my points by saying nothing, and doing a poor job of ridiculing me.

Pot, meet kettle.

Wrexasaur wrote:(...)If you actually cannot take the time to paint your army over the years that you own it, you are pretty much required to state why; (...)

No, people really aren't required to state anything - at least not in the United States though they try really hard to force people to do things there. I have seen it, endured it, and destroyed it. Now I shall destroy more of it.

.....................................................................................

Crazy_Carnifex wrote: .....................................................................................

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, please stop spamming the thread.

This may've already been stated but...this is one reason why when choosing my Chaos force I picked the Black Legion. Easy to paint and black looks good on anything, same reason my roommate chose the Iron Hands for Space Marines. Are we lazy? No. Are we cheap? That depends...is it better to spend upwards of $30 on new paint or a Daemon Prince/Rhino? It depends on your priorities. All I know is that I care more if you know the rules and your codex than how many coats of finish you used.

Iorek wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote: .....................................................................................

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, please stop spamming the thread.

At this point is Crazy_Carnifex's comment any less relevant than anyone else's? Although admittedly entertaining.

Is this spam, too? Better post something on topic...

I'm also a painting elitist, fascist, bigot or whatever else I've been labeled thus far on this thread.

GoFenris, I haven't called anyone out by name here, and no one has called you anything...but you're self identifying with some words that I've tossed out.

Don't pretend that you get to feel persecuted if you're willing to identify yourself as the guy who will tell someone that you won't play with them because they don't appreciate the hobby as much as you do.

Dashofpepper wrote:Says the guy who multi-quotes and responds to several posts without anything constructive? "Responses" are not all created equally. If I say "Do you like oranges?" and you answer "Trees are brown!" You have responded to my question without saying anything. I can't really argue or debate anything with you here because you "respond" to my points by saying nothing, and doing a poor job of ridiculing me.

Nice cover for your mistake.


I think you missed my response, so I'll write it again for your benefit: Why do you assume that everyone who doesn't play against unpainted armies does so because they don't wish to associate with those they see as inferior, and not because they simply dislike playing against unpainted armies?

Orkeosaurus wrote:
Why do you assume that everyone who doesn't play against unpainted armies does so because they don't wish to associate with those they see as inferior, and not because they simply dislike playing against unpainted armies?

And why do you feel the need to make vast generalizations to attempt painting someone in a bad light? You're clever enough to try twisting my words into something negative, I'm going to assume that you're doing it on purpose. Orkeosaurus, see my previous post. You don't actually contribute anything here except for inept attempts to twist someone else's words into new meaning.

Since your next post is likely to mimic your last post in your attempt to put me down, I'll play your game to play for public opinion: Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't assumed anything about everyone as you accuse me of; specific people here have noted that they don't play against unpainted armies, and have gone on to list various reasons why; ranging from accusing the owners of such of being lazy, uncommitted, disrespectful....

That's the audience for my harsh words.

But then again, you already knew that, and are just playing your normal game. Buzz off.

Dashofpepper wrote:And why do you feel the need to make vast generalizations to attempt painting someone in a bad light? You're clever enough to try twisting my words into something negative, I'm going to assume that you're doing it on purpose. Orkeosaurus, see my previous post. You don't actually contribute anything here except for inept attempts to twist someone else's words into new meaning.

Since your next post is likely to mimic your last post in your attempt to put me down, I'll play your game to play for public opinion: Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't assumed anything about everyone as you accuse me of; specific people here have noted that they don't play against unpainted armies, and have gone on to list various reasons why; ranging from accusing the owners of such of being lazy, uncommitted, disrespectful....

That's the audience for my harsh words.

But then again, you already knew that, and are just playing your normal game. Buzz off.

In that case what did you mean by these?

Dashofpepper wrote:Short of that, if someone is criticizing someone for lack of paint, or not wanting to play with them, or segregating them out of their group because they think they're better...hammer to the nuts for you.

Dashofpepper wrote:Some of you folks need to listen to yourselves - the idea that you'd bar someone from playing a GAME with you because they haven't spent as much time painting as you have is ridiculous. This isn't the southern United States in 1960...keep the black kids out of my school, and you're going to turn around and bring something else offensive?

Dashofpepper wrote:I draw the line at the idea of refusing to play against someone without an unpainted army.

ANYTIME someone is willing to draw a line, put someone on the other side of it, and then say, "I'm better than that group" I take offense and dig in.

Dashofpepper wrote:Its when a store *doesn't* have that policy, and some elitist ahole will walk into it with a superior attitude and judge those without painted armies as a lower lifeform that they're unwilling to play a game with. THAT is the problem. That's the prejudice.

Dashofpepper wrote:Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs...the folks who believe that their use of hobby-time makes them better than someone else.

You make no distinction between people who don't wish to play games against unpainted armies, and people who actually think others are somehow inferior because they don't paint. Presumably, because you assume they're the same.

I'm not playing a game here. You're coming into this thread declaring people to be bigoted without justification. Then you call me bigoted, and when you realize I'm not defending my own position, you accuse me of trolling. As if no one could seriously call you out on your damn crusade.

Orkeosaurus wrote:
You make no distinction between people who don't wish to play games against unpainted armies, and people who actually think others are somehow inferior because they don't paint.

My mistake, I originally thought that you were being deliberately malicious. I was wrong...you just haven't the ability to read and comprehend, as demonstrated by your words here and the large body of evidence contrary to what you wrote. I'll stop trying to illuminate your path, its wasted effort on my part.

My ability to read is fine.

"Bigotry comes into play for the folks who paint their models, and posted here that they won't play with people who haven't painted theirs" is the comment I first responded to, I don't see anything I've missed about that sentence. You are calling people who refuse to play unpainted armies bigots.

If you didn't mean to call people bigots on account of not wishing to play against unpainted armies, you should have been more careful with what you said.

with an iron fist wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:(...)If you actually cannot take the time to paint your army over the years that you own it, you are pretty much required to state why; (...)

No, people really aren't required to state anything - at least not in the United States though they try really hard to force people to do things there. I have seen it, endured it, and destroyed it. Now I shall destroy more of it.

Having a huge problem with it after I have played numerous amounts of games with you over the past few years... WHO CARES, play someone else now. America what now??? JHC get a grip man, it is a WARGAME...GET A GRIP!!!

On that note, I think this thread has fizzled and it really can't go much further.

carmachu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
You don't have to paint your figures, just don't expect people who like painted armies to like your unpainted one.

SO your being elitest about the hobby then? It has room for all kinds- all rounders, painters, modelers, players.....

It's obvious the whole history of miniature wargaming is about playing with painted figures.

If people want to play with unpainted figures, they are in some sense engaging in a different hobby.

As such there is no more elitism about wanting to play with painted figures than there is in preferring cricket to rugby, or ice cream to profiteroles.

Or tacos to burritos, the list is never-ending and infinite at the Taco Bell OF THE FUTURE,THE future, the future, future, future....

"Note"
( )

It's interesting that myself, Luna & Dashofpepper are seen to be acting in the same way as painters, but on the flip side. I can't speak for the other two (but the probably think the same thing), but this is wrong.

My frustration with people who have a negative view on playing unpainted armies, is based on a feeling of it being illogical. If we were talking about TFG, or people who can't be arsed to present WYSIWYG models, who don't know the rules or are beardy, I could understand that. Their actions do impact on a game. An unpainted, fully assembled, WYSIWYG army controlled by a keen gamer, who knows the rules is not the same. It may not look nice in your eyes or mine, but it isn't going to affect the game play.

Further to this, if you look at our past comments, none of us have said we wouldn't play someone. The "for painted models" posters have made comments say that they blantantly avoid playing unpainted armies through to posters so blantant about it, but still choosing, in their mind, to play the gamer with painted models, when presented with a choice of gamers to go up against.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to change my stance as I feel that there is nothing to change. I'm open minded, so what is there to change? That's not arrogance, it's the simple truth. I'm sure the "for painted models" brigade will say that I've just proved I am arrogant by making this statement, but as I said, my point is based on logic, yours is based on your own belief. Which isn't a wrong thing, it just wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

Judge: You refused to play this person because?

He had the nerve to turn up with an unpainted army, which m'lord he's had for over a year now. All that unpainted plastic just unsettles me and puts me off my game.

or

Well m'lord he's been caught cheating on numerous occasions now and just won't stop. It's becoming a nightmare, you have to double check every thing they do to see if they've chested again.

Perhaps this will raise a chuckle and put it into perspective, who knows

Soooooo... someone who doesnt want to play against proxies/grey swarms is painter elitist, bigot, intolerant and all kinds of nasty things its TFG!... Good to know some of you guys are so inteligent and so fast on labelling others...
Couldnt care less of how fraked up your brains are but its ridicule to the extreme.

On that note I think people who prefer xbox instead of ps3 are elitist snobs too or the people who like cocacola instead of pepsi just plain morons nothing to do with personal taste... they are the devil because they like diferent things than me and do it diferently... and if they reject to drink from the can and prefer bottles I think they all should burn in hell. Just brilliant!

Orkeosaurus dont waste your time... the kind of mentality showed will not change and the only thing you will get is personal attacks... you know these guys you call you intolerant are very tolerant.

Then theres the silly situation that if someone aproaches me to play with unpainted stuff I'm stuck to play him or be unpolite and snobish... sure! things do work that way for some. its all black and white in your world... theres no middleground were you have to enforce your intelect and dodge both playing with him and being rude...

As long as no one tries to stab me... we can play a perfectly awesome game. That it is all I really ask, yes all I ask, I can provide my "other" necessities.

Everyone has a mental footrub, and eats a piece of pizza, if you dont like pizza the pizza is covered in aphids.

"Note"
At least I don't cover your mental pizza with spinal juice eating leeches... Hmmm... not bad, I have been INSPIRED!!!

NAVARRO wrote:

On that note I think people who prefer xbox instead of ps3 are elitist snobs too or the people who like cocacola instead of pepsi just plain morons nothing to do with personal taste... they are the devil because they like diferent things than me and do it diferently... and if they reject to drink from the can and prefer bottles I think they all should burn in hell. Just brilliant!

You see, someone tries to explain things in a clear way and you have to go and have an over excited hissy fit. The quote above is very true, I'm just as bad as the next person for making choices based on my own preferences, however they affect only me. However the painted / unpainted argument does affect others, even if they aren't aware of it.

There are comments in the many pages of this post, that use words like lazy, B.S, no excuse to back up the painted stance. I can understand artistic comments about the board looks nice with two fully painted armies on it, but using lazy, B.S, no excuse as arguments puts you into the "elitist snobs" bracket, because you are stating an opinion on why someone isn't painting their models.

I think, personaly, that playing a game against someone who hasn't painted a single peice of their army, could be likened to plugging a high definition playstation3 with state of the art gaming graphics, into a black and white T.V. Yeah sure, you still get the gameplay, but its just not gonna be as much fun(for me). So I can totaly understand someone saying that they would only play with and against painted models. The models are designed to be aestheticaly pleasing(once painted) just as the codex is designed to give good game play. I woulkd take a guess that most people who buy citadel miniatures DO actualy appreciate the aesthetics, othewise one might as well play with tiddlywinks.

Wolfstan wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

On that note I think people who prefer xbox instead of ps3 are elitist snobs too or the people who like cocacola instead of pepsi just plain morons nothing to do with personal taste... they are the devil because they like diferent things than me and do it diferently... and if they reject to drink from the can and prefer bottles I think they all should burn in hell. Just brilliant!

You see, someone tries to explain things in a clear way and you have to go and have an over excited hissy fit. The quote above is very true, I'm just as bad as the next person for making choices based on my own preferences, however they affect only me. However the painted / unpainted argument does affect others, even if they aren't aware of it.

There are comments in the many pages of this post, that use words like lazy, B.S, no excuse to back up the painted stance. I can understand artistic comments about the board looks nice with two fully painted armies on it, but using lazy, B.S, no excuse as arguments puts you into the "elitist snobs" bracket, because you are stating an opinion on why someone isn't painting their models.

I only read your post after I posted I was aiming for the Dashofpepper Orkeosaurus debate.

That'll be the old time displacement / warp delay / cross over that they talk about then No worries

Sorry mate, I do take more time to post and check read than the normal person since english is not my language So sometimes I post and theres new replies etc.

Yes I agree in what you say about expressing opinion about someone army if not asked for... I never do that, in fact as I stated earlier on this gigantic thread I only give my opinion about it if someones asks me to... and even then I most of the times sugar coat it...

Yet most people here make random pointless generalizations about me being this and that just based on the sole fact I avoid playing unpainted armies... and thats ridiculous... also i find the attempt to put labels on people and arrange them inside silly boxes kind of pointless.